A boxster motor sounds really interesting. I know there is a bit of work necessary to get this done correctly.
These are the main concerns I'm pondering:

1. Transmission - Does Kennedy or someone else make an adapter that will allow a 901/914 to work?
2. Transmission - If no to 1, what other choices are there?
3. Mods - trailing arms need to be moved? or trimmed?
4. Exhaust- custom made?

thanks for pondering, too.

-sean

Sean, understand I'm having a wierd day, but let's find a 914 tub with good body panels and a rolled Boxster. Graft the 914 panels onto the sawzalled Boxster! We can add some rust for authenticity. Waiter, bring me another

Definitely want to get a pre-2000 motor if you want to avoid the hassle of adapting E-gas. Getting OBD II happy should be interesting, and is way outta my league. But I suppose it's possible and someone here would know how.

If 201-hp isn't enough, you could always add a supercharger later, but maybe a 3.4-liter 1999 (also pre E-gas) Carrera motor with 296 hp would be an even better option while you're at it...

It should be said that the new cars have LARGE twin radiators, so cooling with a 914 might be tricky, though you'd have it in a better place (if center-mounted) and the V8 guys seem to make it work. Also, no oil tank to worry about.

Doubtful that someone is doing an adaptor plate, but I've heard there's a guy on the East Coast/NJ area who's running a 3.2 liter air-cooled motor with a Boxster S six-speed transmission... will try to track down more info on that...

All that said, the torque curve (pretty peaky) of the basic and plentiful 2.5 986 motor would be a great match for a non-flared 914. While unique, I expect this would be an expensive trip down Discovery Lane.

pete

pete

There is a guy in NJ, Scott, that has the Red & White 914 racecar that was in European Car magazine 1/2 a year ago.

Part of the email he sent to me about his Audi 1.8t - powered 914:

>
I used a 5-speed front wheel-drive tranny out of a 96 A6. It will bolt to the 1.8T. It is noted as an 012, however the older ones, which this is, have smaller bearings on the diff., so the Quaiffe won't slip in. The newer ones it will. A plus side to this A6 version is that it has tripods instead of CV's. You could weld the tripods to the 914 axles eliminating the need for custom axles. I use the stock 914 outer CV's with success. I just replace them once a year. I would replace the 5-spd with the Boxster 6-spd if I had the funds.
I THINK it will bolt up to the 1.8T.
I also think the 944 rear end might also (random thought passing through). The Boxster shift linkage & cables bolt directly to the Audi tranny/corporate sharing. That was difficult info to come by as the Porsche people don't know what the Audi people are doing and visa versa. <


I know, Seanery is asking about the Boxster engine, but he also asked about the Boxster transmission, and I knew NJ-Scott had mentioned something about that in the email to me.

Hope this info is somewhat useful.

Brad has posted about this before. I think his conclusion was that the rear suspension pickup points would have to be relocated.

Have you guys seen all the negative press about 986&996 motors?
Since these motors are wet sumped they are having oil starvation problems on the track.
Porsche still advertises these cars as dry sumped with an internal oil tank.
In the old days Porsche advertised that you could buy a car and take it straight to the track.
Now they are saying if you blow your motor on the track they will not cover it under the warranty.
You might also notice that new factory 911 race cars are using a 964 case with water cooled heads.
This case is used in 964 and 993 air cooled 911's.

If its just a street car you won't have any problems.
But I wouldn't use a boxster or 996 motor on the track.
There's also a write up on this in the latest edition of Excellence.

Steve

Its true that the 996/986 motors are not in the same class as the original air cooled motors, but they are damn good. There are countless 996/986 running around tracks all over the world with no problems at all.

Porsched Motorsport did come out with a motor kit for 996 the was basically a modified valve cover that returned extra oil to the sump better.

Also, early motors had problems with sleeves shifting and out of round specs on some oil seal surfaces that caused leaks but must of that has been addressed since mid 1998.

I have driven many of these cars and the motors are sweet. Just think about it, a multi-valve water cooled flat 6. You could only find that in a 962 a few years back.

Every motor has its problems. Just have to know how to handle them. Like Jake with the TIV's, you just have to know what you are doing. Also, these water cooled motors are still newborns compared to the aircooled motors. In 20 years, we will be lamenting that they don't build 'em like the old 996 any more...

dr

The Boxster motor swap would only make sense if you could install the motor and the tranny as a unit.

there becomes the problem...the motors seem to be plentiful and relatively inexpensive. The transmission, on the other hand, is hard to find and pricey.

I wonder why that is. I assume all the motors come out of wrecked cars. They should all trannies too, right?

i would assume it's from Boxster owners pulling old little engines to replace them with newer, bigger, better ones ...

the issue is not so much with 986/996 engines and track use. it is with track tires - especially guys who go run slicks.

you can run a Boxster or 996 as delivered on the track with no problem. when you start deviating from the as-delivered specs - by increasing the lateral g's beyond what the original scavenge system was designed for - there can be issues. not for nothing is Porsche adamant that you use only their approved tires on the car...

A local 914 guy picked up an early motor and transmission for $3500, everything included.

Currently the car, motor and transmission are in a shop in the Bay Area getting put together, they wanted to use the factory FI, so the struggling point was the ECU and it's lockouts for anti-theft. Supposedly a new ECU was found in Germany which bypasses this. ($1000)

the engine ECU check its VIN against the instrument cluster VIN; if you're parting a car, get those two ECU's together ...

Check out the latest issue of Excellence.
If you install the oil scavenge baffle it voids the warranty.
The GT-2 and GT-3 are both running a 964 case with water cooled heads.
They are not running the 986/996 case or engine.
All factory six race cars including the 962 are running a dry sump engine.
My only advice is to learn from someone elses mistakes.
Find someone who has already done it so you know what your up against.
Especially when it comes to money and time.
I am very happy with my stock air cooled Euro 3.2 six with DME.
It was very simple and straight forward to install with no hassles.
I have over 230 reliable hp.
With the weight of the 914 and the 901 gearing I can blow away pretty much any new non turbo 911 or boxster to 140 mph.
The only issue I have right now is I need to upgrade the front brakes from my current 911S alloy calipers to Brembos.
I also have a 993 cabriolet.
Its brakes are awesome and its not nearly as fast as my 914.

Steve

got it. read it.

the sump baffle is not necessary for the street tires approved for the car.
you want to go racing on race tires, that's a different story.

all those other cars have different spec tires and are capable of generating higher lateral g forces. they have an oiling system commensurate with their intended use and performance.

you put a 986/996 engine in a 914, you're way past worrying about warranty issues ...

I agree and for the street you would end up with a newer engine with newer wiring, injection etc.
And since its porsche you won't have as many issues with porsche club events.
I know there's pro's and cons.
With the water cooled engines you will need to install a radiator up front.
With the air cooled engines you will need an oil tank and maybe a front oil cooler depending on the engine.
I love the 914 but hassle wise you can pick up a boxster for less than 20k and when the motor dies just put in a bigger 996 engine???
Lots of pro's and con's.
My 993 cabriolet top is screwed up and its going to cost me $1600.00 to fix it.
My 914 top is 30 years old and is no big deal to take off and throw in the trunk.
I wish Porsche would build another 914 like car.
The closest thing they have is the GT1 and I don't have an extra $450k to spend right now....

Steve

Not to go too far away from this threads subject, but I have a couple of questions for you STEVE....




How reliable is the 911 motor? While I've always wanted a 911 for Mon-Fri, I've also always heard that 911s are VERY expensive to maintain. So, is the 911 engine in your 914 really reliable?

and...



When will you then?

i'm not Steve but i do own 3 911-powered Porsche vehicles (2 914.6 and a 911...)

stock 911's have a reputation for being bulletproof. 2,7's - especially CA cars - had a hard time for a variety of reasons and are typically less desirable unless you have a really good reason for wanting one. anything in the 3,0 911SC through 964 range (i.e. - the engines typically considered desirable for /6 conversions and in the used 911's usually considered for purchase nowadays...) are darned near indestructable.

maintenance - you're buying 9-15 qt oil instead of 4. the air and oil filters are a little more expensive. you're buying 6 spark plugs and (when the time comes) wires. the rotor and cap are a little more. valve adjustment gaskets are $22 the set of 4.

if you just drop them off at the dealer (assuming you can find a dealer interested in touching an aircooled car any more ...) with a blank check and say "fix whatever needs it" it'll be expensive ... if you can do most of your work yourself they can be quite reasonable...

they are expensive to rebuild when they need it - the good news is that they can go a long while between rebuilds. but expect a rebuild to set you back no less than $7500 before you start adding in the options and ALA's... (which sounds a lot, and it is, but go price a Jake T-IV before deciding it's outrageous...)

If you drop your 4 banger off at a $125/hr. Bay Area shop it will be expensive too. Just like with a 914, if you can do the maintenance yourself you'll save a ton.

Figure that if a 914 costs $500-$1000/year to maintain over the long run a 911 will cost $1000-1500 over the long run. By long run I mean some years you change the oil but down the road you pop for a top end or full rebuild.

To add to what Rich said, every 911 motor seems to have it's achilles heel except maybe the early 2L to 2.4L motors. Generally they are bulletproof and the bottom ends easily go 200K+ miles. The top ends though usually needs a $3-4K freshening up between 80-120K miles. The reason the 911 is still extremely successful in endurance racing is because the dry sump motors rarely break.

The 2.7L was know for the studs pulling through the magnesium case. The later CA 2.7s were worse because of the reactor manifolds. The 3.0L SC motor seems to be the most bulletproof. Their achilles heel is broken head studs. The 3.2L are also pretty bomb-proof but prematurely worn valve guides are common on a small percentage of those motors. I'm not sure about the 3.6L motors but prematurely worn valve guides and carbon build up is causing a lot of 96+ ODBII 993s to fail smog even though the cars run fine.

Besides conversion costs, the problem I see for a 914 owner putting a 911 engine in their car is that most likely we are getting used engines in the 60-120K mile range. One of these "low mileage" 3.2s goes for $7K. If you aren't lucky and get a dud you could be faced with another $3-8K to rebuild the engine. A worst case scenario conversion could cost $20K. It makes a brand new engine from Jake look reasonable. :-)

this is one of the reasons why a water cooled porsche motor interests me. A lot of these are wrecked, or they are upgraded, so most are probably under 70k, hopefully way under.

I agree that it would be pretty cool especially if you could make it work with the stock boxster 6 speed tranny since jumping to a 915 is another $5000 can of worms.

Scott,

I agree with what's been posted about 911 engines.
And I will never have the money to buy a 911 GT1
Unless I start playing the lottery and actually win.
If you do the work yourself its just the cost of valve cover gaskets, oil and filter.
Except for adjusting the valves and replacing the gaskets its no diferent than the maintenance on my Toyota.
Well except maybe twice the amount of oil.
But the Toyota's spark plugs cost twice as much as my Bosch plugs.
If you install a 993 3.6 you no longer have to adjust the valves and or change the gaskets.
The hassle with the 3.6 is the additional work to install and its a bitch to get to the lower plugs.
I think a 911 is more expensive to maintain than a 914-6 conversion.
There is more to go wrong with a 911's body and electricals than a 914-6.
What I mean by body issues is with a targa or cabriolet versus our simple removeable top.
You also have power steering, electric windows, locks etc. to maintain.

My own experience with 911 engine reliability dates back to 1986.
Back in 1986 I installed a 1974 2.7 liter six that had a top end overhaul.
I put 75,000 drunken abusive miles on this motor and was hitting the rev limiter every weekend.
This motor never broke down on me.
Four years ago I could tell the head studs were starting to come loose.
This is a common problem with 2.7's and stock head studs.
The cost of overhauling a 2.7 was more expensive than getting another engine from a wrecking yard.
So four years ago I bought a Euro 3.2 with 80k miles on it for $5500.00.
This motor puts out 231 hp with stock exhaust and catalytic converter.
I'm much older now (43) so I don't drink and drive anymore but I still beat the crap out of my cars.
So far I have driven this car for four years with no problems.
I am also more happy with the additional power and DME fuel injection versus the webers on the 2.7.
The 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 are known to go well over 200k miles.
As mentioned there is some rare cases of 3.2's with valve guide wear.
Mine has almost new compression and no valve guide issues.
The advantage of the 3.2 and newer is you get the hydraulic chain tensioners.
But this is easy to add to a 3.0.
I would not recommend a 2.7 unless the engine has already been overhauled correctly with raceware head studs and other mods.
I feel the 3.2 is the best motor since its the least amount of hassle to put in.
You don't have to cut the 914-6 aftermarket engine tin to make it fit.
With the 3.6 you have to cut up the tin and its a bitch to get to the lower 6 spark plugs during maintenance.

The advantage of a boxster or 996 motor is obvious.
The motor will have all the latest updates and be much newer with less miles.
All we need is someone to make a kit and figure out all the problems.
I bought one of the first quick six mounts from MSDS back in 86.
We have come along way since then.
I now run a Richard Johnson mount so I can use my factory heat exchangers.

If someone figures out all the issues with installing a 986/996 motor in there car I might try that next instead of overhauling my motor or putting in a 993 engine.
For my next project it will be AC in my car.
This will allow me to to drive my car all year round!!
The heaters already come in handy.

Steve

no power anything in my '71 911E. factory Targa top comes off and stows in the trunk just like the 914. (well - is has a vinyl cover and collapsable frame, but it is a simple mechanical latch and it does fit in the trunk. my new rigid fiberglass top stows conveniently behind the seats ...)

anyway - you just have to go back in time until you find a car that's as simple as you want. for a lot of people, the crossover point on reliability vs power vs simplicity vs creature comforts was the 911SC. the early cars didn't even have power brakes...

my '71 is pretty easy to uprate for additional power, at least as long as i stay in 915 territory.

(i'm planning to stay 'period correct' for my 911RS 'homage' and will probably do a 2,8 -- although a 3,0SC would be easier and as powerful...)

hey guys,

just keep in mind that only the boxster S has the 6 speed tranny, and that unit is sourced directly from the 996 carrera. So the 6 speed tranny may be more $$$ than the more usual 5 speed out of the regular boxster S. Unless you can figure out how to make the carrera unit work.

dr

IIRC, the 5 speed is sourced from the VW Passat FWD.

[QUOTE=ArtechnikA,May 31 2004, 03:19 AM] [QUOTE=Steve,May 30 2004, 09:53 PM] There is more to go wrong with a 911's body and electricals than a 914-6.
What I mean by body issues is with a targa or cabriolet versus our simple removeable top.
You also have power steering, electric windows, locks etc. to maintain. [/QUOTE]
no power anything in my '71 911E. factory Targa top comes off and stows in the trunk just like the 914. (well - is has a vinyl cover and collapsable frame, but it is a simple mechanical latch and it does fit in the trunk. my new rigid fiberglass top stows conveniently behind the seats ...)

Sorry!
I do not have much experience with early 911's or Targas besides there motors.
I was basing the Targa on the manuals I have.
I own a 993 cabriolet that I just had to spend $2k on to get the top repaired and aligned.
I am also not looking forward to replacing it someday because it wore out or the rear plastic window fogged up.
I wish they made a real Targa out of the 993.
I like the 3.6 with no valve adjustments and the 928 like rear end.
Even though its no big deal to adjust the valves.

I am curious on how the boxster conversion will work.
With the 901 or 915/916 you can use a shift rod.
With either boxster tranny you will most likely have to use cables.
Is it possible to use the whole shifting mechanism including the Boxster shifter?
Has anyone looked at the hassles of heating and airconditioning?
AC would not be any harder than the four but heating would be a hassle.
I know of V8 conversions where they stuck a heater core between the air intake and the hood.

Steve

Humm, the Boxster Motor Debate.

Let me think last time this came up:

The motor will fit, but its way tight.
The tranny won't fit. You'd need to open up the rear and move things out I think it was a inch on each side.
You have to run a boxster Dash.

And, in the end, all of these would be able to be overcame with hard work, grit, determination, and dumb luck.

I think someone is going to do one for the novelty of it. If you could pick up a boxster Motor/Tranny/Dash for 2500-3000 I think it would be a hard one to beat. And boxster prices are falling all the time.

does this help anybody?

looks damn familiar

dr

why do you need to run a boxster dash?

the ecu checks for the proper code in the dash.

I guess each motor is keyed with the dash panel, part of the immobilizer deterent system.

dr

would be cool to get rid of all the electrics and slap a set of triple throat webers on it.

that or tek III with fuel & spark on it.

just FYI,

here is a 5 speed boxster tranny, $500.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...2480877851&rd=1

dr

Why not just keep Boxster engine in the Boxster and make it more like a 914? Lots of sub$20K 2.5 liter Boxsters out there.

There are some great looking Boxster race cars starting to make their way to the tracks.

Boxster Racecar Photos

I guess you didn't read my post



I'd bypass this stuff and run an aftermarket FI, the Megasquirt would be fine for this application to keep costs down.

Honestly, I read that part! I was just spouting the conventional wisdom!

I think a 914 with a boxster plant megasquirted would be damned cool. A super charged Megasquirted plant would be even cooler!

Kennedy just responded.
They have no parts to adapt a 901/914 to a modern 996/986 engine.

the reserve on the Boxster 5 speed trans listed above is $1750.

That tranny is nothing more than an 012. Same as a front trak Passat or Audi A4. You can pick those up for way less than 1k. I have a Passat 012 in my garage that has a blown diff and it look the same bolt hole for bolt hole. I am sure the gears are different though.

I think this is the second post I've ever added to the BBS, so excuse my ignorance and lack or response if you reply to this, but I now have the Boxster-S motor and the 6 speed Trani. I bought the 3.2 at the WWC swap meet. It has 1,500 miles on it, and it came complete with brain and injection... $4k out the door. The trani I got from Brad. Now I need to make it all fit into the 14. Britain has been forwarding many threads onto me so I can read up on all of your concerns. It should be a fun install. Since I'm not active on the BBS you will probably have to get your pictures from Brad, who will be helping me with this install.

Welcome welcome welcome!!!
Make sure you keep us posted. Brad can show you how to get pics up here real easy.

Should be one helluva fun project!

Hey Jason,

About time you showed up here

cheers,

Jeroen

Kennedy Eng.will make any adapter you want if you will pay for it.
I can imagine you could send them a pencil rubbing of the engine block hole pattern and they could take it from there...................

SteveSr

I believe he intends to use the Boxster engine AND tranny.

Thanks for piping in Jason..

Its is plain STUPID not to utilize a Boxster S 6 speed in this scenerio. Cable shifted.. hyd clutch.. the S box is based on the 996 box (as previously stated) TANK. BUllet proof.. come to mind.

You do HAVE to move the inside control arm ears. NO way around this. Jason's car is already nicely flared so moving the mounting points is only labor intensive. We will do it and will not be that big of an issue.

As far as longivity..... who cares.. you can buy engines with NO mileage on them for under 5k. I cant build a 4cyl engine for under 5k. You can buy them new from Porsche for under 8k with warranty. The oiling issue.. havent seen it ONE time. I attend track events upwards of 3 times a month with Boxsters running. We have 8-10 Boxster owners of have been tracking their 97/98 cars since they where new (upwards of 15 events a year) with NO issues. Dont believe the hype until you speak to an actual owner who has lost one.


B

just curious - are any of those cars on slicks yet ?

the word i've heard is that until you're generating the kind of sustained lateral g forces that require slicks the OEM pickup can manage.

i note that Brey-Krause has a deep-pan oil sump kit for 996, Boxster, and Boxster S that's been deemed legal in PCA Club Race in Stock and Prepared classes. that should take away some of the additional worry for people who -are- running slicks ...

i have yet to see any Boxster cars running slicks locally; there may be some - i don't make all the events ...

I bid on a Boxster transmission on eBay, lost the bid, I knew I should have bid a little more at the last minute, I totally forgot about the auction after getting out bid early this morning.

both of these sold today:

Boxster transmission= $184

Boxster engine=$610

I agree with Brad, when you can buy a very low mileage engine and transmission, the Boxster engine/transmission swap looks much more attractive than buying an older engine/transmission that might be on it's last leg and very expensive to rebuild.

Sure you can build a V8 cheaper and have more power, but not everyone wants or needs that kind of conversion.

Once Brad nails down the Boxster conversion, I'm sure a tiptronic version will be just around the corner

now you have rich.

not sure how much boxster is underneath that bodywork though. Maybe he even has a Raby type IV.

dr

This is just my stupid opinion, but if I were doing a boxter conversion and had to move the rear suspension, I'd move it all the way to the dumpster. Install a 993, 928, or boxter rear suspension. Our rear suspension is a weak-link. If you're going to the trouble, upgrade it with something better.

Now before anybody says anything about "the rules", remember, you're throwing the rules out the window by moving the pickup points anyway.

-Ben M.

and you've seen that car actually run ?
doesn't look like he's expecting much downforce from that huge wing in clear air. the struts are teeny and -- okay - maybe they're carbon fiber tube, and maybe they're not just pop-rivited to the rear bodywork like it looks like...

and -maybe- he's done all the structural engineering to verify that that structure is strong enough, and every other rear wing is horribly over-engineered -- but it looks to me like it'd either snap off in a stiff breeze (to say nothing of a spin at 100 mph...) or rip that rear panel right off.

i wonder how many 986/996 cars have pro-actively installed a Brey-Krause-type deep sump before track use ...

Ben,

I measured for the Boxster rear suspension. It is something we are considering. They can be had CHEAP also. My concern is the wheel offset required to run it all under his current fender situation. The Boxster is WIDE.


B