I had to ask here...I cant ask "there" of I will most likely be banned for even thinking it.

What would be the pro/con in your opinion of replacing the torsion leaf spring and king pin front suspension on a 356 with a complete, fabricated and welded in subframe and 914 front end setup?

I am doing 911 rear IRS in this car...a 356, already.
It will be five lug already
Its a bastard already...dont try to save it.

The front suspension was cut out like a vw beam...its here, but it will take some fabrication to put it in.
I am missing parts, and I will need to buy all the brake parts for 5 lug to fit onto the 356 beam....
Many vendors like airkewled have this, so its not impossible.

Then I started looking around and found several complete 914 front end setups in my parts room and it got me thinking.

I know the level of work required...not my question.


What do you see as a technical advantage of putting in the 914 versus the original front end?

IC more trunk space, and individual adjustment of each corner as a result.

Porsche did this for a reason...and it was not all about the trunk...

Rich

me I think youd have less trunk space wiht the 914 set up not more, the struts woudl intrude in the trunk space (or gas tank space). not sure what you mean by individual adjustment on each croner, you can adjust the 356 suspension, you can add coil over shocks and adjust the spring.

I guess the main things is measureing the hieght and spacing between the struts on the 914 and see if they will fit within the body of the 356, if the strut towers go past teh body of the 356, it may be exremily difficult. to fit

you might ask at the 356 registry website, i know that have some folks at that group have done stuff on the rear (like adding a 911 motor) (actually is a member or the 356CAR group a SF bay area 356 club)
maybe this has been done before? and they can give advise

me I am thing the trunk on the 356 may not be wide enough at the top to accomidate the 914 struts mounts on top, so this will need to be confirmed first

interesting project!

one other option would be to try to graft in teh later style balljoint VW front beam, that will get you away form teh king/link pin suspenion. that would be a much easier modfication i would think and maybe meet you goal???? also then the late ghia disc brake will bolt on in. and you could drill the ghia rotor to five lug!

You cant adjust or really corner balance a stock torsion springed 356 front end.
Both sides go up and down together.
The 914 you can setup better....its adjustable on each side, individual of the other side.

I really dont care about the trunk...I am not going camping here...
It does fit, I have seen it done.

I wont raise this topic on the registry website, its is to close minded.
The guys who do this type of work either PM me there, or they never visit the site at all.....like me.

I have often been tempted to start another 356 forum for the rest of us and let that site retain its concours mentality. That is what they are into and there is nothing wrong with it.
I am not into that with this car, and they are to hostile for me to bother.
A real shame over there...hostility, old minded, and they jump into every thread with bold statements (as if they invented everything)

At the end of the day, I have a car that will never be concours and never original. It was cut up to far and all the original parts are gone.

I know how to bring it back...I even know where the motor is.
Just not worth it to me...I want a really fast and fun 356 that I dont worry as much about as a concours car. I want a hotrod 356...an outlaw with a big power plant.

I have a numbers matching one in the back...I will get to it someday.
Mine is a T6...if is was an A, I personally would have different feelings about it due to the rare nature of that model in my part of the country.

The car was cut to fit on a beetle pan...front and rear suspension removed all the way..
The roof was cut off to make it a speedster style.

I found a roof and put it back on.
I put in IRS rear suspension cause I can.
I am scratching my head over the front...
I can go either way. just looking for the technical merit of each.

Personally I think the torsion front end was more durable, king pin/link pin is far more rugged than the 914 ball joint will ever hope to be.

I may go for coil overs and the torsion tube setup...that may be the best of both worlds at the end of the day.
There is a kit to put 944 rotors, brakes and all up front made up in canada....looks fairly straight forward.


Rich

No advice here, but whatever you end up doing, don't forget to post pictures!

We like pictures ...

Once I dig it out and start up again, I plan to do a build thread...
It will have 914 parts...so its kinda ok I guess.
Build threads keep me honest and working...

I have some pics of how I got it...I will dig those up...they be ugly.

Rich

i would think that since the torsion bars are anchored in the middle of the beam with the ride hight adjsutment screws, you could come up with a way to preload them right and left???

maybe try adding an adjustable torsion srew assembly (like the stock 356 one, or liek the aftermarket vw adjustable beams have) Id' ad one for EACH SIDE! maybe place the new adjsuters a few inches left and right of the middle of the beam, then you could cut the torsion bars so they are seperate, (left and right) adn adjust each side by itself??? maybe this would work, ????? I dont know, just thinking about it?????

ugly in eye of be holder, go and post them, ugly is usally good in my opinion, it just means more possibilities!!!!! very interesting project

This sounds like fun!

I had lots of experience with the torsion beam front suspension and besides being extremely tough, it was a very limiting system. You can get reasonable camber out of it, but the springs are tough to tune. If I had to use that setup, I'd go to coil overs and remove the torsion springs all together.

So, to me, the only real concern I have is finding room and properly constructing the strut towers.
As they don't have to handle spring load, they don't have to be as strong as other cars, but they will take all the impact.

Also, I thought the 356 had a smaller front track than the 914, so if you need to shorten the subframe, it can be done but will make the tie rods more of a challenge.

Good luck and post pix.

why go with mac strut and limit yourself when you could go something worth the time and effort.
http://www.volksworld.com/news/latest/4380...la-chassis.html
http://mendeolamotors.com/motors/index.php...tent&id=137
by no means the cheapest solution but i dont see much point in changing to another limited design which.
type 3 front end might be another option for you. different mounts than the stock beetle setup but pretty sure they use a torsion bar for each side in bottom tube and the anti roll bar links the 2 sides in the top.
personaly i would put the time and effort into a double wishbone setup like porsche should have used in the first place.
let the flaming begin (glad this isnt a purist website)
Edwin

If I remember correctly, didn't the Super Beetles have front strut suspension? That may give you some fabrication ideas (or perhaps a source of strut towers, etc.) that could be used.

If you're building an "Outlaw" anyway, the possibilities are only constrained by your pocketbook and creativity.

so you dont think you could split the torsion bars into right and left for a type i and re-anchor them in the torsion tube near the middle, thus giving you left and right indepentant torsion springs? i keep thinking in my mind this might work??? anyone???

........In my opinion, this project is a waste of time, effort and money. The 356 is so technically inferior to the 914 that their is no comparison whatsoever. You will have a tail dragger that will be tail happy once you figure out what power plant to use, reguardless...my knowledgable friends with 356,s are restoring them.( Into garage queens)... and looking at the 914 as the car to get as a driver/ for actually using/ autocrossing/ etc....the 914 IS what the 356 used to be 25 years ago....with the advantage that parts, cars , are everywhere. cheap relatively. Your 356 outlaw project, due to the body, and chassis, (not being there/and correct/ will have very little value when completed.,I think you would be better off with a kit car 550., or speedster. Of course the 356 will allow you to be a porsche club, and 356 registry member. For what that,s worth.(nothing)....for your consideration.

The easier approach is to replace the torsion springs with rods.
The rods keep the trailing arms in place...and that is all they do.
Then you use coil overs.

Here are the three options as IC.
stock setup, modified to coil over.
914 setup fabricated in.
uneven a-arms with coild overs (a new setup is out there in kit form for beetles...could be fabricated to make it fit...pretty cool also)

I will most likely go with the 914/911 front suspension because I have several sets right here...I "get it" and I dont need to invent anything.
I just need to measure, fabricate, and make it fit.

This gets me into well known front brakes and 5 lug conversion solutions.

Rich

Most of the time I like to use whats available and the stuff I am familiar with. That is usually the cheaper way out for me. But it usually is old technology and if the finished product looks really good when it's finished I usually regret that I had not gone the more expensive route to get the better setup and for the added value.

So happy you have added your opinion on this project.

Rich

I helped build an outlaw 356 a long time ago. We put 911 F & R suspension and a 2.8 RSR with a welded diff for doing better burnouts.
Lots of burnouts. Even with Hoosier slicks on the car.
You gain arguably better suspension geometry, newer disc brakes with much cheaper components, and a more durable design. You only need 8 points to mount the whole bottom section and some strut top boxes like you might find at a roundy round racing catalog website, with the slots already cut in.
I don't know what you're doing in the rear but we cut out the original torsion bar tube and welded in the 911 torsion bar tube, it already had all of the lower suspension points on it. I wasn't a part of the rear shock mounting part of the project so I can't remember what we did there.
The one really hard part of the project was the rear tube. That was a lot of work. There are 124,902 pieces of metal holding those tubes in. It was challenging to get the tubes out while saving the right amount of sheet metal surrounding it. Probably a couple of little sheet metal tabs didn't quite get welded together the same way.
All in all it was a wonderful monster. Total Hot Rod. The 365 guys fainted into their wives every time he showed up with it.
Scare a couple of little poops out of almost everybody in an almost stock appearing 356, 'cept for those big tires on scratched up Fuchs and the extra bulges around the wheel wells.
Hey, if the car's already a bastard with a DEA history, do something fun with it and see if you can get them to pull out their white hair!
UMM, subwoofers would be good too.

BTW I think the reason they did it is because they hadn't thought of struts yet.

you get it.

Rich

remeber this mid engine 356
http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/154-Po...from%20a%20911)

I dunno why you're even asking; we already suspect if you're contemplating it that you're going to do it.

You come up with some of the coolest ideas. Got pics yet? How are your 914 projects coming?

My question is OT but rather than dig up the thread I am curious what happened to the 914 you were building with the cut and re-shaped rearend?

RE: the 356 I have no input from a technical perspective other than for 40ish years after the 356 era Porsche has been using torsion bars ala 914 and 911( save for motorsport and the 930, right?), well there must have been a reason for that.

Do it cleanly and safely and who can tell you its wrong. This being especially true if you are able to run circles around the nay-sayers.

Good luck Rich and post those pics.

Were you thinking of adapting the rack as well? It seems at this level of modification, you may want to consider a tube frame chassis with a tub body draped over it. From my 356 experience, I know that if the car is rusty, there usually isn't enough good metal to save underneath and it has to be cut out anyhow. The money you would spend on 356 replacement panels would be better spent on a tube frame chassis. Maybe a mid-engined tube frame chassis? Maybe a Subi powered mid-engined chassis?

This car was built on a 914 4 chassis I saw it in person. He thought it was based on a six frame, but the 4 cylinder engine mounts were present. Anyway the guy selling this car, Dink Farmer had a couple of outlaw 356s. I remember one had a 911 front and rear suspension. I don't have any contact information, but he was in Lakeport, CA

Rich it sounds like a great project but I cant offer any technical advice on the front suspension. Every year the value on these cars goes up and less and less owners are gonna build outlaws in my opinion. It sounds like you have the perfect candidate and I look forward to the build pictures. Sounds like ME733 is the type of post-er you were trying to avoid by not posting over at the registry but oh well you know there are plenty of people over here that will encourage you. Let's see those pics!

Jim