I'm in the process of rebuilding my engine, this is the first 914 I've owned or worked on. I was wondering if the aluminum biral cast iron piston & cylinder sets are better than the regular cast iron, and if there were any manufactures to stay away from.

Do a search using just the word "biral"

Here's one for you:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...72&hl=biral

IMO no it's not worth it.

Jake and/or Len offer a Nickasil set, http://www.lnengineering.com/
never heard of a Biral set for Type IV. 'Course, I don't know the difference between Biral and Nickasil

Birals are steel or cast iron sleeve with aluminum fins cast onto them. The theory is they are supposed to run cooler. Though the only ones I have ever run were on motorcycles. Have not had any problems with them, but of course motorcycles and teeners are a bit different, with probably different manufacturing methods.

First hand experience on type 4s would give you better info though.

how large are you going to go on the cylinders?
What is the purpose of the car?
that is really what will drive your decision.

Rich

Every time somebody mentions cylinders somebody else will say nickies are the only way to go. Yeah, they are, if you have an extra 3 grand sitting around. Well, duh. Yes, $3000.00 pistons and cylinders will be better than fucking $200.00 ones. No shit.

LN engineering used to offer birals for a better price than their nickies, but they stopped a long time ago. I dont know of any other mfr that makes any, and IIRC, the gains were negligible in cooling which is why they supposedly stopped.

Mark, your link is useless in this question. Biral is briefly mentioned and is not the focus of topic. Still interesting, though.

Charles only made a few sets of birals, price was not effective on a limited production basis to his standards.
Porsche also made them over a few years but also came to the conclusion that an all aluminum cylinder was superior in cooling, power output and most important longevity, compared to a biral cylinder.

Evil, the post and link meant: Use the search function, enter the keyword "biral" and DYI.
I just gave that link a quick glance and it was meant as an example of what you will find with a search.
Search works on google as well.

Original question, I personally think there's little to be gained by using a biral.
Slight cooling gain maybe but not really enough to justify it.

Face it, if there was a big enough gain and the quality was there Jake would sell it, no matter how much he liked Charles.

Kiss my ass, Canadian-Bear-Man

In the words of Cee Lo Green "Fuck You"

You use the words of a guy whose mother couldn't even spell his name?

The Cap'n

And the Canadian Igloo Dweller is off key.

It is " Fuck You-oo-oo"

OK, friendly hijack over

Every Time this comes up, it's always gotta use the Nikies . The guys that have used the cheap ones don't want to get flamed by the guys with the deeper pockets. The aa ones have been reported in the past to be ok for dd use, I have no experience either way. There is however always a set listed on cl in the sf bay area. Those are 2.0 Mahle standards for about 800 bucks.

I've not seen the benefits of a biral cylinder.. even the units offered by LN didn't result in cooler temps that were enough to justify their cost. I have actually had Biral experoience where the cylinders ran hotter than a cast iron counterpart.

I have one set of birals to test in an engine that I am putting together next month for exhaust system testing. Only time will tell..

BTW- Any relationship that we have with LN doesn't impact what we sell.. Charles doesn't care at all what we sell or don't sell. He can't keep up with what gets sold as it is and both of our comapnies have grown and diversified into other areas where we basically sell aircooled components and continue their development for nothing more than pure recreation.

porsche used biral cylinders in 356 and 911's E & S. T's had cast iron, up to the point when they went to Nikasil cylnders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

This response makes me . Somebody needed to say it, thanks!

Jim

I know a reputable, local air cooled engine builder who had big doubts about the 'inexpensive' AA piston/cylinder kits, because of the usual reasons. Though after quite a few experiences with them over several years, he has since changed his mind and now thinks they are a great value.

Someone was afraid (PM) we were having a man love spat, all is good and Evil is my bud.

..and Evil, I may be a Canadian-bear-man, who can't sing, but at least there's still fur on top of the igloo.

Oh and Cap'n.....how long have you lived in Cali? Still don't realize most performers names are fake?
BTW yes, I used the nickname "Cali" just to piss you off.

Ya, Mark and I are close buds. We were just poking fun at each other. Nothing but love Not BUT love.

Hey I didn't mean to start anything, didn't realize it was a sore subject. Was something I came across in the research (and yes I've even used the search feature) I've been doing since I bought my first 914 in November 2010. Started tearing it apart a few weeks ago to rebuild, and still had a few questions, thought I'd use another feature of this website and ask a question, sorry If I offended anyone, to the rest of you I appreciate the time you took, and the information provided.

I have found it very hard to beat OE cylinders with a nice torque plate hone job to 96mm.. Then couple that to a KB piston..

I racked up 160K miles on this arrangement then at rebuild time I simply honed the cylinder, trued the seating surfaces and threw some new rings on the pistons.. Its back together and did great through the dyno time, its now reinstalled back into my 912E and should be ready for service next week.

Actually after talking with my machinist we had decided to stick with the stock cylinders, and just change the pistons and rings. Glad to hear you got that many miles out of that rebuild, that is what I am trying to acheive. I'll look into the KB pistons. Still alot to learn, but thats half the fun, thanks for the information.

Dude, you started nothing. We are a bunch of monkeys here. Continue to ask,

Yep monkeys and parrots.

Ooo, covert, eloquent and so true.

Thanks, I'll post some pics when I get everything back and start putting it back together.

Hard to do with a 90mm 1.7, AA seems to be the only option for new P/c's.

Been thinking of going this route for my 1.7

You actually asked a very, very good question.
I am just an irritable prick some days. Most days.
Most guys here can deal with an honest prick, most days.
Good question.

..................And their is a damn good reason this technique, process works great....The Cylinders have taken a "set", meaning that the initial, warpage, from new is over, and the OEM cast cylinder material is better than any aftermarket cylinder. You can almost achieve the same thing with new cylinders. Put them in an oven (i,ve used an electric barbicue grill ), and "cook"them" at 300 degrees for 6 hours. let them cool down sloooowly to room temperature Check bore , rehone, check all surfaces for flatness.