I was talking with a 914 owner about engines and the cost-benefit of a Subaru swap. This person is looking to build a street-legal car that will serve for track duty. But AFAIK, PCA has restrictions on non-Porsche engine participation.

So, since I know most of you all are far more familiar with the regulations and options than I am, I'm looking for information on what sorts of restrictions does PCA place on non-Porsche engine swaps? What other options for track days are available (nationally, but SF Bay Area specifically)? Is building a non-PCA-legal car a shot in the foot? Or is PCA somewhat irrelevant because of availability of other options?

What are your thoughts here? And I'm looking specifically at track days, and not autocrosses, but I'm interested in learning about AX info as well.

It depends on the local region.
For DE, ORPCA lets any car run that has wheels (and is safe).
AX also.... but we have a class for NP (non Porsche). With a Subi motor a 914 falls into there.
I'd imagine some regions don't allow NPs due to a limited number of openings.

Ditto to what JP said
it depends on the region
you'd have to call the region the customer currently wants to participate in
(or if you have a crystal ball, call the region he might move to in a few years also)

out in colorado its porsche engines
if a DE event doesn't sell out (rare)... they will open up vacant slots to non porsche engined cars in the last 10 or so days before an event.

I'm guessing small regions that need to sell more slots would allow a suby teener
bigger regions that are turning people away probably not.

If the customer was shut out of PCA then it would come down to other sanctioning bodies in the area... I think you guys have a lot of NASA and even some POC Drivers ed events out there....

I am autocross co-chair in GGR, the region you are talking about.

I run a Porsche with a VW motor.

There is not currently a rule against it in GGR, but this is going to be a subject of a lot of debate at the upcoming DEC. Please attend and show your support for non-Porsche engines if you don't want it to be disallowed in the future.

Thanks for the tip Chris. Hopefully it'll fit in my schedule.

you have always been able to AX your Porsche chassis with a non-Porsche motor with GGR.
As far as track goes, you can run a 914 with a Subie with GGR, just will not be able to accumulate points for year end awards....you run in the "fun" classification.
We currently have someone that has done a Subie swap into his old track 914, and he is quite welcome to run with us.
We have had Corvettes, BMWs, Miatas, and a few others run with us recently.

As far as what Chris is referring to, a group of us have no problems with any Porsche running with us, no matter the motor. Since GGR is a Porsche club, just as with the Porsche Parade rules, a car running for trophies should be a Porsche based Chassis, motor and tranny.
Otherwise, if you want a trophy for your mantel with a conversion car then you should run with SCCA, UFO, AAS etc....

Dan, I understand your opinion of what a Porsche is, but I disagree.

I also want to make it clear for this discussion that this is what you want to change the rules to be, not what they currently are.

only your interpretation of our current rules Chris.
That is why I want it stated in language that is plain and simple...

our current language:
3.0
(g) U.S. Delivered Cars: Cars are defined as U.S. model specification Porsches that were normally delivered to the U.S. public for general road use through the manufacturer's authorized sales outlets.

I maintain that a 912 was not delivered with a type1 motor with a VW serial number on it.

The 2.5L Subaru turbo is a good swap to replace the 4 cyl Porsche engine. The Subi is shorter, narrower and weighs only 25 lbs. more than the 4 cyl Porsche. I bought a complete 2007 WRX Turbo with 10,000 miles for $3,300. The adapter from Kennedy engineering adapts the engine to the 901 transaxle. Putting a radiator up front is not too big a job. The bottom line is power and torque for a reasonable cost. I currently have 430 HP and unbelievable torque from that little engine. Later this year I plan to install a larger turbo and larger injectors which will give me an additional 120 HP.
My car is strictly a track car. I run SCCA races in Improved Touring (ITE). I also drive with GGR in DE, but can not run in the PCA races because of the Subie engine. GGR has not had a problem with other cars than Porsche running the DE events. In addition, I drive track days with Hooked on Driving, Trackmasters, Northern California Racing Club, and may run some with NASA in the future.
If you want a state of the art reliable engine, the Subie is the way to go.
Let me know if you have any questions. I will be glad to answer them.Click to view attachment

I haven't seen your car run, but it must just tear.

I think you have the record for a 901 transmission handling huge power. I didn't think a 901 would hold up.

hey Ron, did you get your brake issues sorted out?

going to make it down to Buttonwillow the end of the month?

Thanks for asking. I hope the brakes are taken care of. I bought a full set of used Boxter calipers, front and rear caliper adapters from Clint at Rebel Racing, R-4 brake pads from Porterfield, and ordered brake rotors and aluminum hats, for all corners, from Colman Racing in Michigan. I had to increase the diameter of the rotors to 12.25 inches to be able to have room for the hats between the hubs and calipers. The rotors and hats should be here Friday. If everything fits (all my measurements are correct) I plan to sort it out at Sears next Thursday with HoD. I will have to skip Buttonwillow this year as I will be at Laguna for the SCCA race the same week-end as Buttonwillow. See you at the track!

John Seidell and I installed a billet center bearing carrier. I installed a pump, oil cooler and oil lines to directly feed oil the ring and pinion and gear sets at two additional points. I believe the way to keep it together is to keep it cool and lubricated. There is an incredible amount of torque from the turbo. I start in 2nd gear and drive the whole Thunderhill in only 4th & 5th never needing any lower gear. Thus far, even with pushing the car pretty hard, the trans temp never gets over 190 degrees.

your rules seem to say a porsche is as delivered... ie no suby motors
I'm confused now because your rules don't allow suby-teeners yet you say that its fine... I suppose your just filling slots?

Well thats where it gets a bit complicated. If you read it that way, you aren't allowing any modifications.

The rules don't say what that actually means. Where are we going to draw the line? We will have to come up with an answer for next year's rules.

That language is from the classification portion of our rules. If you can't class your car you can't run for points....
It doesn't say you can't run, just not for points or awards, just like if you show up in a Corvette or BMW, you can't be classed in our points system, but you can run "FUN" class.

I dont see GGR rules as confusing at all. If you want to run in series for points you must have a Porsche with a Porsche serial number motor.

You are welcome to run events in fun category and not be involved in points.

Perhaps there is enough interest to open an exhibition class where you can run Porsches with bastard power plants? That way 912's with type 1 VW motors, 914's with V8s or Subies could all run together. I'd call it the "misfit toys" group.

Yes, but we're running by the GGR rule book. Not Grant's rule book he just made up right now.

The current rulebook doesn't say squat about motors, serial numbers or anything like that.

As a PCA member since 1976, I think is important for the club to identify with the brand. This keeps the club together and attracts active members to participate in club events. I wasn't too upset when my BMW and Ferrari buddies called my 911 a hair dryer especially when my hair dryer could beat them on the track. Keep the Porsche Club Porsche, but don't lose sight of progress. Where did all the 356's go? It is important to know what else is out there.

I like the SCCA rules for ITE- IMPROVED TOURING E:

These are the TOTAL Rules (Directly from the SCCA rule book):

[b]"The only IT rules that apply to ITE are those losted below:
1. Any tub chassis production vehicle running with DOT tires.
2. Preparation rules: International sedans may modify the floor pan/rocker panel sections.
3. Cars must meet or exceed the Showroom Stock or IT safety requirements of the current General Competition Regulations."

That are ALL the rules. It's kind of RUN WHAT YA BRUNG.

Grant just seems to have the interpretation of our current rules as do the majority of PCA GGR members that have weighed in on this subject.


I think the direct quote that I pasted directly from our rule book pretty much sums it up.

"(g) U.S. Delivered Cars: Cars are defined as U.S. model specification Porsches that were normally delivered to the U.S. public for general road use through the manufacturer's authorized sales outlets."
No 914s were delivered to the US with Subie motors and no 912s were delivered with
Type1 serial numbered motors to the US, pretty simple for most of us.

But I guess we will have to make a bit more obvious for some

Dan, it is not at all clear from those rules because that could apply to any part on the car, not just the engine.

You could interpret that rule just as equally to refer to the seats as you are using it to refer to the engine.

I think this is a ridiculous distinction that we can replace the brakes with aftermarket units from brembo or wilwood that were never available on a porsche, we can replace the interior trim, seats, hoods, wheels, axles, shocks, springs, swaybars, fuel cells, and just about everything else on the car with units that were never available from the Porsche factory, but then all of a sudden there is some weighty and important distinction in the engine case.

I don't think it's obvious at all, I think it's silly.

If I were driving a Car that was running a type1 VW motor, I might think it was silly too!

I think most would agree that the main bits of any make car are the chassis, motor, and trans.

Ok, you can run for points but any conversion motor would get an automatic 500 modification points. Is that better?

If it came down to not running for points or taking a 500 point hit, I'd take the 500 point hit.




Can you really look at this though and say "that's not a porsche"?

Porsche chassis, yes.
Porsche motor, no.

Sorry we just aren't going to agree on this.

Chris, I have been part of PCA since 1969 as a family membership going to ax's with my dad in his super 90 356, then his 356 SC, then in his 914, 911 and then my 4 Porsches. Never did Porsche club consider VW type 1 , V8 or subie powered cars as car that could be classed with other Porsches for ax series points. Heck 914 owners had a tough time convincing diehard 911 guys 914 was a true Porsche back in the 70s. Its not me thats making up rules. I challenge you to show up to a PCA parade event with openly disclosed non Porsche motor powered car to see how far you get with your very weak case. Sort of scary you are in ax chairman position advocating for your personal intersts but fortunately GGR has plenty of old guard that will protect our marquee club values. You're just a bunch of empty chatter at this point. This argument isn't going anywhere. No one in PCA wants hybrid bastard cars classed with other pure Porsche cars.

You have plenty of other options where you can run your frakencrap cars for a trophy. Just go that route and stop wasting your time.

Your non Porsche powered car isn't any different than this 944. Other than fact the 944 is cool! Both are non Porsche powered cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuVJc3nZqzU...be_gdata_player

If your argument were valid a non Porsche chassis with Porsche engine and transmission in a non Porsche should be given equal consideration to run for points in PCA. You know AMC hornet/gremlin used 924 engine. I'd love to show up to a PCA event in a turbo 924 powered Gremlin and run against 912s , 911s , 914s for points.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what the DEC comes up with for next year.

I'm not in any position to comment... But I'm going to anyway. While i see a family resemblance to putting a type I in a 912, (Piech/Porsche - family, right?) you could also argue that a subie has porsche roots as does the Harley Vrod. Neither were ever placed in a chassis designed by Porsche. The type I does have history with Porsche, heavily modified in early chassis'.

However, since the beginning of time, rules have been created to limit or exclude others that are non comforting to the Parti (ideology) set by the rule makers.

I think you may have a goliath moment here. It is, after all, a Porsche club.

I am one of the cheif driving instructors here in san diego. we allow non POrsche powered cars to run in X class where we also allow BMW, corvette, Lotus...
as you can see by my screeen name, I started out with a non porsche powered car, a bastard by PCA standards. as I became competitive, I had to deside what venue I woujld compete in. I chose PCA and built a car to comply with the rules of teh club in which I wanted to race.
when I have run with GGR, I comply with their classes. when I run in SCCA, I have to comply with that.
there is allways one person who wants to change the rules to suit their fancy...like the girl who litigates to go to the all boys school, why?

Generally refered to as I Stock, Prepared, Mod, whatever.

PCA Mission
The Porsche has no equal, and since 1955, the Porsche Club of America has catered to the particular needs and interests of the Porsche owner. Our main mission is to heighten the Porsche owning and driving experience, which we accomplish by meeting a number of objectives:

To promote the highest standards of courtesy and safety on the roads.
To enjoy and share good will and fellowship engendered by owning a Porsche.
To maintain the highest standards of operation and performance of the marque.
To establish mutually beneficial relationships with the Porsche factory, dealers and other service sources.
To exchange ideas with other Porsche Clubs throughout the world.
To establish mutually cooperative relationships with other sports car clubs.

...no where do I read acceptting and promoting of non Porsche power plants as part of PCA mission? If fact acceptance of VW and subie power plants is in direct conflict with "To maintain the highest standards of operation and performance of the marque".

But I'm ready just in case!

Grant, that's a purdy piece o' sculpture there!!!

How about a 911 or a 914 with a porsche motor with many upgraded internals? Overbored cylinders, JE pistons, longer cranks, hollow titanium valves, webber carbs isntead of fuel injection, MSD ignition system instead of Bosch, etc...

Would this still qualify to run in PCA as a Porsche motor?

Yes this is allowed and handled through both PCA national and most local orgs. Porsche motor upgrades have always been part of PCA culture and history.

However Chevy V8s, VW type 1s, Subarus, rotory have not been part of that heritage at least in having ability to formally compete for points directly with Porsche powered cars. I think we have a misguided individual in place of "authority" that just needs to be mentored by club elders to correct path.