As the title says - folks can poll on what maximum price they'd be willing to pay for a newly minted Dunlop SP57 165HR15 tire - as originally supplied on our 914s, in order to see if we can interest Dunlop to reproduce them in limited quantities. Out of the USA folks can use the Google currency converter to get dollars on the poll to their price in local currency.

PS - the last option in the number of tires that someone added for me is really "5 or more" - i.e.: you'll want a set of 4 + spare, or more than one set.

I know - less is better, but how much are they worth to you?

I've been corresponding with a supplier of Dunlop vintage racing tires about the possibility of Dunlop also reproducing the OEM Dunlop SP57 tubeless tires in 165HR15 size & speed rating (165/80HR15), as were originally equipped on many of our 914 2.0s & 914-6s with 15" wheels, and as options on 1.7 & 1.8 models - as shown in the pix below. They were also supplied on 911s, 912Es & many other sports cars & coupes of that period (Opel GTs & Mantas, BMW 2002s & 2.8/3.0s, etc.).

They were well known as very "sticky" & great handling street & street-class AX/track tires back in the day. They would have the same cachet today - ostensibly with modern rubber compounds, as well as being new versions of exactly correct fitment tires for the CWs, and for those who prefer this 165HR15 size for correct fit, accurate speedo & odometer readings, better fuel mileage, etc.

At this point in time, there are only imperfect options for our 914s spec'd for 165HR15 tires, including:

1. A few 165/80R15 tires out there in SR & TR speed ratings made by Bridgestone and a couple of mass market suppliers in the $75-100+ range (see speed ratings info below),

2. Vredestein offers their Sport+ 165HR15 for $107 in an average passenger tire looking tread,

3. Michelin offers the XAS 165HR15 tube-type for nearly $290 (with tubes) which won't perform properly when mounted on our OEM 15x4.5 & 15x5.5 "J" tubeless type rims (tire movement causes tubes to catch/pinch & pop),

4. or their period up-size optional XWX 185/70VR15 tubeless tires for $407 each (has about a 0.8% odometer error over 165s),

5. and Pirelli is also rumored to be repopping their CN67 or CN72 Cinturato's in 165HR15 - but they too will be tube-type.

6. There are also Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein & other tires in the 155 & 165SR15 sizes & speed rating, but these were spec'd for the 1.7L 914s and many 912s & some 356s.

The latter tire was spec'd for the 912's 1.6L & 914 1.7s & 1.8s, because the SR was only a 112 mph speed rating. Whereas, the 914-6s, 914-2.0s, 911s & 912Es with the 2.0 generally had higher top speeds to warrant spec'ing the 130 mph HR tires (TR at 118 mph was not around back then, and VR was 149 mph & was spec'd for higher performance 914GT's, 911 E's & S's, etc., and used for better grip in AX & track use for 914 6's & 2.0's as an optional upgrade - e.g.: with the M471 option IIRC).

As with the prospective Dunlop SP57 repops - the Michelins & Pirelli's above were always higher priced tires than the other more run-of-the-mill brands back in the day, and they are limited run reproduction vintage tires today - so a bit more pricey than the mass market tires generally made in China today in the SR & TR sizes below $120 today - Vredesteins fall somewhere in between (not sure where they're made), but their tread doesn't look much like a sport tire, as much as a passenger touring type often used on the Brit sedans of the day.

That's the current range of original fitment tires, and you can read up more on these less than perfect options at this thread: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...=44&t=74857

So, the question comes up as to what the 914 & Porschephile public worldwide out there would be willing to pay for such repops?
... and whether it's worth Dunlop's while to do so?
... they think we'd need interest in at least 200+ tires for a short run, at a marketable price.
Ergo - the reason for the poll.

So please weigh in on this poll as to what you'd be willing to pay for reproductions of the original tires which came on your 914, which I will share with the Dunlop supplier & he with their limited run factory in the UK.

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
> FYI - these last two pix above are from the Jan. 73 MT & Feb. 73 R&T Test articles on the then new 914-2.0/"914S".

.

What say you!!??

We don't want to give the supplier the bullets to shoot us with.

If the poll shows we'd pay $400 then the price won't be any lower, and might be higher. Whatever we poll, we don't want that number to go to the seller.

A better poll would be how many tires we'd buy and then let them bid on the price.

What if we come up with 400 tires? That might give us leverage on the price.

How 'bout a new poll for quantity?

I understand the concern Bill, but the issue is trying to determine price elasticity, so they can see how fast volume drops as price increases.

On their end, they need to look at numbers vs. price vs. their cost to produce at volume. Their bullets are there, in that it's a vintage tire, we don't know yet if they still have the molds, and a limited production run, so pricing will probably fall in the range of other similar vintage tire short runs.

With this type of production, a larger number will result in a lower per unit cost/price, no matter what we vote here. That leverage will still be there with more volume, so get your buddies with other cars that had these back in the 70's to vote too.

So it's best to put whatever price seems reasonable to each person, before you get the "willies" over shelling out that much (no pun intended Steve W. ).

If I had only asked how many tires wanted on here, then everyone would say it depends on the cost per! It's kind of a chicken & egg dilemma.

This poll doesn't form a scientific survey nor a contract to buy, but is only intended to get an idea of what the demand might be. I have my idea of where the bell curve will peak, but I'll keep it to myself, so as not to contaminate to poll (& I did a null vote for myself).

If somebody can tell me how to modify the poll, then I think I can add a 2nd question on number wanted to purchase 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+ & I can correct my spelling error in the 1st set!
..... anyone know how?? ..... or maybe one of the moderators can get in there & add a second question on how many?

Dang! Why didn't I think to do that 2nd question too!!??

I think that they would be a hit is sold for the same price as the lousy, soft side walled Vredestein tires. They would also best of all look factory original which is very very important to all of the concours guys. If they made them with modern materials but the vintage look it would even be better. I am sure that the 911 912 and 914 guys would buy the whole run. We would even advertise them on our website.

The old materials worked well for me as I drove over 40,000 miles on each of my first 4 sets of tires. They were Michelins which was what my 1973 had on it when I drove it off the new car lot that year.

My 1970, 914-4 has two of the original tires on it (this car is not now on the street).

On assumes that even on new tires, the age of the rubber and not milage will be the limiting factor in determining long term durability.

I'm sure Coker Tire could tell anyone the price point necessary to make such a project work.

Looking at their prices, either it's more expensive than you think, or they are making a killing on these vintage tires (or more likely a mixture of the two).

I seriously doubt 400 tires would make a dent in any tire manufactures budget ...

Andy is spot on. Dunlop will make (and has made) several of their vintage tires – but you will pay for them. We just put these on the C-type replica last month. They are a reproduction of their 50’s race rubber. They have been making them for many years (so no special run or anything) and they are still 450.00 each. We found this particular set on the east coast. They were used, but very little (still have all of the flashing on them) and they were still over 250 each. I would love to know the margins on these things, as well as the stuff Coker/etc sells.

I'll step up to mike right now, and state that I will buy five of them - so long as they are less than $400/each complete! And are warrranted.
Pat

I may have voted the wrong way and other as well, I bought 5 tires for 500.00 installed, good tires too not the bottom just a sweet deal.. And when reading this now I understand and see the value for what they are,.. Yes if I restored to the period and that was what I was doing, I would be right along with Pat and his price set of $400 each.. Then I would not ever hardly drive on them if at all..

Is it 40 year old tire technology too? I would not buy these but only because they will not fit my 9x16's. I think these would be good for the concourse guys. If you actually drive your 914, there are better tires built with modern technology to make your car drive and handle better.

Thanx to whomever fixed the poll for me on the numbers to buy question that I forgot to add!

I was too tired & hurried when I set it up - not to mention - as I've been cranking on a report since last Wednesday & just now finished at almost 2:00 am Monday/Tuesday!

Also Thanx for all of your input, please spread the word for others to weigh in too.

I remember seeing someone on here recently paid $150 or $175 for a single 30+ year old SP57 from the classifieds for his "show spare".

As I understand it, if reproduced now, it would be by the same UK factory that does the small runs of their vintage racing and street car tires, using the period molds and design, but with modern materials. I guess I'd call them mixed tire technology. So they might wear &/or handle a little better than the original SP57s, but wouldn't be like the new "crazy tread" high performance tires of today, but then who knows.

In agreement with Joe - in my mind, their final price will determine whether I'd use them for driving, or just for show, as I plan to do both with mine when done with the resto.
- but hopefully more than !

The SP57s and the less costly Semperit M201/M401 tires were the best handling tires on 914s in the stock 165HR15 size back in the day, but the SP57s were a softer rubber and wore faster - especially under hard driving, maybe 10-20k miles. Whereas the Sempi's you could pay a little less, drive just as hard with as good handling, but get 20-40k miles on them (and per both MT & R&T tire tests of the day) - but Semperit doesn't export to the US anymore, let alone make their vintage tires.

PS - I'd be looking for a full set of 5 myself, with repeats of 4 as the wear out - assuming that they were priced low enough to not give me heart failure when they wear out!

Cheers All Y'all!
Tom
///////

Same as Pat: I would take 5, for 400$

Marco.

Tom:

Any evidence to this statement?

Back in the day, I used XAS with tubes on both 4.5 and 5.5 "J" type rims without problems. Logged a lot of track time on them too.

Today I use them on my 5 bolt Mahle's without any problems.

From my exchanges with Coker, they use the original molds with the latest tire fabrication technology. They have to to meet current DOT requirements.

James, that's what I was told by my tire guys back in 1980 when Semperit stopped producing the M401s, Dunlop had stopped the SP57s & Michelin stopped their tubeless XZX or XWX in this size - and they could've sold me the more expensive XAS with tubes, instead of the Kleber's I got (3x more).

As it was explained/shown to me then, there is a difference in the bead design on tubeless tires and the edge bead of the tubeless rims which hold in the tubeless tires air tight, but can wreak havoc on the tube-type tires lacking the interlocking bead.

It makes it easier in the installation for a tube to get stuck between the rim and tire bead and pop later under driving stress and movement (if it doesn't pop right away).

Also, the non-matching bead allows for more movement while cornering and after heat/cool cycles of use and wear "loosen" the rubber, such that a tube can actually get caught while the sidewall is flexing (since the bead isn't locked in the rim as it would be on a tube type tire), and then pinch and pop.

Yes people use them on tubeless type rims without incident, but IMHO - that's luck, not proof to the contrary. Besides, why pay an extra $30+ per tire for a tube when you can get a tubeless without the hassle?

From what I understand, Dunlop does the same on their repops as Coker, but am not sure if they go through the formal DOT approval process. it's apparently expensive and time consuming on limited production tires, so all of the majors label many of their vintage repops as "racing" or "track use only" to get around that formal process (including Michelin, Pirelli, Bridgestone, Goodyear, Firestone, Avon, Dunlop, etc.).

Since it was an approved tire before, there may be a streamlined process that they could use or still go under as the old approval, and perhaps that's what Coker uses (and not all of Coker's tires are DOT approved for street use).

In any case, they'll be safer & more solid, than a 30+ year old set sitting in some warehouse, on a spare or on a car I would bet!

Since the SP57's were no longer available, back in 2003 prior to Parade, I purchased Dunlop 165R15 SP20's to put on the Sahara Beige 914. I would have loved to put on 4 SP57's to match the original spare but that wasn't possible. However as you probably know, Parade Preservation Group Judges only care that the tire is the correct size. They don't care about tread pattern or the manufacture. They also overlook the battery although I don't know what they think about the Optima which certainly isn't period correct looking. Having said all that, I would still love to have a brand new set of SP57's on SB. It would certainly be the icing on the cake.

...... & vote!

If it helps any, I'd look at them for mine in 2 ways: less than $150 or so each as a driver + show set (dual use) - but north of $200 or so each, then they'd probably sit on a set of wheels for show only, & I'd get some < $100 drivers on another set of wheels.

I'd be getting a set of 5 to start with, then replacements as needed if in the driver price range above.

I did a "look at results only" awhile back not realizing that that actually gave me "no vote" DOH! So I couldn't vote now anyhoo!

Plz vote for both price & how many tires you'd want (last option should read 5 or more).

We've got 63 votes, but not all are voting on number - so the 21 or so votes there roughly comes out to 80+ tires so far. If all 63 votes were avg. of 4 apiece, then that's about 250+ tires for an informal interest list so far. Not bad from just old 914 folks, plus more from the old 911s, 912s & other makes crowd using them.

I have one of those tire on the spare rim. Its been sitting in the basment for 20 years. Iv always thought the "S" in the tread was for Spare. Thanks for edumacatig me

Edumacation is good at any age!

I've been otherwise detained for awhile, but am hoping a few more of you will weigh in on interest in getting these OEM Repops from Dunlop in the 165HR15 Tubeless SP57s as factory spec'ed on the 914-6 & 914-2.0 models for 70-76 MYs.

After another week or so, then I'll recontact the supplier to see if it's enough demand to convince Dunlop's UK retro tires plant to start producing a run of these.

Any ideas of how to get a similar poll in front of the 911 folks on which these were also spec'ed?

IIRC the 911T's & L's & E's used HRs (S's used VRs) & 76 912E's too.

Oh..... & don't forget to vote for both price range & quantity on the poll!

Jim - here's the poll.

Any more votes?

I would not buy any nor do I think they are worth shit. Why go back in time if you crave performance?

That being said the Concours market is getting bigger by the day. These would be a big hit for any 911, 912 and 914 Concours owner.

I hope it gets done.

D

Actually Derek they are worth shit - even today for the best balance of handling & good mpg - these Dunlop SP57 were excellent tires in 165HR15.

If we could still get Semperit M201 &/or M401 tires, then those would be equally as good, but they were about 50-60% less than SP57s back in the day, & were also factory issue along with Conti's & Michi's.

Even for DD - everything doesn't have to be big low profile fatties on bigger rims to have a blast driving a 914!
.... but this was more applicable to the CW users, depending on the price.

Thanx for you support of the cause though!

.

FYI ALL - I still need to get to some of the other 911/912/930 & other marques' user sites to get an interest level from them, before I go back to see if this distributor can convince Dunlop to add these to their vintage tire runs. I've just been buried lately!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

I am loving my current Dunlop Star Spec street tires for cruising and AX racing. My 914 had Dunlops when I bought it, they were pretty sticky too. I would like to see the repro done with the Star Spec sticky rubber. They claim 200 wear rating, but I have heard more experienced racers say this is way off, they are stickier than all other 200s.
Good luck w this! I voted

Thanx Chris!

Even the 1970's SP57 rubber was super sticky & very soft! It's main problem was that the rubber was so soft & sticky that you were lucky to get 10-12k out of them!

Those Semperits which I mentioned tested just behind the SP57 & VERY close in performance, and way ahead of the Conti's & Michelins which came on 914s, & were also almost as good as Pirellis of the day. Howver, the Sempi's easily got you 20-30+k miles out of a tire. Tread pattern was similar too the SP57 too -
Click to view attachment

And for those ready to ask - no Semperit won't make any vintage tires cuz they're strictly Europe now and they only do mainstream tires - typically very good tires at a very competitive price. So that formula leaves out vintage markets!

.... any more votes?

So, any new updates?

Not yet Bill.

I guess I'll need to find a way to poll interest from 911/912 types as well as the other makes from the 60's-70's that used them, in order to get the numbers up for adequate volume.

Also, the poll shows that the CSOBs on here are real dreamers who are willing to pay more for 205+ "modern" tires when 80% want them for less than $150 (40% less than $100), or for AX & track tires - than they'll for period correct sticky 165s!

I mean really!!?? ....REALLY!!??
.... those SP57 tires were $50 +/- apiece in the 70's, which with inflation equates to about $400+ a pop - about the same price as the 185/75VR15 Michi XWX tires from the M471 package cost today from Lucas, Coker, etc.!

Possibly the same ones who complain that the $105 Vredesteins are crap, or will "settle" for $200+ 165HR15 Michi XZX, or will pay $275 for tube type 165HR15 XAS!

I found the lack of willingness to pay for good tires a bit disappointed from this group of "enthusiasts".

I have too many irons in the fire right now to run it down, but hope to later this year or make it a new year resolution!

There are many choices available in 185/60/15, which are similar in size to what was the OEM issued tire.

They are all around $100 a piece.

BFGoodrich
Bridgestone
Continental
Dunlop
Firestone
General
Goodyear
Hankook
Kumho
Michelin
Pirelli
Sumitomo
Yokohama

All listed on TireRack.com

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?ti...F&tab=Sizes


KT

As a side point, I don't know that you can reliably compare modern tires, today's treadwear ratings and prices with what was available 40 years ago.


KT

KT -

That is not a very good replacement size alternative, since 185/60xR15 has a relatively large speedo/odo error of 6.5%, 185/70R15 is the closest to 165(/80)R15 at 0.8% & 185/75R15 is next at 2.1%, & even the 195/65R15 is closer at only 1.6% & were the Porsche AG recommended replacement size.

See Tire size calculator here:
http://www.914world.com/specs/tirecalc.php

>>>>

This poll's purpose is to gauge the interest in those interested in getting a repop production by Dunlop's vintage tires division in the UK, of the OE tires on many of our 914s (914-6, 914-2.0, 914-1.8) & other cars of that vintage which used their excellent 165HR15 SP57 tires. It's not meant to discuss general non-original tire size options on here.

But do be careful with some of those brands you've listed, because many are now using inferior rubber, as I've found out with some fairly new `08 tires for my 85 BMW 325e with <12k miles on them since mid-`08 already having severe sidewall & in-tread cracking already, while the `02 spare is still perfect! China is again passing off crappy materials on the unsuspecting world market - now with crappy rubber in tires!

There is a full discussion of tires sizes at the Originality & History Forum's "Tires & Wheels" nailed thread FYI.

That tire is a tough sell Tom. The % of people doing like delivered restos are few and far between. The more modern options, with better grip and size choices make buying a vintage tire hard to justify at any cost. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for seeing them reproduced.
Checkout Longstone tires. Many more choices than what Coker offers. My car came with the XZ, so I settled for the XZX repop from Longstone. I like the looks and it performs reasonably well. It uses modern compounds which is a plus.

KT - modern repops are made by the respective vintage tire divisions - Dunlop, Michelin, Pirelli & Vredestein, etc. - with modern rubber, and since they're limited run for the car collectors - they'd be higher priced than new/current tires in mass production anyway, due to the latter's larger number of millions of tires to amortize across, vs. a few thousands of vintage repops.

If Dunlop's new synthetic rubber materials do have supeior wear - relative to the relatively soft & sticky 1960-70's SP57's rubber, then that may cure the SP57's one significant fault - usually getting only 10-20k miles out of a tires, vs. 30-40k+ form their competitors.

Back then the Semperit M401/M266 tires with similar dog-bone tread design had almost equal performance as judged by the auto mags. back then - but with 30-40k tread life, & they were one of the 914 OEM suppliers of tires on many new 914s. So that's actually what was on my 73 914-2.0 spare from new, & what I used back then.

But Semperit is not interested in producing any of their vintage tires at all, whereas the others will & do.

I don't think that DOT requires "new ratings" be made available for repop vintage tires form the original tooling, so these would be marked as originally, as are the Michelins, Pirelli's, other Dunlops, etc. found at Coker Tire's, Lucas Tire's, Universal Tires, & the other vintage tire sellers' websites.

It would be fun to know what percentage of current 914 owners are running on OEM sized tires.


Interesting project.


Have fun!


KT

Tod,

I agree with you on the limited market, which is why I'll need to go to the 911/912/912E crowd, BMW, MG, Alpha, Jag & other makes of the period to get enough of us CW nuts to convince Dunlop to do these.

I've been to Longstone, & Lucas that I noted above is their USA distributor - so anything on Longstone's website, Lucas can order for you.

The XZX is a SR rated tubeless - 165SR15 - as used on the 914/4 & 914-1.7 models by Porsche's spec. & ran about $200 each IIRC.

Whereas, the Michi XAS is 165HR15, but it's a tube type & ran $275 each + $35 per tube = $310 each IIRC, which is the correct HR speed rating for the 914-6 & 914-2.0 (1.8 I believe too?), but it's a problem to mount a tube tire on tubeless type rims, according to the tire store experts.

The tubeless but soft sidewalled Vredestein 165HR15 Sport Plus are about $115 now I think, with more of a contiunuous zig-zag tread pattern found on 70's passenger cars & 1950-60's Brit sports cars, & they weren't a USA OEM supplier in the 1970's - so that's a few things against them.

IIRC we went through all these options when you were hunting tires for your prior `73 Bahia Red 914-2.0's resto.??