The car was making some weird noises today, so I popped open the engine lid, and noticed one of the spark plugs was wobbling back and forth in time with the engine - D'oh!

Pulled out the plug, it was not even hand tight. Plug looks totally fine, some threads are very clean, I assume it was leaking for a bit. The amusing thing is that I couldn't really feel the car behaving differently, I guess the idle jumped around a little bit more than normal today.

I can't see inside the hole very well, but I assume the threads in the head are screwed up. I can't see how they wouldn't be with the plug wobbling around like it was.

I threaded in the plug enough to get home, but didn't tighten it up. I assume when I do it there's a very good chance it will strip. I'll try to get a pic if I can, I couldn't get my head far enough into the engine compartment to inspect the threads.

What's the best course of action now? Tighten up the plug and see if it holds? If it strips, can I fix it in the car or do I need to pull the head? Which thread inserts are the best?

(Oh, and this is a 2056 type IV. First time I've ever lost a spark plug!)

In college I was driving my buick skylark to the airport to fly home for the holiday.
I was running late ( college student...duh ;-).

Heading for Okla. City from Norman, and the engine starts getting louder & louder until BLAHHHHHH, it made a hellua racket, so I pull over.

I look under the hood and immediately notice, one plug wire just laying there and the associated plug GONE!

CRAP! Now how am I going to get to the airport ontime???

While standing there wondering how mad my parents will be having to change my ticket, I look down and what do I see???? The plug was jammed in the engine mount!!!!
When it blew out of the engine, it bounced off the hood and stuck in the MM.

I pulled it out, screwed it in hand tight, connected plugwire & was off and running.

I made my flight.

Someone was looking over my shoulder that day.

Stu

I had a squareback that suffered the same. I blew a plug out north of Santa Barbara on 101. I screwed it in and made it home. I fixed the stripped threads with an insert, with it in the car. I ran it that way for years with no further problems. This is when i learned about anti-seaze compound.

A properly installed Time-Sert will fix the problem.

As for never-sieze, Jet-Lube SS-30 99.9% pure Copper is the stuff to use. It is designed for electrical conductive connections of dissimilar metals. I use it and love it! It will also help ex studs last damn near forever!

I had a stripped plug hole in a 75 2.0.
I put an insert in with the engine in the car.
I drove it for another 50,000 and sold it that way. I would bet its still working fine.
Just have an insert installed and forget about it.

It could have been worse. I saw a guy trying to get from Mystic, CT to Boston, MA in a Citroen 2CV that had stripped 1 (of 2) of the spark plug holes. I don't know how, or even if, he made it, but those things were barely highway capable in top condition. I can't imagine driving one on less than 1/2 the power.

Got home last night and the plug was loose again. I'm going to pull it out and try to inspect the threads, then try to properly torque it down if they look ok.

Can I install a timesert while the motor is in the car? It seems like I'd have to remove the engine tin at least. What about all the metal shavings? Does covering the tap in grease actually work?

Check out this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntiy8L97Nco


Some thick grease on there should catch all the threads. Kits are kinda expensive (on Amazon). I'd be willing to split the cost with you since it'd be handy for me to have. By my measurements, you'll need the 16.8mm length inserts.

EDIT: Len says 15mm insert are correct.

Wow, what a cool video!

At $140 I think I will try to make use of the threads that are still there as much as I can before giving up and installing the timesert.

Tempted to pull the engine to fix a few oil leaks and other things........ That always ends up being a bigger project than I expected.

You want the 15mm length inserts. The 17mm will protrude into the chamber.

This is extremely important. Be sure that the shoulder of the insert fits into the relief counterbore that you cut after tapping (and make sure that you cut the counterbore all the way down til the top row of cutters makes contact with the sparkplug washer surface all the way around, 360*).
Over the past few years the QC on the inserts has not been what it used to be and the shoulder is to large for the counterbore. If the shoulder won't fit in the counterbore the top of the insert will stick out of the head and the plug will tighten against it. The next time you try to remove that plug there is a high likey hood that it will pull the insert out with the plug and make a mess of the threads in the head. Then you are screwed!

Make damn sure you use never seize on the plugs and before installing the Time-Sert into the head apply a few drops of oil to the inside of the insert and outside as well.

Cool video, but how does the insert "know" when to stop so that it is flush with the seat surface?

I have done the exhaust stud inserts before (and still have to tool from 20 yrs ago), but never a SP hole.

That looks a little scary to try in the car IMO.
Since it is difficult enough just to remove the engine tin, that looks like a engine removal job to me...

Stu

What if you hook up a shop vac backwards to blow air, and rotated the motor till the exhaust valve is open, then put the shop vac on the tail pipe. That with some grease should help keep chips out I think.

Stu, TimeSerts have a lip or edge along the top. That's what the counterbore cutting does. So the insert stops once the counterbore seats into the head material. You can't go too far.

Bad news...

Any idea what caused this? Plug backed out and beat the heck out of the threads, or did the threads fail first?

I don't know what came first but you still want to pull that engine. I see at least one crack beginning, near 4:00 in the picture, plus a bunch of material missing farther down the hole. This head may need more than just an insert if too much of the wall of the existing hole is missing.

After countless heat cycles and plugs removed and installed (many without anti-seize more than likely) the threads have deteriorated Heat also makes them brittle. Add to that the fact that the threads closest to the chamber will corrode over time as a result of carbon wicking up through them. The carbon will bond to the spark plug, and does a little damage each time it is removed and eventually makes a mess, like this. The first thread (the one closest to the chamber) gets it the worst and ofcourse it is drawn through every thread above it when the plug is removed. This is a major contributor to thread damage.

A Time-Sert will probably work okay if installed properly.

I've been harping on it for years, and I'll do it again here. A quality Copper based never-seize (Jet-Lube SS-30) is essential and will prevent this sort of problem as long as the threads are not already damaged.

"if installed properly" hmm, what are the chances I'll actually do that if I do it myself, with the engine in the car...

Did you mention what cylinder this was on, and I missed it? 2 or 4 wouldn't be bad to do in the car. 1 or 3 might be troublesome.

I'll buy the TimeSert kit, you buy the plane ticket....

#1

Don't do it Jeff! I tried that a while back. A couple of months later it went back in the car and the damn thing still leaked like a pig!

That's an ugly hole. Take Mark up on his offer to offset the cost of the timesert setup.

How's Austin treating you?

Gint, we're doing ok in Austin.

I guess my concern is that if there are chunks of metal separating from the head, the only way to see the full extent of the damage is to pull the head off and look inside. Putting a timesert in might just make the problem harder to fix later... Still deciding what to do.

The spark plug out and the engine running should have blown out any debris in the cylinder. I say put some anti-sieze on the plug and screw it in. Count the revolutions of the plug and compare to a good cylinder. Snug it down and drive it. The plug blowing out again will not do too much damage and then you will know if you have to add an insert to the threads. I've done the same thing to Type 1 engines without any trouble.

If you don't get back in and drive it you risk the car being stuck to jack stands for years to come.

That'd be the first time I've ever seen that. A thread insert is gonna solve your problem and you can get back on the road.

Mike's advice would probably work as well. But if it does blow later and take out the existing threads, you have nothing to guide the TimeSert tap into place.

Unfortunately the threads are too far gone for that. Mark is right, there are just enough threads (barely) now to draw the Time-Sert tap in. Ruin the last threads and the plug bore must be drilled before the tap will run through it.

Even now the damage is severe enough that it is likely the tap will run slightly crooked, making the counterbore operation more critical to ensure both a square surface for the compression washer to seal against, and to ensure that the insert sits at least slightly below the washer surface.

My opinion is; insert it now or park it til you can.

I still have the 14x1.25 Heli-coil repair kit for the spark plug hole I used to fix mine.
Did it with the engine in the car.
It is an old school one that is extra long. The newer ones are shorter and much tougher to do the hole with the tin in place.
I see you have a couple thousand posts so You can borrow it if you want.

You will need to buy an insert as the kit has none. Those are cheap.

Let me know
Click to view attachment

A heli-coil will work fine. In some ways they have an advantage over the Time-Sert in that there are no concerns about the shoulder of the time-sert protruding above the washer surface. Just make sure the top wire end is a half round down so it has the strength of the top thread in the head to keep it from pulling loose when the plug is tightened and also make sure your intake valve is closed and the exhaust valve is open a little bit so you can blow the tang out after it is broken off.

If you have 2.0 heads the long pre-winder may be a bit of a hassle to get in and manipulate. If you have a 1.7 or 1.8 it won't be as bad. If you can find an old head to practice on it will be a big help.

I just read these words from the Cap'n in this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...amp;hl=timesert

"Installing Time Serts in 914 heads while they're installed on the engine is a no-no. Because of the design of both the tap and the installation tool, you're gonna foul the valves and/or seats, especially on the 1.7/1.8/2.0(bus) heads. Not good, as we say.
Along with the tap, you'll need the installer and the seat cutter. "

So, does the head need to come off or not? And since this is #1, is there any hope of doing this with the engine in the car, and the sheet metal in place? If I need to remove the engine I might as well pull the head off to ensure the job is done right - I could even bring the head somewhere and have the insert professionally installed.

I'll be sure to pick up a can of this stuff. I remember reading years ago that antisieze was bad for spark plugs, but it sounds like SS-30 gets around the problems of the traditional silver colored stuff.

Thanks for this and the tip about the 15mm thread length Timeserts!

The Captain is right. But isn't this a 2.0 914? Maybe I missed that. The 1.7 & 1.8 can be Time-Serted if the valves are removed.

Yes, this is a 2.0 head.

FYI, my local Napa Auto Parts carries copper anti-seize, and based on the label I suspect it is very similar or identical to Jet-Lube SS-30.

It's Napa part number 765-2569.

I use the same Napa stuff. Seems like good quality stuff...

Ok, I just ordered a 14x1.25 timesert install kit (the regular one, not the long reach) and a 15mm insert from Amazon.

Jakeodoule - thanks for the offer on the helicoil kit, maybe I'll try that on the next cylinder if this doesn't go well.

Jeff, I can send you a buggered up 2.0 head to try it out on if you want. Let me know and I'll happily drop it in the mail Monday.

You should take him up on that. The process isn't rocket science, but there are important details that can be a bit tricky. At the least it would allow you to make sure your insert shoulder fits nicely into the counterbore without straining to see it through the sheetmetal opening.

I'll get flamed for this, but WTF.

I made emergency repairs at the track by using heavy grease on the tap to capture the cuttings.

Secondly, IF a few of the cuttings (very thin aluminum) happened to make their way into the cylinder, I figured that at combustion temperatures , the cuttings would be vaporized anyway. I didn't worry to much and never lost an engine to cuttings getting into the cylinder.

Flame away experts.

And I use silver anti-seize on spark plugs and have for years.

Today I installed the new Time-Sert and the car is back on the road.

The insert fit into the recess with no modification - see pic.

It took me an hour or two to install, but I work slowly (and I took lots of pics).

Yea!

Go Drive it!

NICE work!

Zach

Excellent! Glad to hear it!

--DD

Great !!! Looks real good too . You didn't mention if this was done with the head on or off.

Jack / Jaxdream

I installed the Time-Sert with the head on and the engine still in the car. I didn't even have to remove the sheet metal. The only thing I removed was the air cleaner housing.

The standard length install kit worked, but the installer tool handle was too short to use with the nice t-handle crossbar that comes with it. I had to use a ratchet and a 13mm socket to turn the end of the installer tool.

The extended reach tool might be a better choice for working on the 914 with the engine in the car. Hard to say without trying it.

Jeff,

What Time-sert kit did you buy and where did you get it. We have to do this fix. we have a plug that apparently wasnt tightened down last year when we fixed a stuck fuel injectector issue and now we have a plug that wont go in. luckily it is drivers side rear plug and easy to get to.

I believe the kit referred to here is the M14x1.25 Spark plug thread repair kit on Amazon:

Amazon M14x1.25 spark plug thread repair kit

The length of the insert you would need is 15mm. (inserts sold separately)


I know that those plugs were tightened.

Thanks uncle John!

must have been 36 years of previous owners was the cause.

This is exactly why I like this community so well .

Young man has found a problem with his 914

he tryes to figure out problem

asks for assistance here

Here come the troups, both Amateur and Pros. with how to do's and 1st

hand Experience

Young man listens and digests it all . sets out on a course to correct said

problem.

Problem solved

All because of a community of like minded people out for the common good

Be pround !!!!!!

Dave

You just want to go to Austin, Mark.


I can't speak to the copper stuff but I have used the silver stuff in A/C engines for years w/o any problems. I think the bad rap came from people using too much and not applying it carefully. You can't get it on the tip or it will arc across. It is conductive.

Glad the Time-Sert repair went well. The photo looks great. Textbook repair!

I also used the silver anti-seize for years with good results. I switched to the Copper based because of its superior conductivity, higher (much higher) temp resistance and it's resistance to turning pasty over time.

Aside from working great on plugs, it does an awesome job of protecting exhaust studs and nuts from corrosion. And it would probably work better on VW brake shoe adjusters than the silver-stuff we used for years because of it's anti-paste characteristics.

I bought Jet-Lube mil-spec anti-seize for a few years before discovering that NAPA was selling Copper based anti-seize it. I still use the Jet-Lube, but mainly because I buy it from a supplier who sells other supplies I use.

Jet-Lube has excellent customer service too. I've called them up many times (for business) and have been transferred to one of their engineers. The guys know their products and what they can and can't do. They've even shipped me samples, next day air, free of charge to try out. If they have a product that works I buy it just because of the support they provide.

Nice job.

I too have used Napa copper based for years. On spark plugs I don't use a lot. Just enough to create a film. Now on exhaust nuts, that's a different story.