I haven't had a diatribe in 2 years, so I'm due.

I'll admit it - I'm a throwback/curmudgeon when it comes to concours.

When it comes to originality, it's just that - original parts and condition. I'll admit that restoration to original condition means it isn't original. I'll take the hit.

But let's discuss cleanliness. And, I'll discuss it the way I was mentored in 1973, which I still hold to & believe is correct.

Cleanliness, to me, means that the judge(s) should be able to actually FEEL the car! Put thier hands on it.

A judge should be able to physically determine the cleanliness of the car, with hands on. If you are portraying your car (whatever breed) as clean, you should see to it that it is physically clean. A judge should be able to either use his/her fingers (or a cloth) to search for grime. If it's there it isn't clean (as in cleanliness). Should be touched, not merely observed.

In my very first "full" concours the judges wore white labcoats & sported cleaning rags (it was PCA 1973). My 914, at less then a year old, has 48k miles on it. But I had been coached by 2 of the best concours people of the era. I took it off the road for 4 months to get it ready. Unfotunately/fortunately, my mentors were part of my judging team. They found little goo, except for the CV boots and oil stained heat exchangers. I won the event & was pushed on to the next Parade (74). In between, I did 2 other concours & won easily, after learning hardcore cleanliness.

I owe a lot of my success to Jon Lowe, who was a perpetual judge and has the longest fingers I've seen. Jon went GT'ing & eventaully fell out to model airplanes.

The 1974 PCA Parade was my first attempt at national hardcore - scared the hell out of me. We prepped for 3 months (914 had been taken off of daily use then) every evening. It was as perfect as could be, but we had to drive it to Pocono. I stripped it of non-critical front end parts & set off. At that time, the PA turnpike was a mess of loose rocks & busted concrete, and was a rough ride. Arrived a day early & spent 3 days prepping. Had non-correct chromies on the car, and I liked them, so we (Janice & I) spent the time on cleanliness, hoping to make up the points there. We did, and won the class by almost 15 points. Mind you, the judges actually touched the car then.

Won a bunch of firsts & People Choice thereafter, but prepped for the Asheville Parade, based on cleanliness. Won that one by 8 points. Judges were still hands-on then too.

After a bunch of PCA and multi-marque events (another 12 firsts & one Best Porsche) came the Reston Parade. This was the only time I trailerd.
I new that this one would be the toughest, and that I would be going against Cole Scrogham, so we worked even harder & trailered.

I came off the trailer & my master cylinder failed. Cole lent me a new one & proceeded to beat me by 1.8 points, probably because of my cheomies & Yoko autocross tires. Fact is - I scored 4 points higher on cleanliness, but gave up almost six points on originality. OK by me. Cole won fair & square. I made the choice on wheels & tires & it cost me another win. But the judges still had hands-on experience with every car.

Now, the judges can only look, not touch. They can't tell if a car is clean or not. You can put all kinds on slick goo that shows well on the botom of enigine & tranny - even the belly, but they can't touch. I don't loke it.

Jon ("long fingers") Lowe used to tell me that a Porsche was only clean as far as he could reach. I liked those days.
Pat

We still wear white coats and are hands on out here in Colorado

In PCA Zone 8 (CA/AZ) they get all in the car as deep as they can reach. It is 99% a no dust judging, but on occasion they will ding for damage or wear such as dings or scratches. I have never seen them ding for originality.

As for point deductions they only give tenths off and I have never seen more than a .3 deduction for a given area of the car, most events are won and lost by a couple tenths of a point.

I heard back in the day you would get multiple points off and win and could loose by several points.

When I did the Parade in Co. in 09 they only gave me deductions for damage, Scratches ding, pitted glass, stone chips. No deductions what so ever for dust or dirt. It did not add up to that much, but enough to push us down to third and then when they added the long distance bonus points we dropped to 5th (we trailered and got no bonus points) even if we got a perfect score with out the bonus points for driving we would have came in third at best !

Seems that if some one drives a lot of miles to Parade they have a very large advantage in the points. The car could be just so so and they could win !

I asked about this and they said it is all about driving the car and they want to encourage that.

Some classes do not give the bonus points, but my car at the time was not old enough to be in any of those classes.

Yep, I will agree on the Points vs Tenths off I for one take of full or half points, and yes I really get in the dark areas. (once had a guy bitch because I took of for grime on the backside of his 911 fan blades)

I didn't judge at Keystone, it was my first parade and I really wanted to be there to enjoy not work, so I was on backup. But do agree, seems like each area and each event is different these days no set in stone expectations.

I just got second at our biggest yearly Concours, it's a fundraiser and although out local PCA put's it on, it's a all make and all model event. I was in the 74-89 911 class and lost to a 89 Carrera that was 100 percent original, with 80k, chips dings scratches ect, very clean nice car but he got Ten! bonus points for original paint! I outscored him in every other area but could not make up that gap.

Given my car's resto status in a "real" event we would not have been grouped together.

Based on the replies so far, and I agree with all, there needs to be some continuity in judging. And the entrants need to be apprised beforehand.
Concours has become so much a "everybody should get to play" event in recent years. No, you either have a concours prepped car or not.

Yeah, I know the PCA philosophy - everyone should get to play. That's wrong & it denegrates those of us who are hardcore. And, it leads to hundreds of people who declare thier cars "concours".

Guess what PCA - you used to have a premier truely concours event, and you have blown it!

PCA had the chance to become a premier concours event with the Parade. Actually, they were in the park until they enlisted so-called professionals to control the event, and made so many useless class designations as to make the term "concours" mute.

Look, to those of us who say our Porsches are as clean as possible (and we may have some personal touches - hopefully Factory authorized), I take afront to judges that will not touch my 914. I have ONE personal touch, and those are my chromies (I have 5 restored steelies, but don't care for the look). I want those chromies to be the maximum deduct for originality, but I want the best I can get for cleanliness. I lost a Parade concours for this very reason & accept it.

Point is - get away from all the reg's. Wanna concours, see the rules, clean it up, try to keep it original as possible, and show up. Let the judges run fingers all over everything (remember, you knew this was coming) & detract for filth and non-originality.

If you declare that your Porsche is a "concours" version, you'd better be able to back it up with "real" placements, else you're just another wannabe.
Pat

Maybe it's just in your Philly PCA Zone Pat?

When I took the Zone 8 Judging School out here in March, they were showing/telling us to get into any nook & cranny we could - we were just admonished to be consistent on what you judge from car to car & class to class.

Plenty of "touching" going on out here in "Touchy-Feely California"!

This mentality drives me crazy too. And it's seeped into our culture like a disease. In my opinion, if you choose to enter a competition of any kind, you must first except the fact you may not win! If you are the organizers of the event, come to grips with the fact there may end up being some bruised egos. Sheesh. This notion of "there are no losers" is nonsense.

To me, you do it because you love doing it; the challenge, the competition and yes, the win.

Check out kids sports these days. A lot of the leagues don't even bother to keep score until they are 8 or 9 years old - let alone declaring winners, losers, champions . . .

And in the effort to 'spare feelings' what are we actually teaching here? That a half-assed effort will net you the same result as working like a dog to improve yourself.

I'm with you, Pat.

Well said Michael. I joined the PCA in 2000. Durning this 10 year time span, I've noticed the judging has become much more leanant and the participation of the older models has dropped significantly. This year, they didn't judge engine bays at the PCA events. New Hope, they did. Reasoning was, people complained it's too much work. I busted my ass this past winter getting mine to what I felt was a competitive level. Oh well, hopefully the attendance will pick up again and they will bring back the older way of doing things. I'd prefer the judges to be overly critital so I have a better idea on which areas of the car require more attention. They still do the hands on here. Got beat up for grease in the latches.. again. lol. I have to say despite all that, I still really enjoy participating in the events and the people. They are always freindly and eager to offer advice.

Tod, Mike & Tom,

Why is it that the locals get it, yet PCA Parade (which SHOULD be the paramount Porsche concours ((used to be)) doesn't). In my humble opinion, when you enter your Porsche in a concours you are saying "mine is the best, cleanest and most original Porsches out there". We all know that that doesn't always work out. But those of us who subscribe to that belief know that we'll learn from our faults and be better the next time.

I WANT my Porsche judged for cleanliness. An that means hands on. Works fine at regional events. But, when you go to, what used to be, the paramount Porsche concour event, all they do is look back & judge on originality, never touching the vehicle for cleanliness. I want the judges to smear hands under the dashboard, reach as far as possible under the top of the tranny, swipe across the heat exchangers, reach into the furthest depths of the quarters, etc. I want them to search better than I for dirt & crud. Why? Because I have 1 or 2 personal non-original items & want cleanliness to make up for the gigs that I expect to get. If you don't touch it, you don't KNOW if it's clean.

OK, I've won 38 concours awards, so I know a little here. Most have been regiona/zone awards. Three Parade awards. Seven are from multimarque events. The only time I finished less than second was at a Parade event. I have seven BOS awards and 5 People's Choice awards. Not proud of the multi-marque events, even though I judged four of them, because they were "namby-pamby" events - "don't touch".

When I was coerced into chairing the 93 Parade concours I mandated that the judging would be performed by historical methods. Then two days before the event that I had worked on for a solid year, they (PCA) yanked me out & made me someone who had no say. Judging forms changed to benefit the "show" people, and on an on. I spent the day, after 12 months of work, doing nothing, except for taking care of the restrooms and concessions. I never saw ONE car being judged.

Though is was a 20 year meber of PCA (41 now), and had worked for 12 months to make the first indoor Parade concours work, I was dismissed as unneccessay.

Then they changed my forms, through out some of my chosen (credentialed) judges. After 20 years of work to make PCA a great forum. They lost me THAT day. I still subscribe, but am bitter and would NEVER be involved again.

Sorry, this got out of control. Bitter, yep. Used to think that PCA was the place to be. I'll ot be renewing my membership next year, and will scrap all references of it from by cars.

Now you know why I'm pissed at PCA. Took me 17 years, but I've written thm off
P

They dont do hands on anymore? They used to clean their hands prior, for us, then touch the car and wipe their finger on the paper in the area that they were judging. This WAS 10 years ago in the only concourse my 914 has been in about 4 months after I got my license (Got an award for it as well! However it was the only car in the category

Ive got to disagree.
It shouldn't be a contest of who can clean their car the best
How does cleanliness promote originality?

Hear what you're saying...but listen to those of us who've made some personal changes. In my case, I wear 6 inch chromies with semi sticky tires. I like the look & appreciate the handling. Those are the ONLY areas where I digress from originality. I know that I'm going to be "hit" for my personal changes, so I clean harder that most to make up for the deducts that I expect. I lost a Parade win because of this, but being within 1.8 points of Cole Scrogham (who won), with my bogus tires & wheels makes me feel pretty good.

My 914 has been maintained as concours/clean since 1974. I have always had my preference for chrome wheels, though I probably have the finest restored steelies in my hip pocket.

To answer your comment - yes, it should be a contest of who can keep the 914, or other Porsche, as clean and originally finished as possible. Make up for the minor personal touches by being super clean. Invite judges to touch. Give them a towel, though no one since Jon Lowe has ever found anything on my underside.
P

You sound like an ad for Charmin toilet tissue on that last comment Pat!

My big disappointment at the Zone 8 Concours Judging School last Spring was that they exclusively focused on cleaning/maintenance issues, saying that Originality wasn't judged at all in the local events - only at Parade & sometimes Regional CdE's!!

My primary purpose for attending was to get a better handle on the originality issues for my resto, but they had nothing to offer on that aspect!

Gee, do you think maybe they don't know sqaut about 914s?

Now look, I've resepected the Zone 8 events for many years, but somewhere along the line they got lost. Best of the clean cars - Zone 8! Hands down. And I love it. But you reach a point where originality has to play a significant part (have I just flipped here?).

Penalize originaliyt where it's fair. Make up the points loss with cleanliness.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can clean a Porsche to the point of perfection. But, it's nearly impossible to (nearly, because some have done it) to make a Porsche clean enough for hands-on judges AND score points for originality enough to win! That's the competitor you should want to be.

I repeat - we need judges at the national level who aren't afraid of getting hands dirty. Originality is necessary, but filth should be taken into consideration.
Pat

I agree on the latter. There were a few there at the class I took who knew 914s, a few knowing 356s or older 911/912/930's & most knew the newer NARP waterboxers & even NARPier Cayennes & Pano's (IMHO) - but they won't judge any of them on originality.

IMHO - the "Originality" should be in 4 levels - with 1 & 2 not drawing any dings:
1. Exactly as stock from the factory per the window sticker/dealer BoS/COA
2. Period correct "personalization" items originally sold by dealers/factory/PCNA &/or as used in their advertisements/car shows/etc.
3. Other period correct personalization & customization items
4. Non-period correct items

With 1 & 2 being considered original & no deducts, 3 drawing less dings than 4.

IMHO - there should be judging specialists by model/year as well, rather than "generalists" judging everything - hands on or not (& IMHO it should be hands on).

I know for myself that I don't know squat about the "newer/Narpie" Porsches, & only a bit less than squat about 356s, 911s & 912s of the 50's, 60's & 70s - so I'd be pretty useless trying to judge any of those outside of 914s, & only "just adequate" on anything but the 73 MYs!

So my question is - are the Parade judges too lazy or afraid to get icky to judge "hands-on" - or are they being told not to do so?

... as we were told not to even consider originality at the local Zone 8 level CdE's.

FYI, we were told to ask the owner to move seats, open doors, deck lids, etc. in order to avoid damaging anything - especially on older cars! .... but that's different than being told not to touch in judging for cleanliness!

BTW Pat - there were some very nice 356 & 912/911 restos & originality examples there at the judging school - so some of the Zone 8ers know what to do - both in terms of cleaning/maintaining & restoration to originality - but they're just not judging on the relative originality at the local level CdE events.

I was just hoping to get a little better guidance locally on originality decisions like we all talk about on here, but that wasn't to be!

Tom,
Like you I'm OK with 1 &2, though 2 is a bit of a problem, dince they weren't Factory applied. But I would deal with those.

I too have little judging of anything later that 944 (which I love). I do have lotsa experience with 356's, 924's, 944's & early (through '84) 911's.

The "don't touch" thing, whith regard to moveable items has long been in effect, and I appreciate it. I once saw a supposedly knowledgeable judge try to slam a 356 bonnet without lifting it first. Fortunately, the owner stepped in (screaming!) & halted the process before damage was done - this was at a Parade! I am of the opinion that judges should NOT attempt to move anything - anything! The owner should be there to answer questions - ask him to open/close something.

But, this doesn't mean they can't explore door jambs, hinges, external engine parts, etc for filth. Remember, if they find dirt, it won't be there next time - right?
Pat

I still don't understand why Parade judges aren't hands-on for the cleanliness?

A couple of cases in point in favor of #2:

Technically the 74 LE's side stripes were not applied at the factory, due to the body coating for shipping overseas, which the dealers had to clean off first. A factory part, but not factory attached.

Chrome tail pipe ends for all engine types - listed in the PET & in the Porsche/Dealer Accessories brochures for every model year, a Porsche part, but never applied at the factory.

Ditto with the other dealer sold accessories by VoA, AMCO & Porsche - including the VPC & DPD dealer installed AC systems. Mine has the AMCO leatherette covered shift knob with the Porsche crest sold by the dealers (which I love! ), & it was licensed by Porsche - but apparently Porsche never licensed the 914 specific rear center reflector also sold by dealers (which was why it was later discontinued).

Another common dealer sold & Porsche licensed item were the side stripes for all other 914s (other than 74 LEs) - whether positive or negative stripes (correct to MY of course), which were widely used by Porsche+Audi here in their ads to sell the 914s as Porsches.

Getting into a #2-#3 gray area territory - what should be the appropriate ding for originality with a set of period correct coco mats - assuming that there is a complete correct carpet set underneath, since they're not necessarily dealer sold accessories today (but were back in the day)??

This last #2 one will get me into heresy with the CW world ..... but front hood Porsche Crest Badges - a Porsche part, which some dealerships such as Circle Porsche+Audi in Long Beach CA put on every 914 which they sold according to Al Weideman who worked there (see his post at my 914S/SC topic in O&H), and many other dealers did this as a point of SOP or as an option. Perhaps more than 10-25% or more of all USA sold-new 914's could've been equipped from the dealers with front hood crests, as a guess. Circle P+A alone could've accounted for +/- 5% of all 914s coming with the front hood crest - no options allowed! So is it a ding, & if so, big or little?

Of import here - at that point in time Porsche had only just "graduated" from selling their cars on the VW dealers' floors, to having their own Porsche+Audi dealerships with the advent of the 914 in the 1970 MY; and their line of accessories compared to other makers was severely limited - even in a day when most every maker had outside suppliers for options & accessories & cars were sold "stripped" - with the exception of Toyota & Datsun. So they too looked to outside suppliers to fill in the gaps. Therefore, these types of dealer installed items were indeed part of the line & far more common practice then, than the full line of "official" accessories available at dealers today. Heck, you couldn't even get a radio then, but rather a choice of dealer supplied accessories - some with a licensed Porsche across the face when also used in 911s/912s/930s - from both USA & European manufacturers of auto audio equipment (Motorola, Phillips, etc. made here - as well as the German Blaupunkt, Becker, etc. models).

Then there are issues about NLA items or upgrades that must be replaced at some point in a now 35-40 year old car, such as SS HE's, shocks/struts, tires (that old size/type dilemma again), rubber seals & body parts (bumper guards, cowl T-seals, etc.), and more.

Other CdE events & organizations seem to have standards & judging for much older & more rare vintage vehicles which allow for these factors, so why can't or won't PCA do so?