Just curious what the opinions are on the different bars out there. I have used and liked the Tarret bar but there are many other bars out there. Smart bar looks really nice as well. What are your thoughts?

I have had good luck with weltmeister swaybars from Automotion. Simple and they were about $300 for a full kit the last time I bought one. I've used their 19mm solid front bar and their 21mm solid front bar.

Be sure and call and mention you are a PCA member and they will give you around %10 off.

Smart Racing Products swaybars are probably still the best of breed, but are spendy, around double the Weltmeister. I heard a rumor recently that they may be getting out of the swaybar biz or perhaps already did.

Tarret stuff is also very nice and the price point is in between Welt & SRP.

The Smart Racing sway bar is a nice unit, but one needs to figure out which level of sway bar to install, depending upon autoxing or track.

In my car the heaver bar was way to heavy and the understeer issue wasn't helped until we put in a 23mm.

Of course I have to say that even the 23mm might not be correct with the new differential installed in the 901. Just have to test it and see.

Changes, changes, changes....

It is my understanding the a good bar for an AX 914 really isn't that big. I had my Tarret close to full soft and it still felt a bit much at times. However, this is one of the areas of the better bars. You have that ease of adjustability.

I will need to purchase a new bar in the next year while I build my G prepared 914 and may use my current 914 for some testing. I only want to spend the money once so this is why all inout and advice is very welcome .

I want every advantage if I am going to build and take this car to Nationals.

We have run a 22 weltmeister for years.(ran 19 for 3 or 4 years back in the early 90s)With current setup- we run it about one inch in from full loose on the tight twisties - and run it slightly over 2 inches from full loose on grippy fast concrete.
BTW-Was told by Fordahl that Weltmeister was absolute junk.I'm pretty sure they were running a TRG bar (23). Everytime I looked at their car it was set up towards the loose end of adjustment.Upgrade to TRG has been on the "want" list, but never got that far.We did test without a front bar-Tested from 200 coilovers on front all the way to 700s -in 50 lb increments.Conclusion-our cars have to have a front sway bar due to our poor roll center.How heavy will your car be in GP? JJackson

Car will be 1800lbs TRG? How would that compare to the SRP? So a 23mm hollow bar could be near perfect for what I want?

Thinking I like the look of this

Really don't have a comparison between the two.Both high end bars.Personnaly I' ve never had any luck communicating with anybody at Smart Racing-Lowly 914 and a redneck to boot-1800 lb teener sounds like a whole lot of fun.We've been running a 1900 lb car for over 10 years now.Look forward to seeing ya at nationals.
BTW-I know a lot of 19mm bar owners disagree.They need to show up at nationals also.22 solid or 23 hollow is our choice.
JJackson

(still cleaning the drool out of my keyboard from your lid pix)

I'm likely not even keeping those lids They are too nice and actually something that should go on a GT.

Yeah, I'm kinda thinking that TRG looks very nice. I like the Tarret I posted a picture of. Then of course there is Jonathan's bar at GPR I believe to be a 23mm Tarret made bar with GPR on it. I always like buying from GPR when I have the chance. Jonathan and Eric (PMB) are my two favorite vendors. Though with my 6 I gave plenty of money to everyone

If all goes as planned you will see me in 2012

I don't have any experience with the Tarret bar.Running their front monoballs with no issues.Price is right.JJackson
Hope everything goes as planned!

I have run 22-welts in 3 different cars.
it was a big step up to the Smart 27mm bar

this picture was taken the first day of running the new bar:

Brant,

I know our styles are different but I am sure you understand the concept. For an 1800 lb AX car, if it were you, would you purchase a hollow bar with the effective rate of 19mm 22mm or higher?

I'd actually defer to JP or Randal (or someone for an Autox only car)
my experience is really on the track and I like the 27 over the 22.
but I'm not sure that translates to an autox venue exactly.

the pricey bars are more easily adjustable.... but you can do things to a welt to really tune them in if you want to save a few dollars. I drilled zerks into my welt bushings and kep the bushings greased. Plus during install you can fine tune the install to get the bushings absolutely free.
(you need to install the bar alone, and be able to rotate it without drag... if there is any drag from the two bushings then bend the sheetmetal to align the sides better and reduce the drag.)

sorry I'm not sure of the best size for autox only... if also on the track I'd go 22minimum depending on budget

brant

I am rather good at installing the bars to have near 0 drag. Spent hours getting my old bar near perfect .

My budget on this bar is fairly high since I am closing on another sale this year. This one makes three this year and I have two more possible clients coming up. Real estate money is now play money since I have my newish job .

I think you have to look at the entire setup to determine size bar that will work best. What have you planned for spring rates, use rear bar, what kind of dampers, what size/weight wheels front and rear, what size/type/compound are you using. What kind of differntial? What is your target weight distribution front to rear with driver?

Honestly I have seen few well setup national level AX cars. When I had mine I was focused on budget all around local car. Now that I have had more time with Boxster and a few other AX cars I have some ideas for 914s but it really depends on direction you go with the car in terms of overall setup for the class. I wouldnt build the car from the swaybar however.

The more I look at it a GP car might be real fun to build and actually be competitive

That's why I'm doing it

A 22mm (or effective) front AR bar is all you need. I ran one at around half hard.....which is not a bad target to shoot for.

IMO, a competitive GP car needs all the stuff that an FP or XP car runs.

That's what I'm thinking too

At least the tarrett bar pictured has the rod end mounted in double shear.
I hate designs where the rod end attaches to the side of the arm.
I make a 32mm hollow bar setup with an effective rate even higher than the 27mm Smart bar.
The best size bar for a particular application is totally dependent on the rest of the suspension setup, in addition to engine torque, LSD, etc.

Wow Chris, your bar looks sharp.

Okay, since you know about this stuff fairly well, 21 or 22mm solid torsion bars, with 225lb rear springs. 1800lb car with about 120- 140hp at the wheels. Maybe a TB diff. running cantilevers

What size bar for autocross?

25mm

Last night I took another close look at all the major players: Tarrett, Smart Racing, and The Racer's Group. Weltmeister I'm already pretty familiar with.
All of them have characteristics I'm not fond of.

Weltmeister - at the low end of the group, however they are adequate for street, DE and casual competition cars.
I've had problems with parts missing or faulty when purchased new.
Double adjustable drop links are an upgrade, available separately.
The clamping style of the arms sucks.

Tarrett - uses the same square ends (as Weltmeister) which I don't care for in a product that has to transfer significant torque loads. They wear out too easily.
At least the machined aluminum arm is a more precise fit over the square and has less of a tendency to wear out vs. the Weltmeister arm.
I don't like the side mounting of the drop links against the arms
Their RSR bar is a bit pricey, and is also only available in 22mm diameter as far as I could tell. At least the drop links are mounted in double shear.

Smart Racing - bring $$$$$$$, available in a series of overlapping rates.

TRG - (don't go to their website btw, its been hacked) I had one for a customer's project.
Again, side mounting of the drop links on the arms.
The plug welds holding the hex ends weren't ground smooth before nickel plating the bar, which made it impossible to insert through the bushings.
We had to grind through the plating to make it work.
I don't like the hex ends much more than square ends.

The bars I use are splined. To date I've only made 914 kits using one size but it would be easy enough to offer them in a variety of different rates using 2 diameters and several wall thicknesses.

Sorry for the mini-hijack, but as far as I know nobody makes a "quality" adjustable rear bar for the 914 currently. Apparently Weltmeister improved the quality of their hardware in recent years but their fundamental design and geometry seems inherently flawed.

Chris, have you considered making or made rear bars before?

So can you make a 25mm bar for me? Your stuff looks great.

I may have a line on a nice Smart Bar but if not and you can make that bar

Of course there is anlways Jonathan at GPR

I've been running a Tarett bar for 7-8 years with no problems....that must be due to my superior installation skills.

Jon: If you have a AR bar that is too stiff it will not soften enough under all circumstances....the reverse is also true. Adjustability goes out the window when an ARbar is set full hard (for instance) & you're still loose.

I'll repeat myself. When your car's ballance is all set up and ready to go, the ideal position for the AR bar to arive at is half hard. That is at maximum adjustability in either direction.......get it? Ariving at that takes some doing....not the least of which is picking the right parts then comes experimentation with spring rates & all.

Yes I can.

You do that a lot JP.
Must be a sign of your advancing age.

Well JP, If what Chris is suggesting is a 25mm bar he is actually just suggesting the same thing as a Tarret bar. Judging from the quality of everything else Chris does I would say his bar should be as good or better for the same reasons he posted. Perhaps you think I don't know how to set up a car?

Chris, thank you, I will keep this in mind.

The Tarett bar is a hollow 25 mm making it an effective 22mm.
No, I don't think you know how to set up a car. Show me different.
If you had a lick of sense you'd buy this and either turn it in to what you want or go faster.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=125282

You've already seen what I did on my 6 and I do believe that car was well set up. So tell me that I didn't set that up right? I believe it was within .5 seconds of Britain's car at the shootout while being 2200lbs and a 2.4l that wasn't dialed in.

If I had a lick of sense I would buy that? Yeah, money has nothing to do with that now does it.

You'll spend consideralby more on than 16500 on your GP car.

Lotsa folks come *close* to Brit on a given day....but seldom get a cigar.

So what direction did you go-Used smart racing bar,Tarret, or Racer Chris 25 .If Tangerine is building 25 (thinking seriously about it) all of quoted likes and dislikes make since.Read another post of Smart Racing going out.Is that previously mentioned used bar still available?One of the few parts (that we were told was junk) that we have not tested multiple options.Only ran 19's and 22's and never a higher end alternative.Sure want to test and draw our own conclusions.Just like a new driver on the golf course-we justify our purchase-but after a few rounds, we start to look at it with real opinions.Often garaged or sold-never to be seen again-just like to know instead of told.Jjackson

So long as it isn't the really big bar I am going to use the used Smart bar

I don't have it yet but I will soon I'll post picks of the install of everything as soon as I can:)

That bar is supposed to take future bar purchases/shopping out of the equation.Some "experts" really suck at what they do.Let us know how the bar works.JJackson

Yeah, I am going to start with 22mm Tbars and this sway. A few race engineers (with a nice pedigree) have said this will work well for tuning. I know many "experts" will say different. I think you and I think the same way

One thing that has not really been addressed is the droplinks, other than that they should be adjustable.

I really have personal experience with only the WeltMeister, Tarrett, and SmartRacing. I'm using Smart bars on the 911 but Tarrett drop links because they use 10mm hardware and everybody else thinks 8mm is adequate.

I don't. I had an 8mm Heim joint fail in compression with resultant loss of car. It was nicely neutral with a middlesize bar up front (we'd call it tiny now, this was a long time ago...) balancing a rear bar. When the front bar goes away at 100mph in the Esses at Riverside leaving you only the rear bar, it's a big handful...

Yes, I think the driver (not me) probably brought on the failure by putting a wheel off (shock load) but - like that's never happened before...

Hear me now and believe me later - there are big loads on the droplink and tension is _not_ the likely failure mode.

I think 10mm is probably adequate.

Thanks for the tip

Just for reference I was just as Streets of Willow with some fairly well used BFG R1's mounted up. I was pushing a bit with this combo and still didn't feel totally planted in the rear:

Front:
19mm bar set 3/4 hard
21mm torsion bars
max camber/caster with stock parts (roughly 1.5/5)
stock rubber (but in very good shape)

Rear:
225lb 8" springs
No rear bar
"hard" urethane bushings custom fit

I'm planning on stepping up to 275 rear springs when I can find them used as I'm getting ready to mount up my first set *ever* of new DOT-R's.

I'm also in the process of setting up my suspension. After looking at all the bars on the market I believe the Bar from Tangarine is the best one by far. It would be my choice, but since I'm on a tight budget I'm starting withthe Weltmiester I have, but will be upgrading the endlinks with a set from Tangarine. Most of the front running 914's I've seen in HSR are running huge front bars.

This will be my first time really setting up a 914 through testing and tuning to find the right balance for a fast road course car. It took several years and many iterations to get my Honda just right.


This will be my starting setup:

205/50-15 toyo R888's, Bilstein Sports F/R

Front
18.9 mm torsions bars
22 mm front sway bar (weltmeister)
2.5 deg camber

Rear

200 lb linear rate springs
2.0 deg camber

If the car has too much push I will start increasing the rear spring rate until she feels neutral.