I'm baaaack.
Hi everybody. Maybe some of your remember me. I was very active on the 914 forums about ten years ago. I rebuilt my 1.7 fi 73 914 into a Dell Orto carbed, high compression, big cammed, 2.0 liter. Tom Gould, Wayne Dempsey, and I built the motor in Wayne's Manhattan Beach apartment garage. Gill Paszek helped me with the five lug conversion, and numerous other projects like a passenger footwell sub woofer. I also mounted BMW 320i front brakes, thru the body roll bars, and fuchs replicas. I had the engine compartment and body painted Gaurds Red. John Larson of West Coast Garage rebuilt my 901 tranny and helped me keep the car running, cause I drove it like I stole it.
Driving the car was a blast for the past ten years. I blew the engine twice, once with a blown head gasket, and another dropped valve seat, (my second). EMS wanted $800 to fix the head this time, so I decided it's time. I've been wanting to do the six conversion for over ten years, so I'm finally going to do it. I actually started a few months ago. I thought I should do a conversion thread. Six conversion threads used to be very plentiful, but I don't see so many anymore. I would appreciate links, cause I'm gonna need a lot of information, advice, and of course, parts. Here is the car now, well I've removed the 2.0 liter motor.
Bee Jay

I bought this 82 911 3.0liter CIS motor from a friend. Needs cleaning and a few missing parts.
Bee Jay

Bee Jay

This is Curt in Lompoc, actually VV. I met you once at your house but was never able to find it again. I own Surgi's silver 914 2.0.

Will have to get directions again in the near future and stop by to re-introduce myself.

But tell me, who painted your car? I was impressed when I saw it a few years ago and now impressed once again in the photos you posted tonight.

Anyway...good luck with the conversion. Would love to do that myself.
OMG... the sound of those things.

OK....back to the request for conversion threads.

Curt

Welcome back that is!

Here's a link to my conversion thread. A long read but you might find a couple of good ideas in there ...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=44700


A 3.0L is a great engine for a 914.

Hey Bee Jay,

I'm knee deep in my own 914-6 conversion and have done a lot of research since May, when I bought my 914-6 GT replica without an engine.


I'm not sure how much you already know, so forgive me if you are already aware of most of this. BTW - mine is a '78 big port 3.0 engine very similar to yours. The first thing I did was ditched the fuel injection, because it is a royal pain to get the CIS to fit under the hood (its too tall). Go with Webers for ease of installation.

You'll need an engine mount. I bought the Rich Johnson one and am very happy with the selection. Its very easy to mount.

You'll need an oil tank for the rear fender. Originals are $1,000, copies a bit less.

You'll need to plumb a front oil cooler with lines also.

You'll need to re-do your 3.0 engine wiring loom after discarding the CIS portion of the harness.

You'll need a conversion clutch package from Kennedy or Patrick Motorsports.

New throttle cable for carbs.

If you end up putting Turbo valve covers on the engine (recommended) you'll need to machine some of the ribs off so you can adjust the valves without dropping the engine.

You'll need 914-6 conversion headers. I used MSDS from Marty Schneider and had them ceramic coated. If you have the need and $ go with SSI heat exchangers (1 5/8 diameter). Don't forget a muffler.

You'll need to install a front oil cooler and lines, plus a rear oil thermostat, to ensure you don't cook your engine.

You'll need to change your tach to a 6 cylinder tach.

That's all I can think of right now, but it is late...

Oh, and you'll need the 914-6 specific engine sheet metal.

Good luck with the project.

Rob

Welcome Back

I've done a bunch of Conversions, so I will watch your thread and chime in occasionally.

I'm doing a conversion right now - I decided to go with the Patrick Bulkhead mount for a couple reason, but most importantly because you can swivil the motor down. This was important for me as mine is a Twin-Plug and I can't get to the middle spark-plug on the passenger side.

Good Luck with your project

T.C.

Wow, been a LONG time since I've seen you on the board, welcome back and welcome to the conversion-in-progress group

Great looking car. I have info somewhere around the house involving my conversion which is 1987 Carrera 3.2 with Motronics injection. I will see what threads I have regarding conversions per se. Andy's is one of the best overall and great for the 3.6.

I will follow your conversion with great interest.

Rich Johnson, Perry Kiehl, Andy, and many others are great sources of information and experience. Rich Johnson equipment is what I have used on my conversion: throttle linkage, front mount, etc.

Steve Hurt

This project looks like it will turn out quite nicely ........ I will follow the progress as well !!!

This thread certainly interests me as well, I have a '81 3.0L that has a date with destiny too: My 914. Looking forward to watching your progress!

Here are some of the conversion parts I've accumulated over the last ten years.
Velios Oil tank and lines

I forgot whose motor mounts

Engine tin (fiberglass)

1 1/2" headers with 2" collectors that I got from Wayne Dempsey at Pelican Parts.

Cool parts!!!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the engine oil cooler with the 90 degree bend...

You mean like this. I bought a brand new 911 oil cooler from Tom Gould at TC's garage, and John Larson had it modified at some secret location.
Bee Jay

I need a TC's Garage Sticker for my Snap=On Box

This is from another thread that I thought should also be part of this one. Someone is going to be stupid enough, I mean ambitious enough to try this again, and I want to be as much help as possible.
Bee Jay
I pulled my CIS stuff out last night to start cleaning and reassembling. What a mess, old mess at that. Then I went to bed thinking about it. I'm going to need a CIS brain, ($300 no core), a CDI ($300 no core), A CIS fuel pump ($200), a $200-$300 wire harness rework, and whatever else is missing or not working. I'm thinking to heck with it. Just get some carbs, and they look way cooler. I already have a good carb fuel pump (Carter), a good MSD box for ignition, and no Brain or CDI needed. I really wanted fi, but really want to be driving my 914 by next summer, and still have a little gas money. I'm going to have a long conversation with Perry and the Captain, John Larson to see what they think.
Bee Jay

Here are a few things I got done this summer. I had the alternator overhauled, the headers Jet Hot coated, and the fan, fan housing, and valve covers powder coated. Check it out.
Bee Jay

How do you determine if you have to shave the ribs down on the valve covers? Seems like some people do and some dont.

You do have to shave the ribs on the turbo lower covers. You can either take off some right where they interfere, or take some off all the ribbed surface, which is what I do. I just take them to a machine shop that has a surfacing sander (basically a huge industrial belt sander) and have 5/16" taken off.

The problem isn't installing the engine, it's taking the lower covers off for valve adjustments, if you don't remove some material, they won't come off the engine as they hit the inner suspension fastener.

That red is going to look gorgeous! Hopefully everything goes together smoothly for you!

Just a question though.. Why not use a mill to take the fins down? A giant belt sandy doesn't seem very accurate..

Hi Bee Jay! Nice to see you back. That's the kind of conversion I'd like to do for my car. The only problem I would have is the "losing my license because my foot is in it" part.

You pay all that money to get valve covers with ribs to prevent them from warping, then you remove the ribs? I guess you kinda expect that from someone who lives in an area where they can't barbecue ribs, either ....................................


Your turn, Perry! The Cap'n

Damn, I blew it. All I did was surface the stock covers and torque them as I would a head (crisscross pattern) with a in/lb 1/4" drive torque wrench hoping they wouldn't warp.

Oh well, back to square one.

top half

Wow, those refirb'd parts are drool-worthy! Like I had any thoughts they wouldn't be, having seen you car pics over the years...you still have the f-car, you may need to do a comparison.

Perry is modifying my wire harness. He needed to know my gauge configuration. I actually couldn't remember since I haven't driven the car in almost a year. I took the car cover off and took a couple of snap shots tonight.
In the dash I have a combo oil pressure/oil temp gauge with battery and oil pressure idiot lights, the tach, and the speedo. In the console I have fuel, voltmeter, cylinder head temp (useless), and a a/f ratio meter. The a/f meter was very useful in keeping the carbs tuned.
So there you go Perry, my gauge configuration. I guess I need to add a six tach to my list of things I need.
Bee Jay

If you use the CIS (and I would), buy and install a popoff valve in the airbox (unless you buy the aluminum one). It will save you a few hundred dollars if it backfires (and it most certainly will).

Get a 150 mph speedometer too! You can easily bury the 120 one.

Looks like this is going to turn out very nice! I have a friend in the area that has a complete CIS set up for a 3.0. PM me if you are interested. I think he has wanted to get rid of it (sell) for some time. More pics!

AFA cutting the ribs off the lower covers, I've never had a warping problem. I kind of rationalized that cutting only part of the ribs might provide more of a chance for warpage, since you won't have the same thickness across the cover.

AFA cutting them down, the surfacing sander does just fine, as .001 precision isn't required. But I don't do it, the machine shop does it. It works fine to surface heads, so I guess it'll do fine for that application, and it's cheaper than having them milled, which I've also done.

If you paint or powder coat them and then take the ribs down, it gives them a nice look, but what do I know? This is just what has worked for me. If it's your engine you do what you like.

Sorry, I don't do ribs Cap'n, wish I could. There's one or two places in TN that know how to cook ribs.

I've heard about TN barbeque, please send my harness wrapped in it. In exchange, I could send you some Santa Maria style barbeque.
Porsche content: I just got this note from my friend Gill. I must point out that one of my other hobbies is collecting 1/18th die cast cars.

Bee Jay,

I did some research last night. Early 3.0 engines had their cam retarded 6 degrees compared to later ones (like yours). So, don’t mess with the cam timing. Bruce Anderson’s book has a recipe for a nice street 3.0. First, replace the stock exhaust (catalytic converters, etc) with an early (pre-1974) exhaust and muffler. You have effectively done this with the headers you bought. Then, replace the CIS with Weber 40IDA 3C carbs:



· 34mm venturis

· F3 emulsion tubes

· 160 main jets

· 175 air correction jets

· 65 idle jets (you may need to go bigger if you experience lean surge)



You will need a 1978 or 1979 distributor (no vacuum advance) or recurve your 1980 distributor. Buy a distributor rotor with a 6500 rpm rev limiter. The result is a strong engine with a flat torque curve: 210 hp at 6000 rpm, 200 ft-lb at 4500 rpm. These figures come from a dyno pull, not wishful thinking.

If you don’t have a copy of Porsche 911 Performance Handbook by Bruce Anderson, you should buy a copy instead of another 1:18 toy car.

-GILL

I have a 3.0L that I will be converting to 40IDA3C carbs, and I have researched what others are running, here are my findings:

34mm vents
155/160/165 main jets
175/180 air correction jets
55/60/65 idle jets
F26/F3 emulsion tubes

Seems more lean towards the F26 emulsion tubes than the F3s.

I had a long conversation with Perry this weekend and I visited with John Larson, The Cap'n, last night. John has been working on these cars forever and is a talented and skilled Porsche mechanic. He is well regarded and respected in these parts and I trust him when it come to my Porsche. He really likes the CIS system and knows the 3.0 will run great with CIS. He also says that the 3.0 will run good, not great, but good, with carbs. Perry thinks I should go with carbs because of the expensive parts I don't have yet and the simplicity of the carbs.
Right now I'm leaning toward carbs because of the simplicity of carbs and the flexibility of modifying the engine at some future date. I've had this car since 1996, and I've restored it, broke it, and returned it to service three times now. I've owned my Vette since new in 1979, so you know I will keep this car a long, long, time. This engine may need disassembly for a number of reasons sometime in the near, or far future. If so, I would like to have the flexibility to change the cams, or up the compression, or even change the displacement. I can do all of those with simple adjustments to the carbs, but not so with the CIS. I only met Perry here on the forum recently but after three phone conversations with him, I trust him and he knows a little about six conversions. He may have the carbs I need and he will help me rebuild them and set them up for my stock cammed 3.0. Something I am saving for last because logically it should not even be a part of my decision, but....carbs look so damn good and sexy. Open an engine lid with Webers or PMOs and my heart skips a beat and I start breathing fast. CIS has never done that for me. I already have a Carter carb fuel pump and an MSD box, so I won't have to buy a CIS brain, a CDI ignition, or a CIS fuel pump. I know this was long, but I would like some opinions.
Bee Jay

Should you even begin considering the CIS, we have one of the aluminum airboxes here, and would give you a screaming deal to get it out of our hair.

From everything I've read...the carbs will run just as good as the CIS with a stock cam, and maybe even a little better. Now to get the full effect of carbs you have to change the cam, but leaving it stock will be great.

I'm changing over to carbs from CIS not for performance, but nostalgia, ease of use, and if I put the engine into my 914...no electronics to deal with. And supposibly the engine sounds a lot sexier with carbs.

Good to see others have the same dilemma as I do...engine has CIS, but that does nada for me. My dad and others say carbs, others say EFI (ITBs or 3.2 intake) I change my mind daily. Maybe if I found a deal on some known good carbs I could be swayed one way.

BTW I hear (since I don't know from experience) that you can use 964 cams with CIS pistons + carbs/ITBs with great results. I'll have to do more research on it though.

I think I'm going with carbs. For the flexibility and the simplicity.
+Simplicity: I can work on and tune carbs, a caveman could do it. I'd be totally lost with the CIS.
+Flexibility: If I take this engine apart for any reason in the future, I'd like the flexibility to change cams, compression, or even displacement. I really believe that this will simplify the conversion.
-Cost: This (conversion to carbs) is going to be expensive. I get to use my Carter fuel pump and MSD ignition, so I save money there. But I don't have to buy a CIS brain, CIS fuel pump, or CDI box, so I save money there too. Now I'm looking for carb and manifold deals. Will work for carbs.
Here are some more reasons. I want my engine to look like this. My apologies to the owners of these engines.
Bee Jay

Pretty cool Lompoc. My 914 was bought off a VAFB park and sell lot in 1976.

Good luck!

I like your logic Bee Jay !!!!!! Your carb decision has pushed me even further towards carbs on my humble 2056 ........

Velocity stacks ROCK!!!!!

Even cooler, I was born in Pleasanton, CA. Well actually on Parks Air Force Base. I drive by the lemon lot on Vandenberg every day to see if there are any good steals.
Bee Jay

I also have carbs on my conversion, but am rethinking that daily. The problem is that with today's fuels and the difference in the vapor pressure of ethanol laced fuel (currently 10%, proposed 15%), the carbs are going to be more likely to vapor lock. The only way to raise the boiling point of this fuel is to increase the pressure, and there's a reason that all of today's engines are running fuel injection at higher fuel pressures!

With the increased availability of EFI systems (even consider the Bitz conversion for your CIS system), I think it would be a better idea for both performance and mileage. If money isn't an object, PMO has some very nice pieces that let you run fuel injection and keep the look of the Webers.

As much as I love the look of my Webers, I wonder if they are not becoming relics as the available fuels keep changing. You have to remember that the EPA and the gas companies really have no interest in the old car hobby.

Carbs = 12 mpg

CIS = 22 - 27 mpg

I kept the CIS. Butt simple and when in tune, starts first time everytime, even at 11,000 feet.

I didn't know you could change the dizzy in a simple swap as the 3.0 is hall effect, reverse rotation. I have an 007 dizzy someone was trying to swap the drive gears to make the 007 reverse rotation. Stock 3.0 ignition requires a 6 pin CDI .... can be had used for about $300 if you watch the boards.

Brain ... I don't think so ... just eliminate the Frequency Valve (as in take it out of the fuel lines).

Fuel pump, fuel accumulator and filter can cost some bucks.

Fuel distributor, WUR and injectors can be cleaned (Sorry Cap'n, I will argue with you on this one) with cans of Brake Cleaner and lo pressure air. Most rebuilders won't touch CIS mechanical injectors as there is no money in it for them. I cleaned and flowed my own. I also cleaned my own fuel distributor and WUR. Rebuilts can be had on the FD for about $400 and on the WUR for about $250 if necessary. Nothing else in the system.

I'll take relialibilty over Bling anyday.

I just now figured it out. Yea I'm slow, I rode the little yellow bus. But Slits is Glen of Ron and Glen fame. When I lived in LA, I used to ride all the way out to Riverside for your swap meets. I think I bought half of my 914 parts from you or at your swap meets. How you doing man?
I'm originally from the East Side of San Antonio, so I'll take the bling for now. I'm keeping the CIS stuff, so maybe after I get the conversion running and sorted out a little, I'll upgrade to FI. Keeping it simple for now, like I said, I'm a little slow.
Bee Jay

I'll disagree. My 914 is to enjoy, have fun with. As long as it's decently reliable, which it is with carbs, I rather have the bling!

My water cooled, A/C, heater, radio car is for reliability. The 914 is for fun!

I've been watching you build, which seems to parallel my own. Nice job!

I'm running a 3.0 also, with the 901 trans, and was wondering if you had made a decision about which flywheel, ring gear and pressure plate/clutch to run. I know that Patrick Motorsports has one, but I was curious if there were any other alternatives out there.

I currently have the stock 3.0 flywheel on the engine and it appears to be in good shape. Thanks for the inspiration, its a lonely world in the six conversion game....

Patrick Motorsports sources there conversion ring gear from Kennedy eng. between the two I think those are about the only options out there.

With this you retain your stock flywheel.

call Kennedy you'll save $$$
http://www.kennedyeng.com/index.htm

On my 3.0 conversion I used the original flywheel with a Kennedy Engineering ring gear, Stage II pressure plate and clutch disc with throwout bearing. It all fit perfect and works great with easy clutch feel/engagement and handles the power easily.

OK, The Captain corrected me. Your Ron of the Ron and Glenn show. You used to work at Pelican. Remember that wild weekend in Vegas for SEMA about ten years ago? Well SEMA is next week. You going. I'll be there. I never miss SEMA.
Bee Jay

I got restless this past weekend and decided to test fit everything, the engine shroud, engine tin, valve covers, headers, fan and fan housing. I'm glad I did. The fiberglass engine tin required quite a bit of trimming, filing, and drilling. It all fits good now. Now, should I take it off (the engine tin) and paint it black? The current black finish is too obviously fiberglass. I would sand and paint the top side gloss black, but leave the rough backside alone. The shroud will have to come off when I get the wiring harness. How does it look so far?
Bee Jay