Rather than ask what engine swap is best, I'll ask a slightly different question....

I have decided that a flat 6 is going in my car, I have a friend at the moment who has a couple of engines that may work. One us a 3.6 non varioram and the other is a s.c 3.0.

So which would suit my needs best? I'm after building a car strictly for the road, with a sc front end and 7 inch Fuchs with road tyres.

I had a 1960s mini with 180hp and it was too much, the chassis was just not upto the job and it was a nightmare getting the power down.. I remember reading a thread here last week and someone had a sbc with 345hp and he thought it was too much power and just kept wanting to spin round.

So what do you think, hopefully from experience, what the ideal hp for a street 914 is??

horse power is a product of torque and RPM. Perhaps the v8 guy with wheel spin had too much torque, not enough tire and not enough RPM. The car is so light you don't need a lot of torque.
Actually I didn't know you could have too much power..... it's all about how it's applied.

My perception so for has been like 200 to 250... But this largely depends on tire size..

You should have 914hp
The biggest problem with the 345hp V8 is troque. Andrew's car has too much torque for him to drive and have fun. It's just no fun to drive if you can't keep the wheels stuck to the ground. The transmission has limitations too.

I'm building a 350-400hp Turbo Rotary for mine. It will make over 300ft lbs of torque but max tq will be between 4k-6k rpm. The engine will spin to 8k rpm. My engine weighs in at 300lbs wet. V8's make torque to low in the rpm range for such a light car, hence why Andrew can't keep it stuck to the pavement. My old V8 was smaller 283ci and made 250ft lbs and was perfect for a 914. The engine is just to heavy for me.

If money were no object, I would go 3.6 Porsche with a sequencial tranny.

300-400hp and correct suspension turns a 914 into a super car...

My 914 GT clone has a 1978 911SC engine. Stock internals with Weber carbs and headers so I'm guessing 200-225 hp. I have metal fender flares with 16x8 Fuchs in the rear with 245/45x16 Yoko ES100 tires ( they are crap ) and have problems keeping the tires sticking to the pavement. Stickier tires will definately help but in my opinion a 2100 lb. car with 200-225 hp is enough.

320 hp late in the power band works for me.

200 hp is fun without being stupid! My car also has the steel flares with 8" rears, so it seems to put that horsepower down to the ground nicely without a lot of trouble. 225/60 Yokahama tires as well seem to work well for me, though I'm sure there are much stickier ones that are better.

However, in the words of the late, great Mark Donohue, you don't have enough horsepower until you can spin the rear tires in top gear at the end of the longest straight!

Good point, Tires are definitely a crucial part of the equation. I can brake my 255s loose pretty easy, with narrow tires my car would be pretty hairy!

When and if I end up doing the gm ecoteck 4, I'm shooting for the 215-230 hp range.

I find that 10 : 1 pounds to hp with good bottom end torque is about right for a 2000 lb car.

OK, so around 200hp sounds ideal...

Now, does that require full body stiffening to hold it all together??

I can power slide with 165+ HP on dry asphalt.

If I were to do it again, I'd build to SCCA SSM rules & call it good...a seam welded chassis would be Plan A.

Anywhere from 150 to 200 crank HP is more than plenty ....... spend the remaining effort and resources on upgrading the suspension!! I will have 7s and 8s x16 on my steel flared GT replica. When I am done with my engine, I will be very pleased if it makes it to the lower end of that HP scale. Though the wheel dyno will be giving me the final verdict .

IMHO 150-180 for a non flaired car and 220 or more for a flaired car. I had a 2.7 with webers and headers and I was running 205-55-16's in the rear. The scary issue was throttle induced oversteer. I wanted my car idiot proof in case other relatives drove it. I have since flaired the car and I am now running 245's in the rear. The car now just power slides without spinning out. The 2.7 also died 10 years ago and I replaced it with a stock 3.2. The car is still very controllable.

I hadn't planned on a 6 conversion until I drove a euro 3.2. Before the ride was done I knew I would do the switch. Now I have a 3.2 with euro spec compression, 964 cams and a Steve Wong chip getting ready to go in a flared car. Best guess is 240hp.

Oy. You can't answer this. There are too many variables. It depends on how the car is built.

As an example, Andyrew has too much HP and torgue for how he wants to drive it. Yet some race cars have two or three times as much and it's not too much. It takes planning toward purpose.

What suspension? What reinforcements? What tires?

There are cars that are way overpowered with 150hp. And yet there are race cars with 500hp and the owner/driver wants more.

A nice stock body 914 with lightly stretched fenders to fit the widest rubber you can, all the right suspension upgrades... and 150 hp, and keeping everything as light as possible is a pretty sweet spot as far as I'm concerned. But I'm thinking street car with casual AX and track days. That's my sweet spot... What's yours?

A well sorted narrow body with 200hp is sweet. My buick 215 was perfect for me. I would estimate 220 but it is not super torqy. I could use a little more but I am very happy where it is at at just under 2200lbs. Still thinking of swapping it out for an eg33 suby

I'm in the stock narrow body, not too much added weight and 150-175hp category.

Once I sell my 911SC, my next project will be a nice sane 914 body, I will add steel flares. Chassis will be beefed up, along with brakes and suspension. I have thought long and hard about the power factor and I really enjoy the sound and the relative power band that my 3.0 has, I have a 2.2E Block, but I think it would be easier to acquire a 3.0 or 3.2, than completely rebuild the 2.2E that made 155HP.
With the car widened and the suspension and brakes upgraded the 200HP arena would seem to be a good fit for this 914 project.

My vote is 204HP?

Vysoc

It really does have a lot to do with the combination & setup--I guess I just got lucky. My 75 is a narrow body car that is slightly lowered, 16 inch fuchs, 200 pound springs with adjustable bilsteins and weighs in with a full tank of gas and person at 2450. The extra weight is a combination of a v8 and modern AC--it's a street car. For whatever reason I have no problem with spinning wheels like Andrew. Even though my v8 is mild, it was built to bring the torque and horspower on mid range which is a pleasure to drive. It without a doubt will bring a smile to your face.

Bigger isn't always better. When I sold my automatic 914 I drove a trade offer that had a professionally built stroker 1.8 that was amazing fast. Had I been in a different place at the time, I would have taken the trade.

So in my humble opinion to the question...how much horsepower...I think it goes hand in hand with your pocketbook and the willingness to spend the time to learn from others mistakes and victories to get it right.

there is no such thing as too much HP, the problem is not enough driver. right foot modulation is a learned skill.
200hp is the magic # for a super-fun 914.
a 914 does not transfer torsional laods to its chassis. stiff and or sticky grip is what tweaks our 914 chassis.
the twisting chassis myth is a carry-over theory that applies to front engine, rear drive muscle car configurations where the front mounted engien twists a drive shaft connected to a diff at teh rear.

I am running a 2.4S MFI out of a 73 911S on a narrow body car with205/55/16 tires. Every time I drive it it leaves me with a huge smile on my face. I am rarely caught without enough power for my limited driving skills. I have no desire for more power would rather toss money for some Elephant racing suspension parts.
__

Not exactly. I've seen an elephant torque a charger so bad that the one side moved a few inches, and it wasn't even in gear.

also, my turbo v6 has been bending the engine mount that we built for it, and it will be getting upgraded here shortly.

270 is ok with a truly light flywheel/clutch assembly, but I wanted more after driving for an hour. I'm thinking 400 to 500 is probably the right number... oh yeah.

I have to agree with sean_v8_914 on this one. The driver is the most important part of this equation. Identical cars with different driver skill levels will get different results driving. I guess one way to put it is how much do you want to be scared at a loss of control. Some want more than others!?
Tom

Oh yeah, I was going to mention the driving style also. by changing my driving style with the turbo setup I can set my car sideways on pavement (i'm surprised my first gear lived through that), or I can ease into a softer start and launch from a slow roll when the boost kicks in and the turbo is spooled up.
or I can drive mild and not get too much attention for driving like an idiot.

150-200 (depending).

A stock 914 is a blast to drive with ~200HP. It just feels "right".

Anything over that will require more and more modifications to the tub, suspension and driver.

Can a 500HP 914 be fun to drive? Sure. But only if you spend a lot of effort (and money) to make the car handle that kind of power. If you don't, you spend all your time trying to control the car instead of being able to actually drive the car.


Again, for a stockish 914, i think the sweet spot is somewhere around 200HP ...

Heck, my car with ~100hp is a blast with 205 tires all around...can't wait to see how it feels and what needs to be changed when it has 185-200. I like the skinny fender look and think ~200hp should be great. Any more tweaking could be suspension, lightening and driver related.

To me the sweet spot with my old car was 155HP.. The car was better balanced and way more fun to drive with 150HP than it was at 180 and 210HP.

The level of prep to perform at over 150HP while maintaiing balance all around is where cost comes in.

I'd rather have the high torque 150HP medium displacement engine than the higher performing versions, even in a car prepped with brake and suspension upgrades like my old 73 was. That car felt faster with 155HP and an RPM range from 2500-6500 RPM than any other I have ever driven.

Depends on what you want to do with the car.

Autox 150-200
Road Race 200-250
Being an asshole 300-500
Quick death 500+


Really depends on the car and the driver.

It does really depend on what you want to do with the car. I have a 3.0 in mine with webbers and cams, its really fun to drive on street and track. But I have to say if your the type of person (doesnt sound like you are) that makes your car faster, you get used to it and then want more power you may want to save yourself some time and money and start with the 3.6.

When I first put my car together I thought it was crazy fast, but now I find myself occasionally thirsting for more power...

Motorcycle or car you get used to new power and think you want more after you get passed. There is always going to be someone with more money or skill.

IMHO (The guy with the V8 with to much tq)

200HP 200TQ on a narrow body and 300hp 250tq on a wide body.




The reason why I have problems spinning the tires is that my 285's on the rear of my car are a bit old, If they were sticky rubber then I probably wouldnt spin the tires as much. HOWEVER I would probably break the trani or CV joints much more quickly.
As it sits my car has ~ 400tq, and the torque band has a massive spike at around 2k and levels off later for a nice power band. Realize I have driven the car for a long period of time on a carb (its FI now) with ~ 275hp and 315tq and It was a really nice balance. The problem was the gas milage was pretty crappy (10 city, 14 highway), so I went to fuel injection to see if I could fix that.

I'd say

80 horse's get's you down the road pretty good ,

but that's just me

I wanna do one of these..

200HP capable pretty easy.

I've had 220HP & that was Nice. MY 2 Motors that are built are 250 & 300+HP - I'll have to comment again after I'm done with the builds.

Yeah those ecotec motors are pretty dam amazing. Have a 2.0 liter in my solstice and I have it up to around 320hp and 350lb tq at the wheels. Stock motor with exhaust and a tune. Could get it over 400 with a bigger turbo.

I had one in a rental car, I was amazed how smooth they are all the way to 7K. Neighbor is a 30+ year Cheby mechanic, says the only one he's had to replace was because of a wallmart oil change. And all aluminum !

215 hp is perfect. That's about what you'll get with a 3.0 with Webers and 914-6 heat exchangers. PMO's would solve the idle jet problem you can have with Webers.

The much storied Bruce Anderson 215 hp 3.0 was for a 914-6 and used 6 h/e's.

The 3.0 SC engine has so much low end torque you can start from a dead stop in 3rd gear, not that you need to do that much. It works pretty well with 914-4 gearing.

Yep,
Perry that is what mine is. (3.0 PMO's and stock gears)
Van914

wow, PMOs, very cool!

Ya'll will find 200 horsies in a 2000lb car when driven to YOUR limits gives you an E-ticket ride. Bout anybody can drive one at 70-80% but when you push yourself and the car to the edge that is when you find who & where the flaws are.

I found lots of guys that could drive the shitbox better than I could and listened when they spoke of the car's needs.....that's why it kept going faster......(brag coming)....right to the top level of Porsche AX competition....10:1 gave way to 7:1 but that is another story. The best way to piss off the 914 NARP detractors is to blow off all comers.

I guess I'm one of those AssHats. I'm on the quest for more power. My car however is set up for it. Former SCCA race car now street legal hot rod. Caged, braced, re-enforced, 930 suspension and brakes... Very predictable handling... I can drive too... I feel both the car and myself can handle more power. The real trick is knowing when to lift off the throttle... It is a skill...

I'll take 150hp over 200+hp every day, and I'd never complain about having 125. Anything less than that and it get's a bit anemic.

375 to 425 hp i have had less thats why i needed more.......

Well that was a really fascinating read, thanks for all your input. So the way I see it is like so..

Narrow body and with say 6-7 inch tyres anywhere between 150-220hp is ideal. This setup can be driven without huge suspension mods (front sway bar and a 911 front end brake setup with standard parts.)

Or a wide body with a total rebuild of the chassis is good for way more..

Now my decision is this then.. Do I lightly modify the 914 I have (a factory unmolested 1.7) to put the SC 204hp engine in, OR, Do I buy another shell and start stockpiling parts to build the 3.6 monster that we all know we really want?

I think I'll keep one standard and narrow and either buy a 911 :eek: Or find another 914 shell, save for a year or two and get it converted to RHD, 3.6L Motronic, Alcantara interior and spray it black.

Thanks guys, You've just cost me £30k

what did you do to your v8 to accomplish this?i am considering a 350 v8