I have a line on an original 914-6. It is running a '79 3.0 engine, has racing seats, roll cage (removable, I think). The front suspension is modified, with 944 Turbo front brakes and with the original 914 front brakes moved aft. The paint is not the original color. The seller wants to price it like an original /6, which I guess it is.
How can I estimate the value of this thing with respect to a well done 914/4-6 conversion? This car is so far from original that I can't see putting it back. It is like trying to sell George Washington's axe, even though the head has been replaced once or twice, and the handle broken some time ago so that was replaced too, but its still George Washington axe...
Full Version: Determining value
Well, since this is the originality forum, and since that car can probably never be made original again (engine/transmission gone forever), I would say that it's value is in the eye of the beholder.
To me, it's a shame that a once collectible has been lost.
Really they should have converted a roller for that kind of a set up...but...to each his own!
The value of the 914/6 as an original '6' is obviously diminished by the mods--especially ones that cant be reverted to stock.
It's really only worth what someone's willing to pay, likely on par with a conversion car...
Don't be too hard on folks building race cars
Most of the original 6s that were converted to track cars were done back in the 70s and 80s when 6s had no huge value...
Was cheaper to make a 6 into a race car than it was to take a 4 cylinder, convert it to a 6, and then do the race car conversion.
Most of the original 6s that were converted to track cars were done back in the 70s and 80s when 6s had no huge value...
Was cheaper to make a 6 into a race car than it was to take a 4 cylinder, convert it to a 6, and then do the race car conversion.
QUOTE(DanT @ May 16 2011, 06:05 PM) 
Don't be too hard on folks building race cars
Most of the original 6s that were converted to track cars were done back in the 70s and 80s when 6s had no huge value...
Was cheaper to make a 6 into a race car than it was to take a 4 cylinder, convert it to a 6, and then do the race car conversion.
I only lament that there are so few original or original-capable sixes available to those of us who would like to have one. Understand the cheap racing platform from bygone eras, but wouls rather they had modifies fours for that purpose.
I wonder if I'll ever have an original.
P
I had a similar car. To me, as long as the VIN is that of an original 6, and the majority of bodywork is the original metal, its an original 6.
Mine was an original 6, but with a 2.7, bolt in cage and modified brakes and suspension from a 930. Fuel tank was replaced by racing cell.
I replaced fuel cell with original tank, and removed cage for a harness bar. Kept the 2.7 and suspension mods.
That was in my eye, a well modified original six, and worth substantially more than a conversion, but a lot less than a non-modified original 6. So, at this date, I would estimate:
Good conversionwith a 4 VIN = $20k
Modified, but not full track 914/6 with a 6 VIN = $25-$30k
Bone Stock 914/6 with a 6 VIN = $35k on up.
Mine was an original 6, but with a 2.7, bolt in cage and modified brakes and suspension from a 930. Fuel tank was replaced by racing cell.
I replaced fuel cell with original tank, and removed cage for a harness bar. Kept the 2.7 and suspension mods.
That was in my eye, a well modified original six, and worth substantially more than a conversion, but a lot less than a non-modified original 6. So, at this date, I would estimate:
Good conversionwith a 4 VIN = $20k
Modified, but not full track 914/6 with a 6 VIN = $25-$30k
Bone Stock 914/6 with a 6 VIN = $35k on up.
If it has a 6 vin, it's a real 6.
A conversion starts with a 4 vin.
I think the line is drawn on any car with the vin, not the mods.
A conversion starts with a 4 vin.
I think the line is drawn on any car with the vin, not the mods.
I have to agree with mepstein. If it is an original six it is an original six. Some are going to be more original than others from that point forward. Mine does not have the original 2.0 or transaxle because back in the early 80's it went south. I have an original '71 six engine case that is extremely close to my original engine number, so it is period correct. Does that help? Who knows. But I have it just because. Some day I will see an original six transaxle for sale for a reasonable price and buy that too to keep with the original engine case, just because. But the one thing that is not going to happen is that car going back to its original color - gold. Sorry. Likely to be a rotisserie restoration and end up Irish Green. Regardless, will be a very nice example of an original six.
Here's my take on an "original 914-6". My opinion & feel free to take me to task.
An "original 914-6" has engine and transmisssion number to match the VIN. Yeah, I know that the tranny numbers are vague, and I'll give some ground (limited) there. It should have a 2.0 six from the 914-6 lineage at the least. Bodywork should be as delivered for that vehicle. Paint should be at least 75% original. If the paintwork is greater, but the original engine/trans are correct it is a restored car. And, there is nothing negative about a properly restored 914-6. I would bid on a restored-to-original six anytime.
The original poster inquired about the value of a highly modified six that seller considered "original". It is FAR from original & would take extreme bucks to bring it back to even restored levels. It is obviously overpriced.
Look, you guys know that I'm a purist. Would I convert a 4 banger to a six? Yeah, I already have a 4 banger original car. But I would only do it with "lost" 914-4. Would I mess with an original six - no way! It's a classic, and deserves to be treated as such.
The principle is the same here - would you put flares and a 3.6 in a 904 or 906?
Pat
An "original 914-6" has engine and transmisssion number to match the VIN. Yeah, I know that the tranny numbers are vague, and I'll give some ground (limited) there. It should have a 2.0 six from the 914-6 lineage at the least. Bodywork should be as delivered for that vehicle. Paint should be at least 75% original. If the paintwork is greater, but the original engine/trans are correct it is a restored car. And, there is nothing negative about a properly restored 914-6. I would bid on a restored-to-original six anytime.
The original poster inquired about the value of a highly modified six that seller considered "original". It is FAR from original & would take extreme bucks to bring it back to even restored levels. It is obviously overpriced.
Look, you guys know that I'm a purist. Would I convert a 4 banger to a six? Yeah, I already have a 4 banger original car. But I would only do it with "lost" 914-4. Would I mess with an original six - no way! It's a classic, and deserves to be treated as such.
The principle is the same here - would you put flares and a 3.6 in a 904 or 906?
Pat
I think I know that car. It's very rare (if it's the one I'm thinking of) because it's a 72. Gemini Blue with Flares?
I think it's a tad over priced because the current owner paid too much for it.
I think it's a tad over priced because the current owner paid too much for it.
My take,
Factory six left the fatherland with a 2.0,in factory paint etc etc
Originality is,to me,a car that is exactly as it left the factory.
Original six is like my car, a factory car that was modded by the previous owner. a six originally but no longer as delivered by the factory
Factory six left the fatherland with a 2.0,in factory paint etc etc
Originality is,to me,a car that is exactly as it left the factory.
Original six is like my car, a factory car that was modded by the previous owner. a six originally but no longer as delivered by the factory
I've said my piece!
I guess we are playing with the word "original". So there is an original 914-6 car with the 914 VIN that is all original as assembled and delivered by the factory and then we have what probably the greater percentage of these cars are today, original 914 VIN cars with some alterations, typically engine upgrades. So long as one is clear in representing their car and its condition, that is to say, non-original engine, etc., then I see no problem.
Man, the more I read here and the longer I have my car the more it kills me that it was originally delivered gold. Don't think I haven't loss sleep (am I the only one that is this crazy?) over restoring it to the original color (which I do not like) or painting it a color that I really like, like Irish Green, Adriatic Blue, etc.
Despite all my ramblings above, I still think an original six (to me) is a factory six chassis. Trying to find one that has never been touched, and I mean no paint work or anything, is probably not probable. Frankly if you were to find one like that I would bet it would still have rust working somewhere.
I bow down and respect originality, but I also love a nicely restored and mildly upgraded (or improved) car that is driven regularly to share with the "common man" who looks at our cars and says, "What the hell is that little boxy car?" and we get a chance to talk about our toys.
Man, the more I read here and the longer I have my car the more it kills me that it was originally delivered gold. Don't think I haven't loss sleep (am I the only one that is this crazy?) over restoring it to the original color (which I do not like) or painting it a color that I really like, like Irish Green, Adriatic Blue, etc.
Despite all my ramblings above, I still think an original six (to me) is a factory six chassis. Trying to find one that has never been touched, and I mean no paint work or anything, is probably not probable. Frankly if you were to find one like that I would bet it would still have rust working somewhere.
I bow down and respect originality, but I also love a nicely restored and mildly upgraded (or improved) car that is driven regularly to share with the "common man" who looks at our cars and says, "What the hell is that little boxy car?" and we get a chance to talk about our toys.
Original = ?
Factory = ?
Stock = ?
The problem lies in the fact that the word "original" can be associated with any of the other two words.
"I have an original factory six" "Is it stock?" or "Is it original"
"I have a six" "Is it factory?" or "Is it original?"
If the word "Stock" is used... that ends all debate in my book.
Back to the car at hand, it's a factory six which "originally" left the factory as such. It's far from stock though.
Factory = ?
Stock = ?
The problem lies in the fact that the word "original" can be associated with any of the other two words.
"I have an original factory six" "Is it stock?" or "Is it original"
"I have a six" "Is it factory?" or "Is it original?"
If the word "Stock" is used... that ends all debate in my book.
Back to the car at hand, it's a factory six which "originally" left the factory as such. It's far from stock though.
It is and always will be a 914-6
As far as "Original" & "Stock" goes, my Opinion is "Who Cares" - no 40 year old car still has it's original tires and no longer has Zero mileage, so it is not how it left the Factory. Cars are meant to be driven, some to be raced.
Quite frankly our cars are not really worth much, and that is why so much modification gets done
As far as "Original" & "Stock" goes, my Opinion is "Who Cares" - no 40 year old car still has it's original tires and no longer has Zero mileage, so it is not how it left the Factory. Cars are meant to be driven, some to be raced.
Quite frankly our cars are not really worth much, and that is why so much modification gets done
QUOTE(carr914 @ May 26 2011, 11:40 AM)
It is and always will be a 914-6
As far as "Original" & "Stock" goes, my Opinion is "Who Cares" - no 40 year old car still has it's original tires and no longer has Zero mileage, so it is not how it left the Factory. Cars are meant to be driven, some to be raced.
Quite frankly our cars are not really worth much, and that is why so much modification gets done
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ May 25 2011, 06:39 AM)
I guess we are playing with the word "original". So there is an original 914-6 car with the 914 VIN that is all original as assembled and delivered by the factory and then we have what probably the greater percentage of these cars are today, original 914 VIN cars with some alterations, typically engine upgrades. So long as one is clear in representing their car and its condition, that is to say, non-original engine, etc., then I see no problem.
Man, the more I read here and the longer I have my car the more it kills me that it was originally delivered gold. Don't think I haven't loss sleep (am I the only one that is this crazy?) over restoring it to the original color (which I do not like) or painting it a color that I really like, like Irish Green, Adriatic Blue, etc.
Despite all my ramblings above, I still think an original six (to me) is a factory six chassis. Trying to find one that has never been touched, and I mean no paint work or anything, is probably not probable. Frankly if you were to find one like that I would bet it would still have rust working somewhere.
I bow down and respect originality, but I also love a nicely restored and mildly upgraded (or improved) car that is driven regularly to share with the "common man" who looks at our cars and says, "What the hell is that little boxy car?" and we get a chance to talk about our toys.
You are my hero!
Well said & yours is my favorite color! I appreciate the fact that you (disliking the color) redid it to spec! Your numbers match & you can smile on that as you approach old age. Much better investment than a house.
Pat
QUOTE(carr914 @ May 26 2011, 09:40 AM)
It is and always will be a 914-6
As far as "Original" & "Stock" goes, my Opinion is "Who Cares" - no 40 year old car still has it's original tires and no longer has Zero mileage, so it is not how it left the Factory. Cars are meant to be driven, some to be raced.
Quite frankly our cars are not really worth much, and that is why so much modification gets done
I can see your point, though I disagree with it.
Depends on the point of view.
I'm a near 40 year Porsche owner. 72 914 was the first, followed by a 70 E Sporto, 76 924 (yeah, I know - but I liked it), and a 73 CIS 911T. I've owned very few Porsches compared to others.
But the ONE important car that has eluded me is a 914-6. No flairs. No monster motor. Just 100% stock, and verifiable. COA should match. Numbers should match. Proper resto would be accepted, so long as all original euipment was there. Turnkey.
This what a collectible six should be, and will garner the most value. Not that that matters much to an old fart like me.
No, if I can't have a "real" six, as produced, I'll pass on all. I'll find it.
And, I'm not pissing on the guys who've had fun with six chassis'. But, could someone just save an unmolested one for me?
QUOTE
"Who Cares"
I would think... a lot of people. Pat for one. Any really serious auction house in the future would put a premium on a car that is totally, original, stock and correct. The very next car built off the line could be auctioned right along side it and bring much less money because it was painted black by an owner that liked black.
Bottom line is, cars are meant to be... "a lot of things to a lot of different people". Some are collectors and gain a great deal of satisfaction from that. Some are drivers and get their satisfaction from that. Some are racers and they love that.
Eric's Definition works for me. Stock means as it left the factory.
Original or factory six can mean any 914-6 that was built by the factory.
Original color or original paint mean the color or actual paint it left the factory with.
Stock engine means unmodified. Original engine means numbers matching, but could be modified.
As far as values go, it always depends on the buyer. An all stock six is worth much less to ME than a 914-6 with properly installed factory steel flares (not AA repros). They were made by the factory to be put on these cars and are more rare than 914-6s. The factory also modified cars with bigger brakes and wilder engines.
Paint can always be changed, but it's very expensive. If you are doing it for investment, then it should either be original or popular. Over the last few years I have seen silver, yellow, orange and blue cars sell quickest. Irish green and white are the most common and don't seem to move as quickly. Before changing the color of a car to a different stock color, I would try to find another car in the color you want. Non-factory colors can be amazing and just as or even more valuable if you choose wisely.
Interiors, suspension, and brakes are easy and relatively cheap to upgrade or return to stock, except for 914-6 rear calipers which are hard to find.
Things that devalue a 914-6 in priority order:
Missing original engine
Missing original trans
Need rust/body repair
Need paint
Missing heat exchangers
Missing rear brake calipers
1972 models have key on column instead of dash
Other mods
Original or factory six can mean any 914-6 that was built by the factory.
Original color or original paint mean the color or actual paint it left the factory with.
Stock engine means unmodified. Original engine means numbers matching, but could be modified.
As far as values go, it always depends on the buyer. An all stock six is worth much less to ME than a 914-6 with properly installed factory steel flares (not AA repros). They were made by the factory to be put on these cars and are more rare than 914-6s. The factory also modified cars with bigger brakes and wilder engines.
Paint can always be changed, but it's very expensive. If you are doing it for investment, then it should either be original or popular. Over the last few years I have seen silver, yellow, orange and blue cars sell quickest. Irish green and white are the most common and don't seem to move as quickly. Before changing the color of a car to a different stock color, I would try to find another car in the color you want. Non-factory colors can be amazing and just as or even more valuable if you choose wisely.
Interiors, suspension, and brakes are easy and relatively cheap to upgrade or return to stock, except for 914-6 rear calipers which are hard to find.
Things that devalue a 914-6 in priority order:
Missing original engine
Missing original trans
Need rust/body repair
Need paint
Missing heat exchangers
Missing rear brake calipers
1972 models have key on column instead of dash
Other mods
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Sep 1 2011, 11:59 AM)
QUOTE
"Who Cares"
I would think... a lot of people. Pat for one. Any really serious auction house in the future would put a premium on a car that is totally, original, stock and correct. The very next car built off the line could be auctioned right along side it and bring much less money because it was painted black by an owner that liked black.
Bottom line is, cars are meant to be... "a lot of things to a lot of different people". Some are collectors and gain a great deal of satisfaction from that. Some are drivers and get their satisfaction from that. Some are racers and they love that.
Agree on all your points. My personal requirements are mine. Yours are yours. I don't fault anyone for there's. Just would ike to see more of the six breed left alone. My opinion only.
Pat
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