Was working to reduce my stockpile of parts/cars yesterday and noticed on a stock 74 car I have that the areas behind the bumper openings for the fog light grills was painted black? Not very well, sort of slapped on. Was this a factory application ?
Im thinking it perhaps was since I noticed that a similar treatments was applied to the (inside cabin) cowl area where the defrost vents poke up.

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Chrome bumpers were actually an option usually included in the very popular ¨appearance group¨ which also included fog lamp grills located in the position of the black spots in the photo. While the black back-spray shown in the photo was certainly not done at the factory, it could have at one time been done by an owner to touch up the original black paint of the bumper and grill area. You can see in this photo that the clean yellow around where the bumpers brackets attach on the outside of the black coloring indicate that the bumpers where probably on the car when the black paint was sprayed.

The 914´s (other than the 6´s which received a black underbody treatment) were painted one color only. While there are probably very few untouched 914s remaining, black in the wheel wells or other locations always indicated, for me anyway, a lack of authenticity and certainly an after market repaint.

I believe the black behind the lights is factory... yes. Same with the pieces inside.

Wish I would have seen this thread earlier.

My '74 had the same messy black paint behind where the fog lights belong. The car is a non-appearance group with black bumpers and no fogs. I spent countless hours removing this black paint, because I thought it was a previous owner who had done it. Oh well, I think it looks nicer with yellow paint showing through.

It's not a matter of authenticity - or lack thereof, since it was the result of a dealer option undercoating in most cases.

My 73 2L had the dealer undercoating - which is what the black in the wheel wells on most 914s you've seen that way - NOT a sign of a repaint, as were many/most of the 914's I know are still the same since new.

The Sahara Beige 73 2L in "The few, the rare..." nailed topic in the O&H Forum had the black undercoating, which Steve G (current owner) had removed to show off the 98/99 special order paint. It was NEVER repainted, but you can see the dealer undercoating black in the wheel wells in the earlier pix of that 914.

Yes, even CA dealers undercoated cars, since it cost them <25% of what they charged the customer & was a great profit add-on.
In the case of our rust-buckets ..... err ..... 914s, it was probably a good thing!

Sahara Beige with undercoating at wheel wells - all original paint (+/- 23k miles - 2nd owner smg) -

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Click to view attachment .... & Steve removing it.

Maybe Steve can answer more definitively if 914s came blacked out behind the fog lights/horns - or at least if any of his was (he's had several since 73 new - mine had been repainted, so I can't say).

Can't really tell from this pic peeking between the grill fins -

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Maybe Tod914 can answer on the ones he's restored - &/or Pat G. - if theirs had black paint behind the grills?

The black paint sprayed behind the grills isn't undercoating. Like I said before, mine had it, and my car was never undercoated from the dealer.

Another SoCal original paint 71 914/4 with <61k mile - with undercoated wheel wells, but I can't tell on the grills. I'll ask my buddy who owns this to look behind the grills with a flashlight to see, when I see him & the 914 again in a couple of weeks.

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Can't really tell in these pix either, cuz it's dark back behind there anyway.

Two different subjects Jon -
black paint behind the bumpers,
& black in the wheel wells - which is usually undercoating.

I was responding to both sarastro's comment about the black wheel wells being unauthentic & a sign of possible repainting ....
- as well as to the original black behind the fogs/horns question.

I'll post here again when I get a chance to check out my Bud's red 71 above, and maybe Steve G./smg, Tod914 & Pat can weigh in here in the meantime.

I can see why the factory might black paint out the behind the grill area, so the grills don't show a "spotlight" of color beaming out (so to speak), but that doesn't mean that they necessarily did so.

They did.

I find this whole "black paint behind the empty grills" thing interesting because I've know many owners of early 914 without the appearance group who had blazing color appearing behind the grills. I'm going back to the very early 70' here, and they were all non-black (i.e., body color) behind the grills of non-app group cars.

I have a hard time believing that the factory, which was trying desperately to make a profit on these cars, would have even known which car (beforehand) would have fogs. Each car had a build sheet. Some had this, or that optional equipment. Until it moved down to the bumper department, no one would have cared/noticed whether it was going to get fogs. Spending the extra buck to "blacken" the non-fog areas - not likely in my book.
Pat

Pat your trying to make the case that there was a distinction between APP & non-APP cars as far as an assembly line goes but if your recall ALL cars up to MY 75 had bumpers with grill openings, some with lights some not.
Im not sure about MY cars prior to 73 but it stands to reason that as soon as significant APP group cars started rolling off the line ALL cars could have had this treatment.

I have seen quite a few 914's with this black paint on them. I can also say the paint was always brushed on, and that on early 911's, the insides of the doors were brush painted from the factory with black paint. I have seen a couple totally original cars that brush strokes were more than apparent on. My reason for bringing up 911 doors is that the factory did indeed brush black paint on in some cases, so why not in this case

I've seen some non-fog light 70-74 914s with the area behind the two bumper grills painted black and many without the black paint. If the factory did it, for some reason they didn't do them all. I agree with Pat, that 914's without the fog light option, the body color behind the bumper really showed through and looked kind of unfinished. Its highly likey that many owers didn't like the look and either asked their dealer to black it out or did it themselves. Remember.......these cars have been around for over 40 years now and theirs no telling who, when or what people did to there cars in the last 4 decades. I'll have to ask my friend that worked for Porsche for 35 years including the 70's and find out what he remembers. He is a great source of information. He's the one that told me that all the new 1974 LE's that came into his dealership came in without the negative PORSCHE stripe installed. He remembers well because at the time, it was his job to install them.

None of the eight 914s I owned over the years had the area behind the front bumper grills painted black. But, all my 914s were delivered from the factory with fog lights and dual horns.

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As seen in the picture above... it looks especially bad on non-fog cars. No light to breakup the color shining through. Precisely "why" they started doing it I would imagine. There's some pics hiding out there that show them without the bumper... painted from the factory. I'm too old to remember or care where.

As Rich mentioned in his first post, the inside of the car received the same treatment on the longs etc. So - highly likely in my book.

Though this "may" be so, the factory didn't start such practice until after the 72 model. My 72, which is very late production has no extraneous paint behind the grills, on the logs, under the dash, etc. Everything is bahia red, though thin in spots under the dash.

Personally, I like the view of color behind the non-fog grills. Body painted bumpers......that's a different perspective.
P

I dis-agree ...

My '70 /4 had a blacked out dash sub-frame ...

I think it's as confusing as to why the hood badge was there and not there......it depends on who was at work that day and what THEY DID on their own. Or why some cars had TWO side mirrors and others ONE.

I imagine one person on the assembly line did it because they thought it looked better, a HANS Vs. FRANS issue. my .02

Is that possible?

Has anyone looked up or requested Porsche for employment records for this time to see if we can contact anyone who may have worked the assembly lines on 914's?

I have had 4 914's, three of which have been real sixes.

AFAIK, the 914 never came with a hood badge from the factory or a passenger side mirror. Both were often dealer added options.

Well that was weird - when I added the 1st (5th) pic to this post, it added it into the topic instead. Sorry 'bout that!

Go to the next post first, then read this one as it's continuation.

... 72 MY Accessory Brochure - continued:

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Last 3 will be at the post after the next post ....

... well now, that is excepting the 2 914-8's, 11 916s (914+2), & a couple of the early prototype/promo 914-6's used for the new model release promos - the pix of which we've all seen.

According to Al Weideman when he posted in my "914S" topic here in O&H, Circle Porsche+Audi in Long Beach CA - they put the badge on all 914s as soon as they came into the dealership, so every 914 sold new there came with a front hood/trunk lid badge. I'm sure that there were also other dealerships back in the day who likewise put front badges on some or all 914s, then of course added the appropriate marked-up price to the "dealer invoice" for the cars, with an appropriate profit margin of course!

Then according to another recent topic on side mirrors by a Nord or Swede Teener IIRC, the passenger side mirrors were required equipment in Sweden & perhaps other countries (as opposed to Pat's "Norwegian Equipment" option on his COA ).

ALL 914 passenger doors 70-76 & replacements were built with the threaded receiver nuts welded under the top skin/sheetmetal to accept the R-side mirror as an option available for any dealer.

So those facts beg the question too, if somebody could factory order a 914 with that optional R-side mirror installed at the factory, & delivered either there for European pick-up, or delivered to the country of purchase.

IMHO, we cannot say for a fact that they never came with passenger side mirrors from the factory, period.

The front hood badges were not on 914s - except those few exceptions, but were yet another available dealer option (although not listed in section 810 of the PET 914 Parts Catalog) which were sometimes put on 914s with no choice to the buyer.

Kinda muddies the water a bit, doesn't it!

As to checking the paint behind the foglight/horn grills on my buddy's original red 71, our PCA OCR Porsches & Doughnuts got rained out today, so I'll have to check that later.

But given the above R-side mirror & hood badge issues, another possibility to consider - in addition to it being either a factory paint or owner modification - is that it could've been a deal modification at buyer request &/or S.O.P. (depending upon the dealer.

Keep in mind that the dealers offered many options & accessories to personalize 914s & other Porsches of the day, and in the 74 MY around the time of the LEs' release, they actually gave it a formal name: "Porsche Personalization Program" - wherein you could create an "LE look-alike" from a factory provided accessory package.

Here's an example of the 72 MY Accessory Brochure from the dealers which I found at Bowlsby's 914 website:

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continued ....

... 72 MY Accessory Brochure - continued:

(FYI - this is the #3 of the 3 posts, with the one just prior as #1, & the one before that as #2, due to a posting glitch or my mistake, as explained at #2 out-of-order.)

EDIT: Note that at item "A" on page 9 below, the Porsche+Audi dealers/Porsche USA recommended the addition of a passenger side mirror with the rear deck luggage rack. They also note that it is required in some states (such as CA), probably due to the obstruction of the load on the rear rack blocking the rearview interior mirror (similar to when towing a trailer).

Ergo, this first pic shows that the Porsche factory supplied optional passenger side mirror was both available from dealers "back in the day", & "recommended" in certain instances by USA dealerships at least.

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Note that the AMCO Walnut Shift Knob with the shift patterns or Porsche Crest were included in this brochure, and they were also offered leather covered by the dealers. My 73 2L came from the dealer that way according to the PO/OO when I bought it in 12/75. I have a 73 R&T or MT ad for these at $5!!!!

Also note that the side stripes, chrome tailpipe extensions, luggage racks, bumper overriders, AC, Mag Wheels, etc. on these "official" Porsche options offered to both personalize the 914s (& 911s), as well as to help meet the unique customer demands of the USA buyers - who purchased roughly 60% of the 914 production.

> per edit above, I stand corrected: [I don't see the side mirrors, but I have purchased one for mine with the "official" slightly convex glass from Porsche.]

Also no note of hood badges - but we all know the dealers carried them for 911s/912s, & would happily stick them on your 914 for you - at an additional cost of course.

As to the subject here - no note of blacking-out behind the horn/foglight grills, but that doesn't preclude it being done by dealers.

Did you say something Tom?

Yup, TMI as usual Eric!

.... whaddaya expect, it's been raining here all day, can't work on 914, can't work on house projects, bored stiff, & now USC is screwing up vs. Oregon State!

Tom, Tom,Tom - what is the purpose here?

Porsche badges WERE istalled by unssrupulous dealers (ooh, imagine that in the early 70's), but they weren't Factory! When I bought my 72, the dealer would have put a Chevy bowtie on the hood if I asked for it!

As I have found reently, my "Norwegian" option was having the passenher side nuts to hold the mirrrot installed under the door skin. I could install the "Norwegian" mirror in ten minutes if I could make myself drill a hole.

Finally, I'll say this - just because a Porsche dealer made non-factory add-ons available doesn't make them Factory! Makes them add-on. The Factory ski rack is different, but the ADDCO bars & liggage racks, etc. are NOT Factory options.

I repeat -what is the purpose here?
Pat

Pat, my purpose was responding to the added questions in this post on "raccoon eyes" blackout behind the foglight/horn grills, having to do with whether p-side mirrors & hood badges were factory options. Both were factory parts, but whether factory mounted varied.

As discussed elsewhere here, hood badges were only put on certain special & pre-production 914s by the factory, often by dealers & owners.

Passenger side mirrors were also a factory part provided on 914s in some Scandanavian countries as required equipment according to several sources, & as an option on any other 914 by a dealer - or I suspect by the factory if a buyer special ordered a 914 in a 98 color say & requested the R side mirror.

I would recheck your source on the Norwegian Eqpt. option being just the nuts in the door, because AFAIK those are in every L & R door, even the replacements sold for body work.

It may have been the optional right side mirror code, but that's still in error on your 914, which if you call Kristen Rochford at PCNA & ask for the actual option "M" no. for you to research, we could probably track it down with Jeff Bowlsby's list. If she won't help you, then PM or email me & I'll send you contact info for the GM/VP of customer service at PCNA who helped straighten out their code error on my interior color, etc.

Lastly, the Porsche factory outsourced/licensed many accessories which were approved for resale in the dealerships - as did many Euro mfgrs. in the 60's & 70's, and as they do with other OEM parts. Is a 2.0 muffler not an original Porsche part because it's a Leistriz or Bischoff OEM part, or a Bosch injection part, or Pedrini, Mahle or Fuchs wheels? .... NO! Porsche at that time had neither the resources, factory space, nor interest to produce every little option, accessory or other parts in-house, so they essentially franchised the operations for them to places like Bosch, Mahle, Leistritz, Bischoff, VoA, DPD, & yes - even AMCO - as did BMW, Alpha, MG, Ferrari, etc. with AMCO.

When parts were not approved by Porsche - especially when they used the script &/or crest, then the shut them down via legal action, as they did with the aftermarket rear reflector for the 914 not so approved by Porsche.

The 72 Porsche accessories & options brochure which I posted listed a variety of parts which were available from the USA dealerships for 911s & 914s, which IMHO are period correct, Porsche approved, & appropriate on a 914 so equipped during the sale or shortly after. A good example - radios, since none were included from the factory, but all added by those unscrupulous dealers (as VW did on my 88 Westy when I bought it new btw, & the entire Westfalia option is outsourced to Westfalia Werks).

So the point is ...... it illustrates what options & accessories were available from Porsche via its dealers in the USA in the 72 MY - including the p-side mirror which a poster above asked about. To say that if a car wasn't exactly equipped with a particular Porsche part when it left the factory is a test beyond what even PCA has in its CdE rules.

BTW - I do NOT believe that dealers who put Porsche hood badges on 914s were unscrupulous, but one agreeing to do a Chevy Bow-tie would've been!

Let me know if you need the PCNA guy's name to get your COA straightened out.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

I have never seen the factory black out and this picture doesn't show it that I can see, but who knows as these cars were hand built with lots of variations.

Nothing in these factory & ad/promo pix looking at or up into the grills shows on these either .....

This 1st could be light body color or reflection off the grill vanes on the L grill -
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.

This one also shows the oft desired "Norwegian Equipment" option!
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BTW - this is one of the early factory promotional/pre-release 914's sporting the later deleted hood badge - but color behind the grill is hard to ascertain ....
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.

Although not clear black is behind the grills here either, she does have black-out around her eyes!
IIRC this was one factory prototype to manually get your light(s) to pop-up!!??
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.

Also a quick perusal of both Brian Long's & Das Grosse Buch turned up no factory nor ad/promo photos indicating black behind the grills, but none that showed them clearly in any case either.

... and here's that orange promo of that early prototype 914-6 with & without hood badge (note that the front TS lenses are the different raised edge prototype ones in both cases), in both cases the horns are visible but the rest is in shadow, so one cannot see any color through the gloom. Also, cars used for ads & promos are heavily modified to "look good" on camera, & most today even have their windows black tinted out all around.

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Ditto with this one ....

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...and these ....

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Neither of the above in a easy to see color will show through the grills, even on a super zoom, due to the shadow effect in all probability. Someone would have to have a pic with direct light onto/into the grills to show up on a vintage period ad or photo.

Maybe someone else has one in their collection?

The search goes on .......

I think the purpose was to COMPLETELY this thread?

Rich, I was only responding to the extra originality questions which others posed on hood badges & pass. side mirrors with historical documents on the availability of those from dealers. No ill intent was meant, which you should know since we've spoken on the phone before. If anything, I suffer from terminal TMI!!!!

Back to your original question on foglights, my buddy with the original Bahia Red 71 914/4 (pic below) came over to shoot the shit this am, & we looked behind the grills at it's still original paint but no black-out (he's the original owner for all 61k miles). BTW others, his hood badge was done by the dealer at the request of the initial buyer who ordered some personalization items (incl. those Western Wheels), and then backed out when Jerry bought it as next in line buyer.

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We were also looking through the Das Grosse 914 Buch & noticed in the full spread pic of the factory line (same as below & at post #30 - which also shows Signal Orange behind the grills when you enlarge it by clicking on that pic, but reversed L to R), that none of those showed the black-out when we looked close at the grills.

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Based on this info, Pat Garvey's 72 & Steve G's several 914's - none with black paint behind the grill, it's safe to assume that at least it was not a standard factory item (since the one constant about 914s was there were always differences), and IMHO it probably was not done at the factory, but perhaps by dealers & owners.

Hope this helps!

Actually, that is 914.114 ... I don't think prototype cars count in this argument ...

Thanx Andy, I wondered if that was .114 in its younger days!
... is 914.114 the same one that went through the brouhaha where somebody found it in a backyard in recent years & made off with it?

BTW .... no "argument", just that the factory did at least consider sticking the hood badges on for production models, but then recanted (except for the 914-8's & other "specials".

Yupp, the one and same. Also called #4 ...

Look guys - can we get something straight here. 914's did NOT com hood badges from the Factory! Yeag, a couple of "family" cars did, but that was IT! If you have a hood badge, it's bogus! You cannot take issue with this, because it IS promulgated. Why do we continue to discuss this?

Dino's did not come with Ferrari badges. 914's did not come with Porsche badges.

Who cares why? Shees - move on. Find something interesting to discuss.
Pat

IIRC Pat - this is the Originality & History Forum, and IMHO discussions of how things came about - or not - is part of the "History" of the 914s' story, as is the various options/accessories offered in the period to "personalize" 914s. It is a known fact that Porsche itself finally promulgated it "officially" as the "Personalization Program" in the 74 MY because they loved making a profit off the parts/etc. - which usually garnered a better profit margin, as well as to sell more cars.

In the case of "hood badges" - I merely pointed out that the factory at least considered putting them on - as evidenced by prototype 914.114 noted above and in some other pre-production 914 promotional photos, but later rejected the idea.

That is valid 914 history, as was answering Rich's question to the best of our ability about whether the factory painted black behind the foglight/horn grills.

BTW - Enzo Ferrari likewise initially considered putting prancing horse badges on the Dinos, but then eventually decided not to do so IIRC.

Uhhh...
Once again, MY thread was about FOG LIGHT OPTIONS
You guys keep dragging it back to this stupid debate about
hood crests.
Sheesh
If you want to debate hood crests till the cows come home...
open your own thread

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=114034

Notice anything?

Yeah - it's an RHD 914!

In deference to what you're implying Eric, it looks more like the dealer applied undercoating overspray was left behind the bumper in Phil's current repaint, not the black-out paint behind the fogs per the topic question here.

This is the pic from your link above -



.

For example, you can see some undercoating overspray here on mine behind the D-side fog/horn position, where the Anthracite Grey Metallic didn't take (fyi it's factory L80E, but repainted Sahara Beige, Gold Metallic, Copper Metallic, then Anthracite) -

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.... and here's a shot of the what the undercoating overspray looks like on my longs still in L80E, which shows how it looks more clearly without the multiple color changes behind the front bumper (just for comparison Rich, not a new hijack ) -

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I've still not found anyone with a factory original paint job in my area nor extended circle who had blackout behind the fog grills from the factory, but who knows, maybe one will turn up!?

When the front bumper came off in December 2006 at the start of my '70 914s' "refurbish", this is what it looked like behind the original bumper.......