I have to say I am a huge GTI fan after having an 86 16 valve. I was walking to work from parking the teener when I spied a brand new GTI (red !) I approached and low and behold there was a fine young man inside.
The car had R32 on the grill and no other emblems. We started talking and thats when it got good.
240 hp VR6 (3.2)
6 speed manual tran with overdrive
4 motion all wheel drive
4 wheel ABS
4 seats that looked Like Recaro's
http://www.autosite.com/Volkswagen/2004-Vo...swagen-R32.html
I would buy one of these in a heartbeat if I did not have a son leaving for college in August.
If I had it I could finally do my 3.2 or 3.6 conversion and not miss driving the 914 as much.

Neal

the seats are koenig. I looked at one at a dealer in NJ. they had it marked up $5k over invoice for "in demand adjustment". total ripoff. nice car but I would get an STi for the same price and a lot more performance. I have a '03 GTi VR6, not the most exciting car to drive and the suspension is as soft as a '78 grand marquis.

I know the STI is nice but it is just not appealing to me. The R32 is built on the Audi TT frame I was told and
I have always liked the looks and if you turbo this it makes at least as much HP or probably more.
besides you support Porsche when you buy a Volkswagon. One big happy family

Neal

VW and Porsche are not the same company, and never have been. They're not "one big happy family", and indeed, VW has a long history of screwing Porsche at every turn.

The R32 is built on the A4 platform, which is indeed shared by the TT, but also by all other midrange VWs, like the Golf, the Jetta, and the Beetle.

believe me I think the R32 is way nicer looking than the STi, but they're not even close to the same performance wise. the STi is nearly a full 2 seconds faster 0-60 than an R32. that is a huge margin for two cars that were made to compete in the same class.

R32 shares the all wheel drive system and some suspension pieces with the TT.

porsche and audi have no relationship as far as I know. VW owns audi, along with:

Seat (Spain)
Skoda (Czech)
Bentley (UK)
Lamborghini (Italy)
Bugatti (Italy)
Coswoth Technology (UK)


so you are more supporting skoda than porsche with a R32 purschase.

I looked hard an R32 last week at the dealer. They are damn nice cars. I'd take one over any japanese car out there. I don't buy Japanese cars, never will.

The R32 is noticably lower than a GTI, and with the AWD it'd be awesome. Put some snow tires on in the winter and have at the snow, unless it's too deep for the front spoiler.

I did not mean to suggest they were one company only to say they are tightly connected in the early years.
Read the "Ultimate history of Porsche" to see interwoven careers of many engineers that collabarated on
cars. Dr Porsches son in law Anton Piech and father of Ferdinand Piech who would become the Chairman of Volkswagen. The 356 relied mostly on Volkswagen mechanicals In reading the book it makes note that Porsche has remained fiercely independent. I still believe buying a VW is a support for Porsche if only in spirit and linage.
Neal

It's too bad the R32 is $30K plus dealer markup. It should be about $25K.

no markup here.

I wish I had OCR software, read the attached JPEG file

Neal, there have been VW and Porsche ties over the years, since the very beginning. Today, however, no money flows from VW to Porsche, and there have been several occassions when deals between VW and Porsche went very sour for Porsche, including the deal that spawned the very car this board is all about. This continues right up to the present day, with a joint deal done to develop what Porsche sells as the Cayenne, and VW sells as the Toureg. VW is now considering a very high line Toureg model that will so overlap the Cayenne in performance that Porsche is squawking.

The notion that buying a VW is somehow indirectly supporting Porsche is a fantasy. If anything, the opposite is true.

Personally, I don't care either way, as I'm not a strong supporter of any car company, I just buy cars I like. Porsche hasn't made a car in 30 years I have any interest in buying, and I've yet to see a single VW I didn't consider an appliance (and I've owned two).

You drive a hard bargin, I guess I am just a romantic, thanks for the discussion it was informative.

Neal

I used to think VW and porsche were part of the same family too... simply because Ferdinand Porsche designed the Beetle and early volkswagens for Hitler before the War... that is where they parted ways though... the gut Dr. went off to make his own dreams come true... making fast automobiles!

he definately kept the knowledge he gained from designing the beetle close at hand though...

[RANT]
I like Vws... but they ARE appliances. always were... the a/c beetle (and other a/c VWs) was the biggest appliance car ever... it simply has a cult-like following (and other a/c VWs)

of course you have to look long and hard to find a car that isn't just an appliance that was built in the last 15-20 years! I'm not saying there aren't cars I (or other people) don't love from the past 2 decades.. but it's not the same... new cars have their perks, but they don't have the personallity... anyone who even remotely thinks that cars of today stir the same kind of emotion in people... look at an old car that has a modern equivalent... an old mustang vs. a new mustang; a '67 stingray vs. a Z06... it's not the same, and in 30 years... the appliances will not be remembered, but you will still see the REAL cars... the cars that are works of fucking ART... and yes, you will still see aircooled beetles until the government figures out a way to put a nail in their coffin... I supposed some people get turned on by new cars... which is why we see so many "tricked out" *Yawn" Civics and other ricer mobiles...

[/RANT]

It has no turbo and its to heavy...sorry to say it!

It is a nice car.................

The price really isn't that bad when you consider what that a TT with hte same drive train (at least as close as they make it) is 12,000.00 more.

Biggest problem is that as soon as the Mark5 hits, all the Mark 4's will lose 3-5000.00 in value. ("Non-Current" bodystyles always do)

I've yet to see a real Mark5 GTI picture, but I think the Mark5 is going to be a good looking car witht he right trim................

They aren't marking them up around here though, and if I was serious about a new car, It would be in the top 3.

the mark up has probably faded away now. I saw the $5k bump right when they came out. I bet the dealers around here realized nobody was going to pay $36k for a golf. I think it would be a great car for an everyday cruiser, but the wrong car if you're looking for real performance.

IMHO, the new MK5 looks waaaaay to much like a Civic. VW has always been thought of as a leader in the "hot hatch" market, but I think they've pretty much blown that.

i like the "337" model of the GTI

The discussion between buying the 6cyl VW R32 vs the turbo 4cyl of either the Mitsubishi EVO VIII or the Subaru Sti are somewhat similar to the 914 conversion discussions here on this board, imho.

How many here would like a 3.2-liter 6 in their car anyway?

if you wait long enough on that r32, i am sure you will find a STEAL of a bargain. the same thing happened with the VR6 VW corrado( i sold vw/audi's to help me thru law school). i ended up buying a brand new '94 corrado in late '95 for $8,000 off original sticker. $18,000 for a brand new corrado, what a steal. but my wife made me sell it a couple of years ago so that we could get an expedition. and then she felt bad and let me buy my 914 then the 914 stopped running so then i bought a Saab 9-3 SE but that didn't satisfy me either. so i bought a new mercedes a couple of weeks ago
but i still miss my corrado..........

I frequently see low mileage 337s selling for around $18K. I'd rather have a vr6 GTI though and then do my own mods.

Hey, me too!!! Had a 93 Corrado Vr6... I really had fun in that car!

Marc-André

I need to have a car that ever time I look at it I like it, the WRX even though it is a hell of a machine does not fill this need, even my 914 sometimes gives me pause. I finally put my finger on it and it's too narrow
it needs flares. The R32 is low and wide and the tires fit the wells just right. I could look at it every day and say 'Damn, I like the way that car looks'. I love the way Andy's car looks from the rear with the flares and the reflector. I have had a couple Volkwagen models and the marque seems to be pretty bulletproof.It's all personal preference and that's why we are not all married or dating the same woman. No way I ever pay close to 30K for ANYTHING. Do you know what size of prefab shop with a lift would cost if you had the land, way less than an Sti or R32

Amen! For that reason I could never buy a EVO or WRX. For my next daily driver though I'm going to buy a hybrid if they open up the commuter lane to hybrids in CA. And I'll do that despite the fact that the Prius is so ugly. I guess the Civic hybrid doesn't look too bad.

it's unfortunate the STi looks as it does, but I could go beyond that for a $28k car that is quicker than most anything on the road. as for the EVO, looks too girly for me. the more I read about the STi and hear drivers opinions the more I want one. even more so now that the '05's are out in crystal grey.

If y'all don't mind me adding my opinion.
I had a VR6-GTI, I currently drive a WRX Turbo.
I am in the market for a new AWD, find the Audi's to be too much money, and have been looking at both the STI (2.5L four, 300 horse) and the Golf R-32 (3.2L six, 240 horse).
The Volkswagen is tight, refined, clean, quality. A "grown up" car. We're lucky to have it in the states. It's just a luxury car in a small package.
The STI is fast, and, um... fast. Not the same feeling at all. Not a great long-drive car, but it's, well, fast.
VW=3 door (hatchback), STI=4 door coupe.
Price is about the same for either ($ 32k) but no haggling with VW.

If I bought one today it would be the R32. Awaiting to see if the STI is more refined in '05 (will know very soon, and yes, I like the new silver).

Big difference to me, is turbo vs. naturally aspirated. You could do more with the VW if you boosted it (see HPA Motorsports who have brought this thing to 550 horsepower (and doubled the price). Not that I'd do such a thing, of course.

I really really hate the turbo lag in my current WRX. I'm older (that means better, right?) and would prefer the VW at this stage.

Both cars weigh about 3200 pounds (it's hard to beleive the golf could possible weigh that much!).

Neither care will keep good value or for very long - but the R32 is a limited run (I think 5000 units to the states) and being this is the last year of the MarkIV platform, I am going to guess they won't make anything close for a few more years, which makes the R32 collectable.

So, I keep looking, still deciding... I like the higher ground clearance in the Subie but man, that R32 is one fine automobile, sounds great, and just makes you feel like you're riding in a luxo-mobile. Man, I am getting old.

Mountain914, I feel your pain, I have a 86 Suzuki GSXR painted like a Ducati(RED !), White Brothers rear shock...etc. This bike is harsh and I used to love it and ride for hours. I want a new bike (civilized) for the reasons you outlined in your eloqent post. My 914 is great once I fall into it it's just a bitch to get out of. The R32 would fit my need for nimble,civilized and with space for my golf clubs and someday a wheelchair.
I am OLD !

Neal (just turned 49)

check out the STi BBS http://www.imprezawrxsti.com/postnuke/ a couple people have already taken delivery on their crystal grey STi's. I guess the new model is a little more civilized (updated climate control, radio, etc) but mechanically nearly the same car. I think the only real diff is 8" wheels and a change to the steering. one bonus is the trim is not pink anymore! still that shade, but more of a red.

I liked what I read about the R32 but for the money I'd rather have a used Audi S4 (B4) or maybe BMW M3 (E36) with a few mods. Classier ride and would smoke the stock VW.

With our effin' gas prices lately, I am seriously thinking about a VW TDI if we need to acquire a different car anytime soon...

a little sidesways. a rx8 was on display at costco. $25k base, $2600 markup, $4k navagation system option, other add ons and it balloned to nearly $36k. add in the sales tax here and it's the better part of $40k. i imagine the same for a "desireable vw". a navagation system . i already have one, it's called a thomas guide.

kevin

I really like navigation systems but $4K or even the usual $2k is obscene. They should be $500-1000.

they'll be standard someday, then I will get one. my GF's sister in japan has navigation/DVD on her small low model toyota.

I was looking at an RX-8 the other day too. Sat in it, and my head hit the roof. WTF? I'm 6'3, which is tall, but not that tall. To me, it's unacceptable for a car maker to make cars with so little head room. The saleman said that if you ordered it without the sunroof, there would be an extra inch or two of head room. I said no thanks, I've got a good quality German car (S4) with a sunroof, and I still have plenty of head room. Every German car I've owned has always had plenty of head and leg room. Asian cars are almost always too small for me.

I miss both of my Gti's. My first car was a grey market 1978 "golf GTI" and my second was a 1985 mars red GTI. They were great fun to drive and build up. I was never as proud as the first time I opened the hood of the '78 to show off the Oettinger valve cover at one of our local shows.

The 1985 car had a Techtonics 2020 in it and was full koni undernieth. That thing really scooted for it's day.

Someday if I every have some "fun money" lying around I really want to buy and restore a 1984 rabbit GTI. I still think those are so neat. It was my high school dream car. Gotta be a white one....

You guys should see Fergs new car! I think it is a 92 8v GTI. It's a time capsule - 6000 miles with the plastic still on the seats. Awesome....

I've got a 79 Gti for sale, if anybody wants it. Needs some rust work (surprise surprise) but other than that it's pretty cool. Recaro seats, round headlight grill, etc. $500 obo, and you have to pick it up. Comes with a tonne of parts!

I tried to say out of this thread as long as I could...

As the Subie and VW age, which will hold up better? I doubt the STI will require the same costs to keep it running. The last good GTI was on the A2 Platform. A R32 would be great, but I'd lease it or plan to trade it before it's 3 years old. VWs are great when new, but don't age well.


The guy that bought my car was pissed. Even after I told him that I didn't feel right selling it, he still insisted on buying it. After he replaced much of the steering, he was quoted another $2k in repairs. I really wanted to say "I told you so".

I'd buy an A1 GTi any day and would still like to build a project truck with GTi componants. For a low total costs driver, the Japanese cars are hard to beat. For now though... VW!

I pretty much agree with everyone's thoughts, more and more when I see a new car come out that excites me (R32, Rx8, STI ect) , I then think of what I can get used for the same dough, and most of the excitement I had for the new car goes away. 30k will get you into a boxster S, or if you are lucky a 993 .

I did buy a GTI, but mainly because it was a unreal find, 1992 6k orig miles, collector owned and cared for since new... I'm not really sure what I am going to do with it yet. (besides the drive home I have only clocked 100 miles )

I like the new GTI's vw's seem to be in that minority of new cars still made that have "soul" but agree with the reliabilty comments heard here. I have a neighbor that works at a local vw dealer, and hear about the quality (paint finish ect) of the new cars they get of the truck, and it reminds me of the days working at the ford dealership.

Ferg.

I have an '84 GTI (70k miles). The seats are great, they may force me to put something decent in the 914. Mine is basically stock except for a VW motorsports engine mount (Minimal vibration, but it shifts better and no driveline lash), HR sport springs (slightly lowered) and Tokico adjustable stocks.

It's not as refined as a newer car, but it's dirt cheap, handles great, barely weighs anything and is a blast to drive. Almost as much fun as my 914. It has enough negative camber up front that it barely understeers.

I'd love to do a 16V conversion on it....

I don't understand the complaints about VW reliability. I know many people newer cars that have had no issues at all. my friend just sold his '96 jetta with 116k miles. not a single problem with it ever. I sold him this car when it was 1.5 years old. mom has a '01 beetle, 60k miles on it not a single problem ever. I have a '03 GTi, no problems yet in 12k miles. of course there are always going to be lemons. my brother works at mercedes, he could talk to you all day long about the poor quality of those cars (at 2x-5x the price of a new VW)!

Since I've owned a GTI, 88 16v, I'll always have a softspot these cars. I also like the first sciroccos and the 16v sciroccos.

I keep my eyes open for 16vs from this era, great cars.

Since I've owned a GTI, 88 16v, I'll always have a softspot these cars. I also like the first sciroccos and the 16v sciroccos.

I keep my eyes open for 16vs from this era, great cars.

My Mom had a 97 Jetta - it was a horrible car. The 02 sensors would go out every 6-8 months and everytime I had to fight with the dealer when he accused my Mom of over reving the car (total BS). My bro bought a new beetle in 2000 that fell apart around him (the third brake light litterally fell out of the car while going down the road). One morning he went out to leave for work, went to put down the window, and it promptly fell into the door and shattered. My ex girlfrind bought a 2000 Jetta that was burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles. The dealer told her that was normal.
My A-1 went at least 170k on the original motor, and my A-2 was sold with 175 on the chasis. The only reason the A-2 got a new motor was for performance gains. Both of these cars spent a ton of time being beat up in solo I and II events. Had to replace clutches once in a while....

I loved my VW's, but I don't think they would be near the top of the food chain for a new car based on what I have seen in the recent past. Even the TT has had some electrical problems - and that car is a 2001 with less than 10k on it.

I wonder what happened? I would drive an 83/84 GTI or any year Scirocco before I would drive a Honda however.....

My '94 Jetta has been practically flawless - knock on wood. It has almost 140K miles now and the car has needed very little other than regular maintenance. The repair list is small:

thermostat
interior fan switch
cam position sensor (replacement of distributor)
sunroof cables

That cost less than $600 in repairs (I did it all myself) over 10 years. It would have probably cost $1200 getting all that done at a shop. I've also done all the regular maintenance myself except the 90k mile service and the timing belt swap.

I think VWs don't hold up as well as Hondas and Toyotas though when faced with deferred maintenance.

We had an 84 VW Diesel Jetta that just ran and ran and ran. In fact we gave it away to a family friend as a beater commuter car years ago and just last week it finally bit the dust -- head gasket or something blew causing some overheating and carnage. I am sure it had around 300K on it and still got 40+ mpg and ran fine till the very end.

We now have an 89 Cab sitting here which belonged to my sister-in-law. It has never had any work (except a clutch or two) but at 140K also runs and drives fine although it looks like hell.