A cross post from the land of the penguins. Read the top and find the petition link at the bottom of the first page of the thread. Scary stuff - Suby converterers might be in a good place.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...s-91-newer.html

Full text of that post:

Morons. Lets see... higher fuel cost, less mileage (double whammy more expensive to go a shorter distance) and higher food costs. We lose.

All thanks to wacked out enviro nuts, and sustainable growth overlords, that think you should be forced out of your car or forced to buy a new Socialist Government Motors car are behind this. dont forget the big corn farmer lobby either, that have bought the politicians.

time to vote these rascals out of office for forcing this crap on us.

so many politicains hate your car hobby, they treat us like serfs, or worse, and have totaly disregard to your pursuit of happieness. (one of our God given rights)

besure to study the stance your representative has on these issues, and if they fail the test, vote them out, and donate heavily to their opponents. there is a growing group of political elites that are waging war on us car hobbists, they want to dictate every aspect of your life. fight them at the ballot box.

Only you can prevent these types of insane laws

I suspect it has mostly to do with a strong farm lobby.

S

You forgot more pollution.

S

On their map of ethanol free stations, how do you like the big void within California?
Mark D.

Go to the Dollar stores, they have octane booster for $1. I run it in all my stuff. I get 1-2 mpg better using the stuff and no valve clatter pulling loads.

It has everything to do with the farm lobby.

That reminds me - while reading the manaul for the Magnum, it says to stay away from octane boosters due to "high concentrations of methanol".

It also says to not kill yourself too... There are some interesting things in there....

Just read the post (though not the full text)

So, they've over-produced and need a way to offload more ethanol. I say that aware of the fact that it's a major run-up to get policy changed to push the E-15 stuff.

The EPA tells automakers that despite their caution on older cars having issues with pumps, hoses and seals, testing has shown that the emissions control items will be fine. A moot point if the car does run. Also, there's the fact that all you're doing is offloading the sources of the emissions to other points in the processing of the ethanol. And there's the potential for reduced economy in vehicles that are not tuned to use this. (I know turbo guys get pretty happy about E85 though).

There's also the fact that running higher blends of ethanol is listed as dangerous in some engines (mostly 2-stroke), which makes me wonder why it won't scale down if they're also including 4 stroke small engines.

It's a positive sign of the power of lobbying. Perhaps we need to get a national classic car owners group established to lobby against these changes?

That's as political as I'll get here.

If you're going to cross post your own post on another forum, then cross post the full text and don't make us have to go tot he other forum. I've added the full text from the pelican forum thread post to your first post in this thread.

If you guys can't keep your political comments out of this thread, it will be closed. And I'd prefer that it remained open.

I signed the petition ..... not that the Goobermint will listen to their constituents anyway.

I signed the petition and forwarded to some other gear-heads, boaters, and airplane builders in the neighborhood.

I just received a couple of rebuild kits for my Dells--I think the current gasoline mix (10% ethanol) ate the pump diaphragms, and various seals and o-rings. Probably be rebuilding them this weekend.

Pretty amazing about all of the unintended consequences associated with ethanol. I read where it's even jacking up the cost of tequila

Seems that ethanol production has raised the price of corn, so many growers are plowing under agave and replanting with corn for a quicker ROI. Less agave will mean higher tequila prices and/or lower quality--maybe both.

Just playing the devils advocate here, but everyone is always chiming in, Buy American! Well, that will be 15% less oil we buy from the middle east, right? Guess that just pushes me one step closer to do the Ecotek motor swap.

I had a pretty good portion of my 914 thread devoted to this subject. E15 was producing some nasty gummy stuff in the carbs within just a few days. I would have to pop the carb tops off almost weekly.

Stable really helped a lot, pretty much kept them clean.

Sitting fuel exposed to O2 is what causes the "gummy" to happen. It looked like a brown-ish hair gel?

It made me convert back to FI (L-Jet on a GC 2.0).

Yesterday I fired up the 914 for the first time in 9 weeks. Ran perfect, never missed a beat and I haven't used any fuel additives since going back to FI.

I think the key is the system is sealed and under pressure.

That's my experience with E15. It's reaking havoc on my 2275 T-3 Squareback with dual carbs.

I totally forgot about the stabil thing, so this mornings tank had some of that dropped in. Hopefully it clears up the sludge.

I had a car that got 19mpg on regular and 16mpg with ethanol 10%. The car had a 20 gallon tank.

19mpg * 20gallons (20g gasoline) = 380miles
16mpg * 20gallons (18g gasoline + 2g ethanol) = 320miles

to travel 380 miles with ethanol blend = 23.75 gallons
23.75gallons - 10% ethanol = 21.375g gasoline

Stupidity at it's finest.

Run Stabil, raise your compression a bit (optional), and fatten up your jetting a touch. Done.

if the politics stayed out of our gas tank, maybe we wouldn't have to mention it here on this car hobby site.

Only thru our action in politics can we fight the politicans that are aginst our car hobby.

From your statement, it appears some admins are anti-collector car or some how beholden to the politicans that what to ruin our car hobby. That is really un-American, shame shame on you.

The whole purpose of this thread is stopping politics from getting in our gas tanks, and ruining our cars.

Why does it always have to be about name calling?

Yes, we should have a petition.
Yes, we should point out that there are politicians who don't like our choice of hobbies.
Yes, we should use a petition to redress our grievances.

But do we have to take potshots at the folks who run this board? It's not like the admins of this site are the ones who control the process of what fuels are sold in this country.

Good info. What's important is what this ethanol does to the seals and gaskets and how to minimize the damage - Stabil (or is it Stable?).

You are really pushing your luck (again) and you know it.

This is your last warning, my finger is hovering over the "banned" button ...

Old car hobbyists numbers are dwindling and so is their influence with people who determine our laws and environmental controls. The younger generation of car enthusiasts are tuning new cars with approved tuning parts that supposedly don't adversly affect the environment. In California it's possible to buy a new car (if you can afford it) that doesn't require a smog check for the first five years of it's life, add many unapproved tuner parts and after five years return it to stock, sell it and buy a new car again. People like myself who still have carbs. on their car and try to tune to performance rather than fuel economy will have to deal with new laws being passed and fuel additives that supposedly improve the environment. This country is market driven and if there is a market for additives to deal with alcohol added to gas then it might be widely available. When you consider how few old Porsches are on the road, we have almost NO power at all.

But when you add in all the old Chevys, Fords, etc which are still tooling around you start to get real numbers. If ethanol is bad for our cars' rubber fuel lines and carb seals then its bad for those parts in your neighbor's '66 Mustang as well.

S

Here's a summary from what I've gathered (I use EtOH for ethanol out of habit):

- EtOH absorbs water from the air readily. This can be a big problem for smaller carburetor-equipped motors will likely have issues with gumming up using higher EtOH-enhanced fuels, particularly if you're not in the super-dry deserts of the country. It's also pretty bad for small 2-stroke motors (it apparently can separate the oil from the oil-fuel mix as well as introduce water)
- Most of the issues with respect to the solvent properties of EtOH affecting gas tank lining materials, valves, etc. could be addressed by improved or upgraded parts. Expensive, but one should acknowledge this can be done.
- Similar to previous point, cars could be converted to FI instead of carburetors, but that means no more Old School. Again, just acknowledging things.
- EtOH has a lower energy density than most other compounds in gasoline, making it simply less-efficient when compared to "pure" gasoline. So you gotta burn more of it to go the same distance you would with gasoline.
- EtOH does not - repeat not - stop so-called greenhouse gas emissions, particularly carbon dioxide. In fact, until the infrastructure gets better, EtOH-production from corn (mostly what we have in the US) uses quite a lot of energy to farm corn and make EtOH. This farming can drive up food costs. It is also currently subsidized, making the true economic studies inherently biased and speculative.
- EtOH does show promise, according to many economists and energy analysts. Like any major economic shift, it's the long run that should be looked at, not the immediate returns. Canada and US gov'ts seem to be banking on this. Compared to continuing blindly down a path of going until there just ain't no more gasoline, perhaps EtOH is the answer, if not part of the answer.
- EtOH in the US (from corn) is relatively inefficient as far as energy-in vs. product-out (see subsidizing above). A big reason is that the starch in corn has to be converted to sugars before it can be fermented to EtOH (ask any home brewer about that). This costs energy and fuel in and of itself. The process also produces lots of cellulosic waste (corn cobs, unfermented material, etc). There are some concepts to convert that left over stuff into EtOH using genetically engineered bugs of some kind (can't remember exactly), and that technology is coming on line soon. EtOH from sugar cane is a lot easier and uses less energy, which is why Brazil can run so much EtOH vehicles.
- EtOH actually increases ground-level ozone pollution compared to gasoline due to higher aldehyde (mostly acetaldehyde) emissions which react with sunlight to eventually break down into ozone (which is needed some miles up in the atmosphere, but not so much down here on the ground). These aldehydes could be broken down by catalysis like other (NOx mostly) currently are in vehicle's catalytic converters, but again - more cost, and uncertain performance effects.
- By the way, the more EtOH in gasoline, the higher its relative stability under compression - or the higher octane rating it will have. So highly-EtOH enhanced fuel has a rather high octane rating - good for turbos. Still, those motors will go right through it faster'n hell.

Bottom line, EtOH production (and at least for many of us with older cars) its use as a motor fuel has lots of problems ... one should compare them to the main problem it's production is meant to solve (the economic risk of international oil dependency) and make up their own mind.

All that info without any name calling ...

All this is nothing new here. Gas has been separating for years here. Never a problem with FI, but dirtbikes and my boat hates it. You could actually shake up old gas, put in a clear container, and within a half hour see a line forming from separation. The fuel we have now is horrible on standard rubber, has been since MTBE. I can remember in the late 80's being able to buy 93 octane fuel that was 10% ethanol, so whats another 5%.

Makes converting to some sort of FI for the 914 and the 715 seem like a good idea.

Zach

+1


+2


Ethanol is not as good as the environazis thought! Of course they only figure it out after they got congress to subsidize it, with our tax dollars over the past few decades.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/e...vironment_N.htm

FWIW, the idea with any of these "bio" fuels is carbon reduction and decreased dependance on foreign oil. The plants/organisms can only absorb as much as they produce. So if done properly its closer to a Net_0 than fossil fuels. Personally I'm really excited about some of them...

It is coming. All we can do is to start to adapt and work with it. That's the horse I'm betting on anyway.

I gotta ask. Will the ethanol evaporate out if the gas were left open to the atmosphere?

I *think* it will absorb water and gel before it would evaporate.

Maybe, but even worse, it will suck in moisture from the air.

Duh. I read right over that, thx. 15-20 yrs ago there were a group (4 or 5) of yellow RV-3's that flew on 100% alcohol from corn. I believe his name was Max and was a professor at the U of Baylor. IIRC they were all Lycoming 0-320 8.5 to 1 comp. My comp is down so I'm doing this on my cell otherwise I would google it. He would surely have some valuable input for our very similar engine systems.

One very, very important thing that is overlooked in the ethanol deal. That is our limited non-replinishable source of ground water. We are getting close to the point where we will soon be seeing the "bottom of the barrel" on the large aquifiers in the US. At that point, all of a sudden, water to grow food will become very important. Then, when it is too late, we all (including politicians) will be wishing that we had not used any agriculture products to make gasoline replacements. If we are growing corn on land (irrigated or not), it is being used instead of growing food. In other words, the land used to grow the corn could be used to grow crops that are currently irrigated. We can always generate energy using nuclear, etc., but we cannot otherwise make food without water. It is all a sham to redistribute the wealth to the agribusinesses, etc.

JoeO

From my research corn is one of the worst ways to generate ethanol... I personally only see ethanol as a stop gap measure to better bio fuels and or pure electric propulsion (be it battery/fuel cell/flux capacitor).

I maintain the Caltech fleet of EV's, so I've learned a thing or two...

I see that there is an "ethanol-sucking" product by Stabil. I've only used their normal winter stabilizing product. Any experience here with their other products in our cars?

How in the hell did you get that from what I posted? You really are nuts dude.

I think that is correct. As I stated earlier, cars that have fuel bowls vented or fuel tanks vented are more prone to this than sealed FI systems. When I converted my 914 back to FI, I made sure I had a 100% charcoal can, expansion tank, all new vac and breather lines.

I've been running this way for months and thousands of miles. No adding anything to the fuel, just fill the tank and go. So far, so good.

When I was running carbs, man oh man, almost a daily frustration of "I just blew out the jets yesterday!"



Running Stabil really helped a lot and is probably the quickest, easiest way to combat E10 or E15.

I first learned about the negative impacts of Ethanol from a Marine shop. Mechanic said it was just gumming up boat carbs faster than people could fill the fuel tanks.

All you need is the "Marine" Stabil. Been fine for me for over a year. I only have problems when I forget to add it and let the car sit for a month.

He said on the German car forum.



Not so sure about that. I was at an AACA swap meet yesterday that was packed with thousands of people of all ages with hundreds of vendors present. It looks to me like the hobby is growing and the politicians, as usual, are completely out of touch with the public.

The worst part about this whole ethenol policys. I work retail and i mentioned it to dozens of customers.....

Only a hand few had any idea what I was talking about. And even if they did know... they didnt care about it Multiply that by millons of americans. We are the few, the strong. But... we are soon going to be buying gallons of gas by the bottle

Another sickening common sense observation. I recently read about that giant aquifer whatever its called in the midwest and how the farmrs are drilling deeper and deeper each year to get water. Oh, I remebered something from chemistry years ago. When you burn alchohol one of the byproducts is formaldehyde. A know carcinogen.

Like it or not, we ARE going to have to adapt, or be willing to pay bank for fuel. Back in the way back (even before Slits) folks had to buy gas in 1 or 5 gallon cans. That might be the way car guys that want pure fuel will have to buy it.

The rest of us will have to adapt to what ever kind of fuels are coming down the pike. Whether that fuel is ethanol from corn or algae or switch grass or sugarcane, it is still going to suck water out of the air and be hell on carbs. And we are going to have to use it.

So we can bitch, point fingers, and name call. Or we can find out the best way to make use of the new fuels. Bump compression. Use a fuel cleaner. Switch to FI. Do what you have to do.

The alternative is continuing to be tied to OPEC. I'd rather have to clean out gummy carbs in the spring, personally.

Zach

Thousands of people with hundreds of vendors. USA total population 300,000,000. I rest my case. We need to get behind people like SEMA who have some lobbying power. Polititians trying to move up the zigurat will try and pass laws that make them look good to their consitituants wether the law actually helps or not. The current California smog check laws are a case in point.

Desalinization

To hell with all ya all. I'm investing in Alcoa, it'll make sense given the number of tinfoil hats being built by participants in this thread.

/That and whoever makes ethanol tolerant seals, pumps etc.

Isn't necessity the mother of invention? When oil, fresh water and clean air are all gone some trillionaire will sell you a machine for your soul.

And with only 100,000 of those 300,000,000 showing up at the Super Bowl, the NFL is doomed too !

The point I am trying to make is in the middle of winter, which is the off season in these parts, on Super Bowl Sunday, in a down economy, at an event that had practically no advertisement or publicity, there was still an overflow crowd looking to buy parts for old cars.

Thought this link was fairly informative.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additiv...h_e10_list.html

Unfortunately, even SEMA is behind the clean green now. Just saw a documentary on them putting together "clean" engine packages for hot rodders. They are in the aftermarket parts business, and ethanol will only help there sales as everyone will need to go fuel injected. I personally don't care if we use ethanol or not. I have the new R9 hoses, E85 rated injectors, and megasquirt. I'm all set.