so, if i understand this right, RedHat Linux just went to a yearly subscription model, ranging from $179 (Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS) to $2499 (Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS) PER YEAR ...

WTF???

so, now i have to pay $179 each year to use Linux as a desktop workstation?

this is nuts ...
Andy

Andy, I wish I knew what you are talking about. I can barely turn my computer on.

use mandrake linux!... same linux, and the updates will stay free...

Haven't heard that, but what the hell??? Isn't that the whole point of Linux, is that it's free?

One word..SUSE!

Whoops I should have read the post!
What I meant to say was XIMIAN

What? Those developers didn't want to continue developing their version of Linux for free?

Wow, I can't believe that

Many other flavors of Linux out there, some free, some not. No matter what version of Linux you choose at least you aren't giving MS any more $$$.

Andy,

I can wax eloquent on this -- but it's easy. They wanna make more money. They shot the box ("use Fedora if you are a home hobby type person") in order to drive people to the per-CPU licensing they are running on the RHEL line of distros. And on that line, they charge what the upper end of the market will bear.

There are those of us aiming to fix it (keep an eye on this space)

kim.

http://www.SpecifixInc.com

Yeah, I can't believe our resident German doesn't use SuSE.

IMHO Mandrake is for babies and besides that it's French (sorry. no offense intended). Men use Debian, real men use Slack, and alpha-males use Gentoo. I've been using Linux for 10 years and just can't come up with a reason to use RH. I've just never liked it.

I highly recommend Debian for server duties. It's very easy to maintain with apt-get doing all the upgrade work for you. I have two Debian servers that have not had a keyboard or monitor plugged into them for 5 years and they are to-the-day updated. Debian is quick to provide security updates (which are few), and bottom line it's just a good platform. Whiners say it's hard to use, but they are wrong.

-Ben M.

Mandrake was the first one I got to install correctly and everything work... it was much easier... it's all I have experience with besides RH on Linux... now things are easier, but I haven't found a use in going to anything else... I am just a casual user though

I use windows. What does that make me?

haha. yeah, I thought the only reason Linux was so good is because it was free and open source, kinda the communist operating system. If I understand RedHat sells linux in stores with a book, and the bundle is like 50 bucks, but they dont have any copyright stuff prohibiting duplication of a cd. For a price tag of 179, wouldnt it be cheaper to go with XP? If its about money, then XP Pro is going for like a hundred and change on ebay for a 'new pc' version.

I looked it up, the SOFTWARE appears to be still free, like ALL linux, it's the RH SUPPORT... which I think they have always charged for... the software and all the updates will still be free, but if you want documentation or to talk to someone... you will need to have paid...

I could be wrong though...

nope, here's what i got from them:

[...]
Red Hat Linux 9 has now reached end-of-life for errata maintenance.
This means that as of May 1, 2004
we will not be producing new security, bugfix, or enhancement updates for this product.

[...]
We'd like to take this opportunity to remind you of the options
available to you for migrating your Red Hat Linux implementations.

[...]
For businesses, governments, or those looking for a stable Linux that
provides updates and support for up to 5 years: try Red Hat Enterprise
Linux
(that's $2499 per year!)

[...]
Red Hat Desktop provides a high-quality, full-featured client system
suitable for coporate deployments requiring secure, manageable and
stable desktop solution.
(that's $179 per year!)

[...]
Use the Red Hat Linux Migration Resource Center to find the Red Hat
solution best suited for your needs:
http://www.redhat.com/solutions/migration/rhl/



that's it! it's still open source, and i never had problems PAYING for a copy, but a yearly subscription?

that's just plain nuts ...
Andy

Redhat is kind of a bit of crap.

We use it where I work for all of our servers and while it serves it's purpose we aren't really doing very much.

My previous and the majority of my *NIX experience is with FreeBSD and Solaris which I believe are extremely good and well supported Operating Systems.

At the moment we do pay for our subscriptions to redhat through the redhat network (rhn.redhat.com). We do this for the update ability, Redhat also is in no way shape or form free - if you want to use redhat legally you HAVE to pay for it. Otherwise, it's just like pirating M$ software or any other software for that matter. They made this move a couple of months ago. They stopped support and development of RH 9, I think they may have even stopped their workstation product entirely but I need to check that. They are concentrating on making money via their Server product and using Fedora as a "FREE" product in the spirit of the original linux project. It is not officially supported and I don't think it gets the automatic updates via the rhn web site and up2date program that the supported products get.

Redhat is crap though, make no mistake - while it does provide a *NIX OS for the masses it does not provide an OS with any reasonable vendor support. I've had to call them on a number of occasions and never have I been able to get a technician who was more intelligent that I was on the operating system and I only have about 6 months experience with the OS myself (granted I do have near a decade experience in *NIX flavor Os's).

Use Fedora and the newsgroups for support and you'll be okay if it's personal use. If you're running a business though and using Redhat as the basis of that business you're taking a substantial risk in my opinion.

Also it is worthy to note that if you're using Redhat to save money on the cost of the OS then you're using Redhat for the wrong reasons entirely. The choice of an operating system should not be the essential cost of the software itself off the shelf but the cost of operating that operating system in a productive manner. Choose an operating system for your business based on what is going to provide the most productive work environment. The most productive work environment is what is going to make you the most money - not saving money on the purchase of an operating system.

Just my two cents...


Also, note that Redhat is *NOT* open source - LINUX is open source - Redhat is a proprietary version of Linux with source code written and distributed by a private company. While there is a lot of debate in the linux community regarding Redhat's claim here there is no disputing the fact that redhat is a private company who makes money off of THEIR version of Linux. If you were to distribute Redhat without paying them what they ask they claim that they have copyrighted protected code in their distribution that if not removed requires payment to them to distribute.

A victim?


Andrew

i never had problems PAYING for a copy, but a yearly subscription?

Andy

Damn, that is some crap... how can you be forced to pay for something that's open-source... I musta read it wrong. I thought it was only for business sites would have to pay!

I'd change Linux versions.. there are plenty of free ones...

$179/year is more than windows!

i use it to run a BBS for a bunch of car-freaks. it's called 914world.com ...
check it out on of these days, it's pretty cool!
if you like 914s that is.

Andy

A virus/worm distribution center. (jk)

Linux/Unix is very useful in a lot of ways.

It basically boils down to three things for me:
1) platform flexibility
2) security
3) automation

Linux/Unix is fundamentally more secure than Windows. I'm not just talking about code quality - I'm talking about the fundamental structure of the opperation enviroment. For example, a non-administrative user can do no harm to a Linux system. Can't delete anything important, can't modify anything critical, can't launch a program that will do harm, etc. A unix/Linux system can be fully administered remotely in a secure manner. All functions/tasks can be utilized with or without a graphical interface (that's why my servers don't have keyboards/monitors). Unix/Linux provide better resource management when doing multiple tasks. (You wouldn't dare burn a CD and compress audio/video at the same time on a Windows pc, but with Linux this can be done). Linux/Unix have automation tools built in that Windows can not even dream of. Any program's output can be turned into another program's input (and get reformatted/massaged along the way if needed). Basically, any procedure you can do manually, you can teach the machine to do by it's self.

Personal computer/Windows culture is one of user inputs guiding the computer along every step of the way. How many times have you "clicked ok to continue"? See what I mean?

The mainframe/mini-computer/Unix/Linux culture is based on the premise that the user should have the tools to teach the computer what to do and from that point on the process is autonomous. The user has better things to do than sit in front of the box all day moving a mouse around, clicking and drooling his way through work the computer should be doing on it's own.

Don't get me wrong. I think XP is the best product MS has ever produced. It's quite stable (compared to everything else they've ever done) and while not nearly secure enough, it's an improvement over past products. It's easier to use than Linux (for most people), and there is a large support community. It truley is a better platform for the average person. If Linux had a consisten interface, and the ease of use of windows then I'd recommend it to the average user because it's more secure and powerful, but until then you should stick with Windows (unless you want a server).

-Ben M.

annual dues?

Read my post again...

Redhat IS NOT open source. Linux is open source, the kernel that is, the tools available for use on it but Redhat is distributing a version of Linux that their programmers have customized with source code that they own.

It's that source code that they are claiming is theirs NOT LINUX in it's entirety nor are they claiming that their product does not benefit from the open source efforts. They skim off the good stuff of the open source crowd via Fedora which I don't think is right at all...

Now, bear in mind - I'm on your side but according to their new business model you should be using Fedora.

Beyond the redhat offerings you could also consider some of the more genuinely open source projects out there like FreeBSD which is near second to none in being a secuire operating system.

I wonder what the results of a security scan of the 914club web server would result?

As a disclaimer, I dont know crap about computers. I can use my winamp, graphics and cad programs, and make it do funny stuff sometimes when I freeze it up, but I do not claim to be a computer nerd. This is just whats been explained to me by computer nerds at a computer nerd school, and I am totally open to me screwing up the terminology.

So yeah, how 'bout them 'puters?

Sorry, Redhat just really pisses me off - we went through this a couple of months ago right after we purchased a ton of software from them.

I hate redhat.

IMHO Debian is now the free linux of choice. Fedora is pretty nice, but it's future is a little uncertain. RedHat is okay if you want to pay for it. You are paying for them investing a bunch of time in QA and making sure that the packages they are shipping have the correct dependencies encoded into them, and also that it is a supportable product. If you don't care about that, don't pay for it.

One nice thing that debian has is a better system for automated updates that doesn't rely on you having a subscription. This helps you keep on top of the constant flow of bugs that are found in various open source packages.

FreeBSD is also a good choice, but it's not Linux, which means it does not have the same product momentum that linux has. It will run linux binaries, which will work nearly all the time; most likely until you really need it to work, and then you'll find the bug. Oracle for linux was reported as running faster on FreeBSD than it does on Linux at one stage, but if you are paying for oracle, you might as well run it on a supported platform so they don't tell you to get lost when it breaks. If you are using C or C++ developed open source components, FreeBSD may well be a very good choice, but if you have Java in the mix it may be worth sticking with linux. FreeBSD shares debian's advantage in that it has a very elegant way of updating your components when you need to.

BTW, "Real men" use whatever is necessary to get the job done in the best possible way given the circumstances, and recognise that the appropriate solution may vary.



I'll shut up now. Sponsor me :-) http://www.aidslifecycle.org/2113

That is correct, Sir.

Well stated, and 100% correct.

-Ben M.


ps - I want an Elise. Bad. Really really bad.

i don't know, try it!

security in that sense was (and IS) not really an issue for us.
we don't store any valuable information on this box (besides your email addy that we're going to sell for big $$$, har har ) ...

so, i figure, the worst we can expect would be a DOS attack from the 911 crowd ...
Andy

scan in progress - expect a PM soon...

TIN FOIL HAT is still self-adorned, and free, but for the meager materials list...

Think about that.. when you point out that you are :

"all ab unch ofg eeks!"



Miles

MILES FOR PRES!

shank you sir ...

attention 914club members, we have a "dead man talking" ...


well helloooooo miles
Andy

Sheesh. I don't get no respect. I scanned and sent a report the very day the server first went live. <_<

-Ben M.

shank you sir

There. Thank you. Now I feel validated.

...hey wait a minute... "shank" me? Scratch that. Now I feel 'violated'.

I'll keep my scans to myself and you keep your shank to yourself and we'll all be happy.

-Ben M.

ps - I really really want an Elise.

ok, what about

sank you sir

???
Andy

It's all good. I was just kidding around (too).

-Ben M.

Whatabunchageeks!


Generally excellent discussion here today, but that's the wisest statement I've seen in a while.

I've known this redhat thing was coming for a little while now. I don't hate redhat, nor is it my favorite. My first dabble into Linux was slackware. As much as I'd like to get back to my "roots" it probably would make more sense to chose something else. Based on what I know at this point without researching it a lot more I agree that Debian or FreeBSD might very well be good choices for this BBS. When the new drives are installed and we get some other updates running, I will be evaluating and discussing with the other admins a new OS for the club site. There is enough on the plate right now that needs to be done first. And it's that busy time of year.


Wanna let me in on the secret there Kim?


My first thought was who fuch'n cares? But Actually I do. Since I'm primarily responsible these days for admining the OS at the very least, I'd like to see what you come up with. But Andy is correct and he finally got that point across to me some time back. If this box crashed tomorrow I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. My life, my job, my family doesn't really depend on it. I guess that's not entirely true, I would lose some sleep getting the thing back up and running if it crashed. But you get the general idea.

Now, having said all of that, I will not participate in, and I would encourage everyone else on the board not to discuss vulnerabilities with our favorite time killer (914world.com) directly on the board. There could very well be enough people (it really only takes one ) that would love to "play around" after reading about said issues. Know what I mean? It's to everyone's benefit IMHO. None of this is intended to mean that we don't care or want to hear concerns in this regard. On the contrary, if you do have concerns by all means please don't hesitate to PM or email any one of the admins.


Cheers gang!

hi andy,

use fedora instead of the redhat 9.0 distro . it's a spin off from the latest redhat version .

-> http://fedora.redhat.com/

many greetings from berlin

benno

I have used RedHat as a desktop since before they went on the stock exchange. I have had very little trouble with and have enjoyed their products over the years. I am going with SuSE which IBM has assisted in major developments . I have not had any need for a server until this point but will probably build a one into a multi-machine system.

Fedora, if I remember correctly, is RedHad code but without their support. I believe they will not produce any more packages except under their service package charges. I am with Andy, why pay for something that you may not need. RedHat no longer fits my needs. Their business model appears to focus on the corporate workstations, networks, etc. with the small guy being separated from their activities.

Andy, I have a fairly current Ximian (desktop) product you can have if you need it. This item could be bundled with any Linux product you may purchase.

These are my thoughts.

Steve Hurt

That's exactly the point - while in most instances security of a server is deemed appropriate to protect the contents from being stolen - what we have here is of little relative value (though that could be argued). The point of security on this server is to keep you from having to deal with the results of some script kiddie screwing up the box and taking it down.

I'll pm you the results of yesterday's scans.

me 2.

But I want my 914 finished more.

An annual fee???
Even good ole Bill G. doesn't have the balls for that

cheers,

Jeroen

SHHH... he may hear of this and try it!!!

As others have said:

http://www.FreeBSD.org

Uh - Microsoft have a wide variety of fees available that you can pay for their server products and for support.

RedHat Advanced Server and Enterprise server are designed as servers for companies that need to be able to tell their shareholders that their technology uptime risk is mitigated with a support contract. Microsoft provides the same "services".

Microsoft's pay support has actually, however, been shown to be more expensive than the Psychic Friends Hotline, and in the study was not any more effective at solving the problem at hand.

Hi,
I love the OT posts about Linux, seeing as how I work for SUSE, now a division of Novell. Many of you guys actually know what you are talking about!
Open Source of course refers to the way the product is developed, NOT to the price of it. Of course every distro is supposed to offer a free version according to the GPL (General Public License).
RHAT is smart since they are getting a huge community to develop their enterprise products under the auspices of "Fedora". It's better than having overseas labor!
You can download a free copy of SUSE Professional 9.1 (now using the 2.6 Kernel BTW) from the SUSE website, but if you want ISO's and a manual go buy it for about $70 street price. If you want security updates (you can go get these with Pro too), bug fixes, free version updates, support, certification with various application and hardware vendors, buy the Enterprise product with what Novell now calls Annual Upgrade Protection.

Nope, but I bet he's VERY happy about it. It makes a single payment for a license for XP look cheap.

-Rusty
XP/2000/Solaris user

Solaris Rocks.

I miss it.

Yeah, more or less.



I don't (daily).