Is anyone running 21mm torsion bars on a stock 914/4? How stiff is it? Just curious as I know sometimes even the little adjustment/upgrade in the suspension can be more than ideal..

I did 23mm bars...to stiff.
the best setup is stock torsion bars with a 21mm front anti sway bar and 140-180 lb rear adjustable springs.
Run koni adjustable shocks and with all of that underneath you , you can tune your suspension to a premium setup for autox, track or street....depends on your application.

rich

Thanks Rich! Your input is always one I read anywhere any topic. Right now I am on Billstiens all around with factory fr. and rear sway bars and factory torson bars, new rubber bushings and 100 lb. springs.. It is a nice ride but I am always open to learning, and the front just seems a bit softer than the rear but it is not enough to warrant that much changing or concern really, just knowledge at this point.

When I screwed up my first bushing install (poly) they were all pretty much siezed and rode like off road ride everywhere (kidney belt), but it turned/tracked like it was on rails very sweet!....

upgrade the front bar and dont be cheap about it.
Get a fully adjustable 21-23mm bar.
Save the stock bar for when you sell the car...someone will want it for cheap and they are getting hard to find.
The stock front bar is what...3mm... (I think its may be 15mm) and it really does not do enough.
Starrett makes a nice piece now.

That will make you smile....alot.
Once you are set with that...go for the 140lb progressive rear springs.
With that setup, you will be in a nice gokart.
Rich

depending on your total suspension front and rear, I have found that 21mm front torsion bars are best balanced with 180-200# springs.
Especially if you are running a large front sway bar.
21mm bars
22mm sway bar front
180-200# rears
all riding on Bil sports or Koni adjustables.
I have built 5 track/street/AX 914s over the years and the total package is what makes the difference

stock front bars work nicely with a 19mm front bar matched with 100 or 140s in the rear.

For a street car I would not go to 21mm front bars. My 2cents

my previous 914 ran
21mm bars
19mm front sway
180# rear springs
running on Koni adjustables front and custom valved Bils in the rear.

I would agree with Dan, but with a single acception.
I removed the heavy front bars on my car (autox and street)
For autox, they are too stiff and the stock torsion bars provide better and faster turn in...and they are free...you own them.

again it depends on what it is all balanced with .........yes the orange car had to be driven a certain way at AX, but was manageable.
The car was wonderful on the track....
Also helped the car was very low and ran custom 7" wheels with very sticky V710s
and yes, I had passed both of the cars in the second pic...
that pic is exit turn 11 at laguna

It depends upon the purpose of the car.
For track...big bars.
For autox and street...more tuning with smaller torsion bars

Rich

What a love fest

I'd never put 21's on a street car.

What would you do for a pure street car that needs suspension work on all 4 corners? I just bought Midtowner's '73 2L. It has 140lb. springs, old Konis that need to be replaced/rebuilt, and stock front/rear sway bars. The car has noticeable bump steer and I find the ride to be harsh. Looking for a more comfortable ride without losing too much of its responsive handling.

How about a 911 front end? The 911 front T bars are a bit heavier I think...I believe they are around the 19mm mark which makes them very nice for a street driven 914...that is what I did...along with a Tarret front bar, 150 pound springs (adjustable height), Koni shocks, and am still working out what bushings to go with next....probably Elephant rubber ones

what an excellent purchase for you....that car is a time capsule...
get new Bilstein shocks or get the Konis rebuilt.
Possibly new suspension bushings...when these get old brittle and dry I feel they add as much harshness to the ride as shocks and springs do.
Possibly got to 100# rear springs.
Raise the car just a bit will also help the ride and the bump steer.

Ride harshness is all in the the butt of the driver. What is harsh to you may be soft to someone else

Raise up the car and get 195/60/15 tires
Low profile tires contribute greatly to a harsh ride.
Aside from that, dont listen to anything Eric Shea has to say..

RIch

Mine is set up:
21mm bars
19mm front sway
180# rear springs
running on Koni adjustables front and rear
Elephant bushings front and rear

Rides great on the street and handles great at DE's.
Jason at Paragon's recomendation

Van914

If Erik's old car still has the same tire/wheel combination, it is running Factory Fuchs with something like 185 Michelins I believe...so he doesn' have low profile tires on there.
Car was pretty low for a pure street car the last time I saw it.
Biggest issues are most likely old tired suspension components and ride height.

We need to see some new pics of your new car.

van914 set up is good but stiff for street

comfy w good back country demeanor:
stock front torsion
19mm ADJUSTABLE front sway bar
140 progresive rear spring
no rear sway bar
195/60 15 tires
koni

still smooth but faster, street/AX:
19mm front torsion
19mm ADJUSTABLE front sway bar
165 progresive rear spring
no rear sway bar
205/50 15 tires
Bilstein

21mm with 180 require good dentistry for street use
big front torsion will need less sway bar
stock front torsion will need more sway bar
changes should be balanced proportionatly front to rear to maintain good chassis dynamics
there are acceptable compromises for sake of budget

I like mine to handle like a cart. It's a daily driver with a 993 motor so it's heavier than some other 914's. So I put as many things in the front trunk and as low as possible (i.e. Fuel cell, battery, oil cooler, fire system). Briefly...

Front:
23mm torsions
22mm anti-sway bar
Bilstein sport inserts
225/50 x 16 tires

Rear:
200 # adjustable height coil springs
Koni gas-adjustable shocks
no anti-sway bar, although I might re-install the one that came on the car now that I have a clutch-type LSD.
245/45 x 16 tires

I dial in handling with a combination of tire pressures, rear shock settings and front sway bar adjustments, in that order.

My teeth are ok so far.

Dan, you're right, the car is remarkably well preserved for being 38 years old and having 90,000 miles on it. It still boggles my mind that the paint is original. I feel very fortunate to have purchased it from Erik.

I am leaning (nudge, nudge) toward your idea of 100lb. springs, standard Bilsteins, and rubber bushings from Elephant. I think that will get the car close to a stock ride and still have adequate performance in the twistys.

Regarding pics, I actually haven't taken any of the car yet (other than a quick snap of it in the garage next to my '66 Mustang) but the car is exactly the same as the last time you saw it. Here is one of my favorites pictures, the famous one with your #5 in Erik's driveway:
Click to view attachment

I currently have:

21mm torsion bars
19mm sway bar
Koni Adjustabless
180lb rears springs

...and I am finding with a lot of "bite" up front I can spin the inside wheel and in general have more movement in the rear than I want. I'm trying 250lb rear springs this weekend if I get all the work done. With the Koni's dialed back its a firm, but acceptable ride around town.

Aaron,
Talk with Brad, he suggested I go back to stock front bars...and it works.
With konis and the adjustable front bar, you can really tune the front perfectly if you go back to stock bars.
Right now, you need to add way more to the rear springs to gain the adjustability back....

I hope that makes sense, but try stock bars up front and turn the konis on full stiff up front, and move the arms on your sway bar closer to the bar a bit...and tune with the drop links on the bar.

It took me a few runs to get it right, but set them, take a run, then set them again....you will really feel the difference.

Rich

What Dan said.

I really like stock sway bars for a street car. It takes that Chris*Craft feeling away from the car. If it were mine, I would:

* Leave the stock sway bars. These are perfectly balanced for a street 914. Maybe disconnect the rear bar if you have the 140's
* Leave the stock torsion bars. Excellent for street and autocross where you want your suspension to work with you not against you.
* Maybe put some simple bump steer washers in there if you want to have it ride that low.
* Pull the Konis and check to make sure they are set on "full soft". This gives you a very nice firm euro ride without the harshness. I rode in a 914 and the owner compained that it was harsh (and it was). Turns out her Konis were set to full hard. If they're bad, have them rebuilt or replaced.
* Replace the rear springs with the 90 or 100lb. variety.

That's what I would do.

You could also freshen up the shocks, go with a 19mm bar up front and retain the 140's. Most aftermarket 19mm bars would allow you to go as soft as the stock bars but then you could shorten the droplink on the arm and get a tighter bar to match your rears. This will make your ride more on the harsh side again.

Check that the shocks aren't on full hard though... big issue.

Rich,

Its on my todo list if the heavier springs don't work out. I built this car to do both POC STS and Autocross, so I want slightly more spring than the average autocrosser. I also run DOTR tires, which works the spring a bit harder...

I still have my stock torsion bars and this test will cost me nothing as I had everything but the springs - which Evan Fullerton is generously loaning me for the test.

I'm still of the mind set of using as little sway bar as possible to just balance the car out... I know thats not the method that most people here use, but I'm stubborn.