I have a 75 2.0 d-jet with 140,000 miles, had been working well but 6 weeks ago- dropped valve,./ so now with the help of Chris Banus - one of our members and the guy i bought the car from- helped me find a experienced 914 mechanic in Savannah Ga., so i will be hauling this over next week, he suggests due to the age/milage to go ahead and replace the bearings, valves and seats etc.

So what should i expect for cost parts/labor and how far should we go? it was running well, no major oil leaks, was not burning oil, injection was working well. I do not want to spend a small fortune, i would love to have a raby cam/piston/valve/head redo but i just cant afford that and don't see the cost vs reward working out ( i would love to have the 130hp, but this is a d.d., not autox)

please any advice, ideas of cost etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Phil

If your gonna do bearings (good luck finding main bearings right now) its a full rebuild, cam. lifters, etc etc, with labor to have someone else do it ~5K would be my guess.

well at 140K it may be false economy to only do the top end, however budgets help decide that. how ws the oil pressure prior to failure of the seat? if realy good maybe just slap on rebuilt heads for economy sake? it depends on budget and how you drive the car, new heads may get you an additional 50k miles IF everythign else was not overly worn, then again it may only last 10k more miles. if you dirve only a few k miles per year that may be accetable, if you put 15K per year on the car, the low end cheap job wont last you long., you 'll be doing it again in a year or two.

another option is a good used 1.7 motor as a replacement, again an unknown, but maybe cheaper.

if it was me with my budget and miles drvien , id got for the full rebuild, however you can economize in some ways with used parts but engien life will usually suffer, but hec most folks wont need another 140k miles if you dont drive it much, so that could be over kill.

no set answer, just things to consider, try shopping around, but often you only get what you pay for, sometimes less.

if on a really tight budget, a top end build may be all you can afford, but if you had strong oil pressure and flywheel end play is still excellent then I'd consider the money saving option of top end only, just be sure they build the replacement head with low compressiojn, you dont want the compression really high on a tired bottom end.

good luck

And the cost is going to be the same if you rebuild stock or make it a d-jet 2056. So unless this car is concourse, build the bigger engine and get more power. :-)

Zach

Your biggest expense will be the heads if there in bad shape, most heads are old
and have cracks which must be repair. You could check with Len Hoffman about
getting them repaired. The other big expense will be bearing if they are standard size the rest of the parts will be cheap. Try to find another engine while you save your money to rebuild your engine.

High Performance House in Redwood City CA has main bearings. He'll ship. 650-364-6234 ask for Rich.

Thanks for the info. to answer some of the comments;
Oil pressure was good before this, and for all things being equal if i have to spend the money a 2056 would be great. so the question is, can i do this myself while i get it all together- got a guy here that just took a 2.0 out of another car- will test it out but seems good- really low miles, can swap out my injection to it and put it in while we rebuild the other one, then later sell the replacement? might work well. I hate to to half way and then 10k miles down the road be back to square one and have waisted several k., so
how much is the cam etc with heads for a 2056 build just parts?

I have recently done something similar to my 76 2.0l 914 at a POC event in Fontana Ca, my race mechanic believes that fixing the engine will cost about 1500 to 2000 if nothing has gone completely wrong. His name is DON KRAVIG from Precision Motion Porsche, Riverside CA...951-784-0427, Him and his dad had been around Porsche's since 1975 and race them all year long since then. As a special note Don Kravig SR. helped organised and certified PCA zones in souther California and most Porsche clubs that race still using his rules and PORSCHE AG had flown MR. Kravig to Germany many times to pick his brain on 911 and 914 service related issues.

thanks for the contact information. I think it is worth the 1500-2000 but would have a hard time justifying the $5000 amounts you hear sometimes when the cars are not worth much more than that themselves. The guy here on east coast i just found has 35 years working on porsche and vw, used to build these in the vw plant for vw/porsche, so i know he knows his way around the engine, just depends on labor cost, might buy his used 2.0, run it while i learn how to rebuild this myself - probably take the next year but kind of would be cool to learn.

just remember a car with a dead motor is worth really little, get it a running and you can recoupe mush of the cost of the rebuild ifyou dont go crazy spenging, if yu should sell the car later. of course if the thing is a rust bucket, it may not make sence to put a lot into it, unless you can afford to address the oft expensive rust these cars can have, so make sure your car is not really rusty beeyond repair before putting a lot into it. (photo on you name tag shows a nice car, nice color too.)

a complete rebuild with new pistons, everything balanced, and spun, new bearings, ground cam, polish crank, bore case, new exhaust valves, new lifters, all new seats, wled up heads (done correctly by shop that knows how) should be well under 5 grand, mine is turing out to be less than $2500. you need to find a knowledgable machine shop to build this thing, one that knows typeIV motors so that they have the experience to build it fast (ie3.. less billable hours) yet right, so look for an experienced shop. if you can do some of the running around stuff like parts chasing for the builder, that can help reduce the total bill, why pay machinst rates for sourcing parts? also you can pull, dissassemble and reinstalll the motor to save cost if you have a place to do it, no special tools floor jack and some stands, basic hand tools and a couple helpers will do it.

so shop around, get referances (and check them!!!) the shop you pick will be the deciding factor on price and quality


keep in mind if your car is a keeper, (not rusted bad) it is a might be a nice investiment as it will may retain its value , more so than a new car! and if history is an example, can increase in value when the economy and debt get better (now is a down market for our cars). then again, coming government green house regulations and higher price of fuel may negitively impact the 914's value, so hard to say from a finacial stand point how much to "invest" in your car.

the 1.7 might be a nice option, early 1.7 motors made near as much power as the later 2.0 motors, they can sometimes be had for $1000 or less, complete with FI, turn key so to speak, maybe even a "hear it run first" deal can be found.???? this could be a very viable option, the motor fits in with no hassle, only thing would be the heater fan wire, a simply done modification with a jumper wire, fits like a glove.

good luck, now search some want ad, maybe someone has a runner for sale for less than the rebuild price, that will get you rolling,

drive it!!!!yeah!!!!

yea, the rust issue.... I have the rear jack points need to be replaced, but hell hole is solid. Will have to do some repair to the rear rocker on drive's side but I do believe this is worth fixing. the motor mounts, suspension areas etc are solid, so i think worth saving. I don't see putting more that 5-6000 miles / year on the car, so could be worth it to take a 1.7 like u say, or this 2.0 im looking at, and put it on the road again, and slowly take the time to put together a rebuild on the original. Like you say, sometimes there is a deal to be had, maybe a decent motor coming out of a rusted out body.
if anyone knows of one, let me know!

not trying to argue, just another perspective

it might be that some folks are able to utilize contacts, special deals, and friends or old-school resources.

For the most of us though it is really really hard to correctly build a motor that cheaply. Many times you find that components are worn out or in need of refurbishing and that adds $ to the rebuild.

I'm not trying to say that some people might have the ability to do it for low $

I'm only saying that most people spend $5,000
Some parts are getting expensive on these motors and need to be done right or else you will be repeating the job.

My example:
I cut corners, didn't refurbish everything and did a rebuild (with many used parts) for $2,500 (used cam)

76 miles later I had to tear the motor down because of cutting corners.

This time around I am able to reuse the heads I already paid for, reuse the oil pump, and a few components....

but I also paid to get the line boring done that I should of had done the first time, as well as rebuilding the rods, buying a full cam kit, and other things that I should of done the first time

all in all I'm going to have $5,000 into this motor and that is with some parts used.
(my crank was great and only needed a micro polish, my pistons and cylinders were good and also reused and I hope I don't regret that later)

I probably could of done it once for $4,000 (becuase of some used parts and some deals/favors I got from a machine shop) I wasted a set of bearings, a gasket kit, A LOT of time, and many other small parts by trying to cut corners.

This is with ZERO labor, as I built (both) motors myself

So you need to know the range your looking at, and you need to be informed that not everyone is able to get away with a $2500 rebuild.

its always good to have more information just in case.
brant

I appreciate the comments , i need to be a realist, and this is a pretty depressing thought!! I $5000 into the car, but i cant afford another $5000! so maybe someone that can do this themselves can take advantage of a car that otherwise has a lot done- interior except for dash, new or redone, newly redone back pad to match the 911/porsche seats that we put in, new carpet, centerconsole speakers etc from morph at 914performance and appearance. tires, new West...springs, bilistine shocks, brakes good-rotors and pads new, etc etc etc. ..... my wife would be happy if i cleared out the garage-----(914 included)

or...
you can put a used motor in

or you can park the car and build it over time
(not paying money all at once)

NOnononono!!!!!

not another 5 ki for the motor, no way thats a high priced full build, lets assume for no that many parts are reusable, maybe just polish up the crank and new bearings?, that will be about 200 bucks, reground cam, 185 bucks, new lifters maybe?, 80 bucks, misc gaskets bearing etc...200-300 bucks, spin balance 80 bucks, rebuild both heads 500 bucks, new pistons maybe?, 500 bucks assembly charge 1000 -2000 bucks still way less than 5000 bucks. and you may not need somne of this stuff,

this is why an inexpensive 1.7 used complete motor is a nice option (note you need a complete 1.7 motor, FI everything from the air cleaner to the exhust ports, the 2.0 liter exhaust pipes will fit fine (but late model more restictive exhuast should be upgraded to the better flowing 1.7 or early 2.0 style exhaust pipes)

a complete 1.7 should show up if you search diligently for a while, heck you might be able to off the 2.0 old core motr you have to help offset cost

Not trying to pick a fight.. but I know my Actual costs are way over $2,000. And I feel its fair to give both sides of the story

here is a sample of actual costs
(if you can beat these, then good for you)

500 machine work to case
1100 rebuild both heads (budget rebuild too)
600 full cam and valve-train kit
100 gaskets and front/rear seals
150 bearings
150 rebuild rods
300 lighten and machine work to flywheel (plus surface)
100 incidentals, rod nuts, sealants, valvetrain measuring tools
100 oil pump
100 rings
80 honing bill

this is without pistons and cylinders
and I'm forgetting stuff too.. don't have my receipts in front of me.
so I just don't see how you get a 2500 rebuild out of 3300 worth of parts
and that doesn't include getting the injectors rebuilt, MPS work, etc.. etc..

I won't use inferior parts inside of a motor
it won't last and just isn't worth it
like everything in this world, you get what you pay for and that includes buying an inferior part.

if you have connections you might get it done for less
this is a real life example of real world prices the rest of us have to pay.

information is a wonderful thing, and when making a big purchase its always good to know both ends of the cost scale.

Marks 5K motor build is a steal!
brant

Well there's a recipe for frustration and likely disaster! Reground cam with who knows what for lifters?! Will they be a good match that wears together properly? Odds are against it.

A $500.00 rebuild on a pair of 35 year old 2.0 heads that have already tossed one valve seat!?

T4's are great engines when restored properly. But to do so is just not that cheap unless you can do the machine work (heads included) yourself. Cut corners and you'll end up very unhappy!

\

Here's my thoughts - not facts, just my opinion:

Pull the engine - little to no cost.
Check very carefully for rust - no sense putting $ into engine if car needs major rust repair.
Place a WTB for a running engine - find one for ~$500- they're out there.
Install engine and drive car until you decide next step.
Keep car, sell car as runner or if everything falls apart, part out car.
IMHO - a non running car won't sell for more than $2K even with your upgrades.

Don't price out engine rebuild cost in relation to the cars selling price, Relate price to how long you intend to keep car and how much you enjoy driving it.

funny my bill for Elgin cams was $185 reground the cam, and heat treated it, check my old lifter, not hardenough, so I got new ones OEM, Elgin cams then check the new lifters for tolerances and that was that. no special deal for me, same goes for the other stuff i listed, no special deal, real world current prices.

at any rate a sucked valve does not attomatically mean a full rebuild, the guys on a budget , so either do a partial top end, or get an used motor. i have done both routes on my motors, re-ring the motor, and rebuilt heads and away she goes all for the same reason, a sucked valve., still chugging along to this day, i did that long time ago when money was tight, dont regret it. oen time I answered an add for a $1000 2.o liter, here it run, end up the guy was scraping the car, so i drove the motor and the car home for $1000, nice motor, got over 40k miles out of it as I recall (it is subject of current rebuild!)
One other car i spared no expense and did get near 5 grand in cost, maybe more, new big bore custom pistons, jugs, all high end rebuild, new injectors, oem new air meter, the whole enchalada so to speak. that one i expect to last 200k miles!!! (it is in my vw van)

for this poor soul, lets try to find a used motor for a good price. we all have been there once, unless we was born with golden spoons.

pull head, replace head with used one, drive it till it dies.
cheapest way out of it.
It may be a failure, it may work,,,,its a gamble.

Valve seats drop due to overheating.
Typically this is caused by upshifting to soon and lugging it on the highway.
Keep it in fourth longer...use 5th at 70.
Never use 5th around town.
Never lug the motor, downshift earler than a watercooled car...these motors need the air produces from 3k rpms..that is the sweet spot.

Rich

There's a couple of motors in classified right now. I think one was a 1.7 for $450

Coming from nearly 4 decades of professional experience, I personally wouldn't trust a $500 head rebuild on ONE head, much less 2. ESPECIALLY on a '76, which runs hot by nature. They added EGR to lower the combustion temps, and everyone disconnected or blocked their EGRs as soon as they could in a knee jerk reaction against being told what to do. I have a deal with a VERY good specialty machine shop, and I pay around $1500 a pair for reconditioning 914 heads (ones that are repairable) and I supply the valves and springs. That's a wholesale price, not what you'd get walking in off the street. I might add that they reject more than 50% of the T4 heads that come in the door.

If you dropped a valve, the piston is toast on AT LEAST that cylinder. I've seen large debris travel through the intake and wreck all 4 pistons and cylinders, AS WELL AS the other head. A dropped valve often flat out destroys the head, rendering it beyond effective repair. The connecting rod in the offending cylinder has a reasonable chance of being bent, and, at a minimum, you'll need new rod bearings, bushings, and nuts. If the drop was at speed, you may need a case and a camshaft, maybe even a crank. Whatever you do, always plan for the highest reasonable cost expectation. Don't start off with the confidence that it's gonna be the lowest number, 'cause it won't be, and DON'T TAKE SHORTCUTS!

Another important thing I want to say here is regarding shops and labor charges. Shops have to make a profit to remain in business for very long. Labor rates and parts are priced by each shop so they can generate enough income to pay the overhead, the employees, and (NO, REALLY!) the salary of the owner(s). You're NOT gonna get a 3 hour bottom end outta me because I spend that much time doing a final cleaning, inspection, and prep of all the components before I start putting it together. No low wage slaves here, because that's not what you're paying for. And I, as do many shops, charge extra labor if you bring your own parts, because the profit on the parts is a big component of my strategy for making enough money to pay the bills. And the warranty is off the table. Sound harsh? I'm not rich, but I'm still here after 22 years, and so are a big percentage of my customers.

Part of the aforementioned "overhead" is insurance and a reserve of some kind that enables the shop to give you a meaningful warranty on both the parts they sell and the labor they perform. While my $120/hour labor and my retail pricing of parts (which you can often find on line for considerably less money) sounds like a lot of money, I stand behind my work, and the work of my partner, and you leave the shop with every confidence that I'll be there for you should a problem arise related to the work you just paid for, and that I'm gonna be there the next time you need my services. You use some guy moonlighting in his garage, or yours, and you have NONE of that. You probably couldn't even sue him if things got bad, and if you could, there's be nothing to collect. And good luck with the warranty on the parts you bought on Ebay.

And one last paragraph. Well two. The first complete engine I rebuilt was a '56 1600N for my Speedster. Despite the fact we put huge 40P11 Solex carbs from a 356SC on it, we got it to run pretty well. I had a book, and a couple of local PCA guys who had done a few motors offered their help. We had a pretty good machinist who did the heads, mic'ed and polished the crank, and did the rods. Balanced the whole thing to a gnat's eyelash. Damn, that garage in VA was COLD! But we got it together. Ran a couple of autocrosses, did pretty well. On the way home from the second one, the oil cooler we cleaned by simply pouring solvent through it turned around and bit us in the ass. Who knew? Well, a professional would have. Just not a couple of PCA guys and myself. The machinist didn't ask because we talked like we knew what we were doing. We talked like we knew what we were doing because we thought we did, and we had a lot of friends who thought they did, too. And enthusiast magazines up the wazoo. And an account with the local Snap On guy.

If you, or you and a friend, are gonna do this, and I think you should if you have the time, make EVERY effort to seek out the best advice you can, read up on the subject, buy a good manual and maybe Jake's video, use a quality machine shop, one well experienced in T4 engines, and don't be afraid to stop what you're doing and ASK for help! Shop with quality as your benchmark, not price.

The Cap'n

Well, capt., I will tell you I understand your point in regard to shops like yours, cost etc. I have been in business myself and fully understand the issue of overhead and need for profit while wanting to give the highest quality product or service. I have never been the cheapest, but always the best, so I could earn their trust and future business. So I would want quality. And would pay more to make sure it was done right. But now I understand why many scrap it and convert to a cheaper more powerful alternative. Not every one has the money know-how or resources to fix these. With that said, I would rather see them fixed. I'm going to look for a replacement used, hope to get lucky. I had already put new exhaust s.s.h.e. backdated to74 s with new triadwest dual tipexhaust. I can remove and place on whatever I get. I will check the classifieds but if u have a deal send me a p.m.
phil

simply awesome post
I'm honestly in awe
well said...
brant

Brant, Cap'n etc, many great comments- a lot of great advice.
thats why i really love these forums. gives those with less experience and insight to glean those "pearls of wisdom" as my father-in-law used to say, from people like you.
it is not said enough, but thanks for caring enough to take the time out to comment, and give advice etc !!!!!!!!!!!
I'll keep you posted on what we end up doing and how it ends up!

Phil

The Cap'n nailed it with that post. As a professional who deals with these issues every day I can relate to everything he said.

Phillip if you do go with used heads (whether as part of a complete engine or just for your existing engine) do yourself a favor and at least replace the valve springs.

The one common factor that I have seen with every T4 head that has come through my shop with a dropped intake valve seat was toasted valve springs. It makes sense too as once the spring looses the ability to control the valve the valve begins pounding the seat like a sledge hammer. It doesn't matter how tight the seat is in the head, it is still pressed into an aluminum casting. Eventually it moves the seats. And once it starts it only gets worse.

Replacing the ex valves would be wise too as they are hollow and do break!

You have alot of options, and just remember that there are very few cars that turn into a profitable investment when you have to restore them...
A 356 at todays project prices still needs 20-30k invested to bring it back to original, and even those cars dont always justify the costs.

If you love the car, and you see yourself driving it for another ten years, rebuild the motor the right way.
If you are tired of the car, sell it.
It may be a better use of your funds to walk away now instead of putting more money into it and getting back pennies on the dollar.

Just keep that in mind...there is an ROI here, but you need to hold onto the car for a long time to get it back...meanwhile drive it and enjoy it.

If I was going to have a motor built and I was near Cap'n, I would drop it off and never worry...


Rich

there is another poster who wants to sell a 74 2.0 liter motor, contact him ASAP and see if you can make a deal, his posts title is asking about the price for a used 2.o liter maybe a good deal ?

if you go the rebuild route, ken jansan in Belmont CA can get her done for less money that what has been quoated above, quality work too. so no worries there. There seems to be all sorts of doom and gloom advice if you dont spend big bucks on a rebuild, golly I was told flat out my cam shaft would go flat if it was reground! hahahahahah worthless advice. funny the guy doing it has been making cams and regrinding them and heat treating them for decades ,knows his stuff and cost me $185 delieverd (Elgin Cams) I have no worries that it will go flat, their reputation is rock solid. he has been in bussiness for decades.

so go with what you can, and hop on the used motor offered, if it is a good deal it will not last long before sold

Dema Elgin is a sharp guy and does good work. Let's clarify that I never said anything negative about Elgin. I recommend his cams to all of my 356/912 head customers.

I have never heard a horror story regarding Elgin reground cams specifically. But I have heard plenty of horror stories regarding reground T4 cams over the years. Was it the lifters, was it the cam? Who knows. I do know that the best insurance that you won't have to tear into the bottom end to replace a wiped out cam is to go with the best money can buy, which is a matched set of cam & lifters from Jake. He test' samples of every new batch of lifters before they are made available to the public and he installs what he sells.

I recognize that there are cheaper alternatives out there for folks rebuilding their engines/heads.

But here's my point: As a professional I also recognize that if I don't replace every valve seat, every valve guide, every exhaust stud, every rocker stud, weld the spark plug bosses shut and machine new plug threads (no inserts to pull out later) on every head eventually one of my customers is going to have a problem as a result. I refuse to play Russian roulette with my reputation.

And if I were an enthusiast DIY'er I would not trust a shop that was willing to play Russian roulette with my project. Ignorance truly is bliss. If a guy follows the low cost path and it works for him, great! But it doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. It will blow-up on someone, that is a well established fact!

My customers (and I know this is true of other high-end shops as well)tend to fall into one or more of a few different groups: Those who tried the low cost path and it bit them, those who have done due dilligence and don't want to get bit, or those who knew someone who did get bit.

sounds like the old saying about motorcycle riders.

There are three types of riders.
Those that have been down
Those that are going down
Those that are going down again.

I fall into the first category.
Rich

I'm in all three. I just get up slower now.

you did say my $185 reground cam had odds aginst it, but upon learning it was an elgin cam it is ok, so that is reassuring. Elgin checked everything, and told me I needed new lifters, (mine was to soft for him to restore) my engine guy as a matter of course replaces all the valve seats, he jobs that out to a place he knows knows how to do it without failures. I guess my engine builder is hgihly effecient. his price is good, and qualitya nd attention to detail is excellent. I am on my third motor with him (three different cars).

Hey, HAMM,
your bio says Athens, georgia, is that still current, and do you work on these?
I am in Beaufort SC about 3 hours away. I am going over to Savannah monday to look at a 2.0 that a guy is pulling out of 914 he is doing a suby rebuild on. I think he just bought it so has to test it out- don't know how many mile etc yet. but let me know.
I know of jake's rep. and understand he puts together a great package. I would love to do that- 2056 - - new cam,valves,springs,lifters, head package etc, , or at least close to it- but would still need someone to do the seats etc, and maybe could do this over time- if a replacement can be found so i can use the car in the mean-time, i might be able to do that.
phil

good for you, hope this used motor works well for you, glad to see one more person keeping his 914 road worthy, have fun, best o luck!!!!