Hi, just about to pull apart my entire suspension for the big winter project...I have all my suspensions parts ready to go (Koni shocks,Tarret 19mm front bar and 150 pound springs).... the last part I want to replace is the suspension bushings....what I am asking here is what is everybody using for their cars? My car will be a high performance weekend fun car, occasionally driven to work on nice days, mostly weekend mountain driving and occasional autocrossing...looking for a nice sporty ride.

I know Weltmeister makes a complete kit that Automotion sells for around 70 dollars for the set....than I noticed Tangerine has their sets too, and I always hear good things about the Elephant Racing bushings.....I was thinking about going with the Elephant bushings but they are expensive.

Is installing the bushings a major job? I have never done this kind of work before...if any body has any advice or some suggestions or other bushings please feel free to post and thank you

Cheers

Oh boy ... :ducking for cover:


The suspension bushing debate is about as heated as the /6 vs. /4 debate. Do a search here, Eric Shea posted a very good thread not too long ago on some of his findings.


I'm running the FreeMotion roller bearings, but they are the most expensive solution so most people shy away from them.

http://www.originalcustoms.com/FreeMotion.php

i just installed elephant poly bronze on my rear trailing arms. the hardest part is getting the old rubbers out. a press was needed for mine.

I've recently installed ER rear bushes in my car and though expensive, they're really nice. Easy to install too, with comprehensive instructions. I like the fact that they're greasable and therefore should never require replacing.

Phil

I just took to the old rubbers with a drill and they came out easy.

Phil

WOW! i tried that but gave up. i went out and bought a hydrolic press. ive always needed one, so it gave me a good excuse.

I'm glad you asked this question so I can ask my related question without starting a new thread.
When the new bushings are installed, should the arm, without the shock attached, move freely up and down, or should there be resistance? My old stock bushings feel like there is a lot resistance when I move them up and down unattached to the shock.
I'll be watching this thread to see what everyone suggest you use, then I'll get the same.

The stock rubber bushings stick a lot. Replacement rubber bushings stick a bit. Correctly installed and greased plastic and bronze bushings stick a little bit. Roller bearings don't stick at all.

SirAndy,
Which is best, sticking or not and what were they like when new, sticky or not?
I remember driving brand new 914s from the dealer in the early 70s and they sure had a better ride than any I have ever owned.

this sounds familiar
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=114206&hl=

and Andy is right...the search function will bring you hours of reading on the debate. good luck!

Jamie,
If you are going stock and want a nice ride...get the new rubber ones.

Rubber does stick and provide resistance, but in a street car, that is ok and its offset by the smoother ride and less direct contact with the road imperfections.

Like Andy, I have linear roller bearings...several places make them up but they are not cheap...and really not good for a DD.

Rich

I found that the ER bushes allow the trailing arm to rotate freely without any resistance at all.

When you say roller bearings is that different to needle bearings?

Phil

No, one and the same ...

Thanks! I will check the thread out, actually I did do a search and didn't really come up with anything I needed to answer my question. I guess I am not that good at using the search, I did give it a good 1 hour before

I am looking for a complete front and rear bushing set

Also curious about what other brands are out there, I never heard of the ones Andy is using...all I know about is Weltmiester, Tangerine and Elephant racing...

Cheers

Thanks Rich! What rubber ones would you recommend? My car is not really a DD but more of a fun weekend car and I want to have one nice handling 914...I got Koni shocks, 150 pound springs and a new GPR/Tarret 19.4mm sway bar plus turbo tie rods coming soon too. How about the Weltmeister ones? Those are very reasonably priced on the Automotion site, 70 dollars for a complete set to do one car (front and rear)

It's a matter of proper handling under heavy turns and severe braking and what that's worth to you. Much of that is related to the stiffness in your spring system, but if we assume the same spring rates in each case, I look at it as an easy decision. Only those I have experience with are listed.

The ones you can do yourself:
1. Stock: more deflection, thus more alignment changes during maneuvers.
2. Delrin: Cheap and very stiff but fine if properly installed. They wear out quickest of all of them.
3. Elephant Polybronze: Fairly easy installation, tiny deflection under stress. They're expensive but possibly the last ones the car needs if they are maintained (lubricated) properly.

Professionally installed into your suspension arms,
1. Roller bearings: Most expensive, essentially no deflection, bolt-up installation by you. Prone to water intrusion if the seals aren't properly designed/installed.

I run Elephant for three reasons.
1. Stiff enough for me.
2. I can install them myself
3. Water sealing issues (i.e. rusty bearings/races) in a place that I can't inspect make me crazy so roller-bearings don't appeal to me in THIS application. The cost-benefit is more than I like since the Elephant solution gives me the ability to lubricate each of them as well, and allows so little deflection that I likely won't be able to tell the difference.

Good luck!

I installed my bearings...its a simple process and DIY.
I think the rubber ones require a press, and I would go with those if I had to do it over again...
The stock rubber lasted 40 years....replacement rubber should last half as long IMHO.

RIch

Thanks Rich,

Can I ask where did you get your bushings? How much did you pay? Thank you!!

Thank you for the excellent info...you have the Elephant bushings? These are what I am still thinking about but having problems deciding.... how is the ride? Is your car a pure racer? Or like my car, a weekend fun car that I like to drive and take to the mountains....I don't mind a firm ride....just curious how is your ride and what kind of driving are you doing? (race? DD? fun car? AX?)

Mine is basically a race car I keep on the street (daily driver) and it's quite stiff, but the stiffness isn't from the bushings. It's from the 23mm front torsion bars, the 22mm front sway-bar, Bilstein sport front inserts, the 200# rear springs, and koni gas adjustable shocks. Road race cars make for the most fun road cars because the elements we face on the road are more like a road-race track than an AX.

My car is built for road-track use and it's not set-up to do AX unless I make big changes to soften the front (sway-bar adjustments) and/or stiffen the rear with a shock adjustment... usually both. Plus the clutch-type 60/40 LSD makes for a push on tight AX elements. But as I said it's a daily driver and I live very close to some great mountain roads.

I like nothing better than to go out into the twisty roads and push the car. Those Elephant bushings made a dramatic difference in the crispness of my turns. Nothing will make you quicker than confidence that when you make a steering input, that you feel the car respond the same way every time, and that it happens RIGHT NOW!

The non-stock bushings don't stiffen the car but they simply do two things:

1. With proper installation they give our swing arms the ability to move freely and NOT become part of the spring equation with drag. That would make them spring-dampeners.
2. They reduce (in directions that steal energy from your steering input) suspension arm movement. The biggest benefit you will get is a crispness in steering that, if you're "tuned" to your car with rubber or old bushings, you will notice immediately.

None of these are going to increase the impact of the road on your butt. That's purely a function of your springs, shocks (which are a kind of spring) and the weight of the car.

Thank you !! That is exactly what I wanted to hear....I am kind of leaning towards the Elephant bushings now after hearing that, that is basically how my car is used for too, weekend mountain cruising....I don't mind paying a little more for better performance, thank you

Jamie

Where would be the best place to order Elephant bushings?? Seems like most of the shops I find on the regular sites all have the same price....any places offering better than list prices? Also how hard is it to install these bushings? Should I have them professionally installed or try it myself? I have never tried this before but have access to most tools from my work.

Elephant Racing is in San Jose. Give Chuck a call and have him ship them to you.
I installed my bushings my self. It was not too hard to do, take care when drilling and tapping for the grease fittings on the rear. Also check out Rebel Racing bushings they dont require the low friction mounts that elephant recommends for their front bushings. I think Koozy used the Rebel bushings.
Oh, my driving is mostly DD with some weekend twists and turns. The car rides better than my subaru.

Thanks !! I will try to find more info to get in touch with Elephant directly....I always thought Tarret Engineering made those bushings...

I have never heard of the Rebel Racing ones but will check them out, thank you for the advice and tips. Much appreciated !!

Nice to hear these bushings also work on daily driver cars....my car will be more of a weekend fun car with occasional race events and some drives to work, cheers!!

No experience with the Rebel Racing bushings but I installed the Elephants myself. A few notes about the installation.

Prerequisite: Mark all of your suspension points for alignment so you can get it back as close as possible to where it is now, assuming it's already aligned properly.

1. The rears come with a new shaft as well so there is no preparation on the old one. A drill and a propane torch will make removing the old ones a lot easier than simply digging them out of your trailing arm bosses.

2. At least with the fronts, you will probably need access to a press (and very soapy water) to get the outer bushings into your pieces. I tried it with a small arbor press first but fell back onto my hydraulic press when that wasn't quite enough. If your vice is the size of Montana it may be enough, but don't bet on it.

3. On the fronts the grease nipples are already installed, so make sure that the side of the nipple doesn't interfere with the seating of the new bushings into your collars. You'll know what I'm saying when you get them if you go with Elephant. It's trivial to do a little light filing before you install them.

If you're mechanically minded it's a great job to tackle. Then there's the alignment afterward and off to the twisties!

Good luck!

Good point to mention removal of the rear rubber bushings, this was the most difficult part to do. Chuck (at Elephant) suggest in the directions that you drill out the rubber of the trailing arm bushings. This method is a joke. Use a puller, like McMark suggested here and it made a world of difference. It's the only way to go. Here is Elephants phone # 1 408-297-2789

Thanks!! This is super helpful!!!!! I really appreciate it!!!! I am also going to install turbo tie rods and a bump steer kit as well...I am not sure if I can handle this by myself so I may have to leave it to a pro mechanic (my good friend here in Japan)

Jamie,
You can do the work your self it is not that hard and it's rewarding. The Elephant front bushings require JB Weld for the install; can you get that in Japan?
The trubo tie rods are also a nice improvement, there was an issue 9in the past) of the rubber boots being of poor quality and I am not sure how that issue stands today.

I also replaced my rubber steering donut with a aluminum billet coupler, we may have taked about this in another thread. But if it is something you want to do this is the time to do it.

let us know how it goes.
-Rob

Hey Jaime,

Try here http://www.elephantracing.com/

Al

Thank you!! What is JB weld? I have been in Japan too long and have not heard of that one before......

Yes, we talked about the rubber steering donut in the past, I ordered one from Tangerine and its here now. I plan to do this all at once...one problem I have is I have no real place to work on the car and not many tools....I will have to ask my friends shop to help me out on this one I think.

Thank you and cheers
Jamie

JB Weld is a two part steel based epoxy. About $5 at Home Depot over here.

Well, I stopped by the home center on the way home from work and they don't sell or never heard of WB weld.....do I really need this? Somebody want to set me up with a bottle or tube?? I can send a little something to you from Japan in exchange.....

If you are installing Elephant poly bronze bushings in the front, then yes you do need JB Weld. Poly bronze installation instructions.
Send me a PM with your contact/mailing info and I'll send you a tube of the JB Weld.

JB-Weld is an epoxy that has steel (or something) powder mixed into it. Make your own with a good epoxy and steel dust mixed in... or just epoxy all by itself. That technique is used in industry to make the epoxy mimic the expansion rates of the parts it's used with producing a longer lasting joint by creating less stress at the junction between the bits as the temperature changes.

The Elephant bushings have essentially two parts. The bronze/ polyurethane outer bushing, and a steel inner race that it fits inside of it.

The epoxy glues the inner races to the control arm bosses where the old rubber bushings plugged into at both ends. Then the bronze outers fit over them giving the bushing a smooth surface to pivot on.

Hi,
You can get JB WELD on Ebay, herewith a link :

http://cgi.ebay.fr/J-B-WELD-ORIGINAL-COLD-...=item2eafc26bd8

Jeff

Further note with Poly-Bronze and JB Weld: JB Weld the races on "before" you powdercoat your arms (if you plan to do this step). Have your powdercoater tape off the races.

This get's full coverage of the powder all the way up to the new race. If you try to put them on later, you will have to remove a good chunk of the powder that will not be covered by the race.

JB Weld will withstand 500 degrees so it will be fine for the powder oven. Take it from someone who's installed tons of these.

Another data point. I have ER poly bronze bushings front and rear in my GT clone. Stock torsion bars and Koni rear shocks with 140 lb. springs with a 19mm front adjustable sway bar. Has a 3.0 and 245/45x16 + 205/55x16 rubber. So it is setup a little stiffer than stock. I have been driving the car for about 10 months now and I really like this setup and the way it feels. Yes in a light car you're going to feel the bumps but it is not bad in my opinion. I did the install myself and had no real issues. As mentioned earlier the drilling of the grease fittings was probably the most difficult, on the rear I drilled one in the wrong spot and had to redrill. The OEM rubber bushings I used my oxy/acetelyn torch to burn them out. A smelly approach but only took a minute or so per bushing to get them out. Grease them up good and have a pro do a 4 wheel alignment and corner balance after install and you will be very happy. Hit them with a grease gun twice a year and they should last forever. I purchased mine from Pelican Parts, been buying 911 parts for years from them and always receive great service.