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Ok here are the pics of the car that I am going to buy. I worked on getting it running and I believe I think I know what's wrong with it.

I wasnt getting any spark to the spark plugs. So I traced it all the way back to the MSD. I believe the MSD is bad but wanted to ask you guys for sure before I go and spend 300 bucks.

There is a gold box to the right of the MSD, not sure what this is. I did check the transformer and I am getting voltage from there. I checked the MSD as per their website and from what I can tell its not providing spark.

But what is the gold box? Wanted to make sure it might be something simple and I am missing it before I spent the 300 bucks.

You should be able to bypass the MSD and get it to run. You don;t need it in the system.

I'm a fuel injection guy, so don't know much about the msd boxes. That junction block does not look right to me. Where do all those wires go? Can you stand back and get some overall shots. Wide angle? How bout some shots of the deep hole below the battery. Also a good shot of the relay board without the cover.

Nice looking car. Pedrini's are my favorite stock wheels. Everyone has Fuchs.

None of those three boxes look original to me. But that is a nice looking car and I like the wheels too. Good luck.

How do I by pass the MSD? As for the wires and where they go.

Out of the MSD 2 of the wires go to the coil.

One red wire goes to the starter, one is grounded.

A couple go up to the junction box and goes into the transformer and to that gold looking box.

This is from memory. Which kinda sucks lol

I cant get any more pics until Monday. Its over in my uncles wearhouse for his pawnshop and he is closed on Sundays.

The gold box looks like yet another CDI box, but it may be the power supply for some kind of points-conversion thing.

I don't like MSD's - had too many of them fail.
However - they're only about $175 at Summit and FLAPS everywhere so don't ahop anywhere they want you to spend $300 for one.

All you 'need' for a Kettering ignition system is points, condenser, and coil.

The hookup on the MSD looks about right. the 'transformer' is actually a loading coil (half a transformer) that's used to trigger the tach. There are other, better ways to trigger the tach.

Have a look inside the distributor and see of you've got actual points in there or something else - maybe an optical pickup and shutter wheel, maybe some kind of magnetic trigger. Where you go next depends on what we're working with. See if you still have a condenser attached to the dizzy. It might not be connected (not used with CDI) but we need a better idea of what pieces you have to work with.

We'll get you spark, and then you can decide what 'modern upgrades' you want to progress to.

Can you point me in a direction to where some pics of the different types of points your talking about?

I remember what it looks like under the cap but dont know where to start explaining what it looks like. Because I dont know the jargon.

The gold boxlooks like a Crane XR700 or XR3000 optical trigger box (points replacement mechanism). You will find a trigger wheel and optical pickup inside the distributor.

Gold acts as a trigger mechanism to fire the msd unit.

The gold unit can be used alone with a standard blue bosch coil instead of the msd unit.

Ok so your saying disconnect the MSD unit and install a bosch coil? but wouldnt I also have to replace the distributor and points?

what coil do you have now? might be OK.
The points-replacement unit (gold box) is now youy points.
Verify it's working, then go with it...

not sure what points i have now and dang i wish i could get a pic. But when i took the cap off there was the rotor and on the side there was something that looks like it has a wire attached to it. At first glace it looked like it was melted but when I looked closer it's supose to look like that.

Here is the basic MSD wiring. If you take the trigger input and put it to the output and remove the MSD you will prove or disprove the MSD working.

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Kg6dxn wrote:
"Here is the basic MSD wiring. If you take the trigger input and put it to the output and remove the MSD you will prove or disprove the MSD working."

Would you mind restating that?:

Is the "trigger input" the + or - wire described as the "original coil wire" on the diagram?

What/where is the trigger "output" you've referenced?

I think you're suggesting he disconnect the four main wires coming from the MSD, then reconnect the "original coil wires" to the coil? Would that be sufficient to get a spark at a plug assuming the remaining components are operating?

Could someone tell Superdad88 (and me) what they think the after marked parts in his ignition system consists of? For example, it sounds to me like there is an optical trigger in the distributor that is controlled by electronic timing which fires some sort of CDI (gold box?) That's just a shot in the dark since I've never used any of those. Thanks.

BTW, superdad, nice looking car!

It's stated pretty plainly on the MSD diagram, but to 'revert', you'd take the wires from the MSD attached the coil and remove them. Then take the 'original coil wires' and reattach them to the coil. Switched +12 from the ignition to Terminal 15 (+). Wire from the points to Terminal 1 (-).

yes.


The parts of the puzzle are in the thread but not all the dots are connected...

The gold box is a points replacement. It, too, could be defective - or the actual optical trigger in the distributor. Or any of the connections could be bad...

Basically - two wires from the gold box talk to the optical trigger unit in the dizzy. It'll also have power and ground. And an output wire that acts just like the wire from the points. This is now "original points wire" if you're an MSD.

For all those connections, the MSD hookup is simple, like it shows. High-current power and good ground. Two wires to coil to make spark. One wire from the points. And what used to be switched +12 basically becomes a 'power switch' for the MSD. Complicated only slightly by the fact that it's also the +12 for the points replacement module (gold box).

The MSD can be tested independently. Power on, intermittently ground the 'points wire.' You should make sparks.

The points replacement can also be tested separately with a meter.

With a points / coil system, the points open to collapse the field in the coil to produce a spark to the plug. Points wear, corrode, pit, closing the gap set and decreasing the time for saturation of the secondary winding in the coil .... known as dwell. Decreased dwell time ... decreased spark energy. This wear also changes the timing of the engine.

Points replacement ... cheap so to speak:

Two types ... magnetic (Hall effect) and optical triggers .... The magnetic ones have magnets embedded in a device that goes over the point cam of the dizzy with a module that "senses" the passing of the magnets and causes collapse of the secondary coil windings, producing a spark.

Optical is a light beam between two LEDs. Slots in the trigger wheel allow the light to pass, producing a trigger to collapse the secondary windings in the coil.

Both systems produce maximum dwell time for saturation of the coil = best spark energy.

The optical systems generally have a trigger box, which is nothing more than a capacitor that charges rapidly. When triggered, it shoots more stable voltage to the coil than a conventional system, supposedly insuring a maximum spark energy to the plugs.

The MSD, Crane Hy-Fire, and I don't remember the rest of them are basically the same .... They trigger a coil or a transformer (Porsche CDI is a transformer ... the CDI unit shoots 400 Volts to the "coil" which is why they won't work with a standard coil). High energy coils are used with these systems for hotter spark. A conventional coil can overheat and explode if fed to much voltage.

So, in this case, the PO was using an optical trigger to trigger the MSD which fires the coil ... coil is probably matched to the MSD for higher spark energy ... actually just redundancy as the MSD could have been triggered with points (and all the associated problems with points ... variable dwell, incorrect timing due to wear).

If the Gold box were hooked directly to a "standard" coil or a "hot" coil, the system would produce spark, reliably without varying dwell or timing as there is nothing to wear.

Oh well .... more coffee. Google Crane XR700 and you will find installation instructions for it. Pretty simple.

Acording to some pics i have seen it looks like it has an optical trigger under the cap.

That's how I checked to see if the MSD was bad. I didnt get any spark.

Either box or both could be no good. If you aren't getting spark at the plugs when cranking the engine, one or both could be bad (Yes, the Crane Trigger Boxes fail too!).

Regardless, buy the car ... it looks really good. You can always go back to a points setup fairly cheaply to get it running.

Unless someone does it before tonight, I will try to image the Crane system and post the images.

I paid him for it yesterday. with the understanding that what ever it takes to get it running we split the bill down the middle.

Wish you guys were closer. Beer and pizza would be on me.

That's how Autotronic suggests it be tested.
Of course, that test is only valid if there is +12 at both the places it's supposed to be. It's really important that the 'heavy' wires go directly to a high-current source, like the battery. All multi-spark systems generate a lot of energy - much more than can be delivered through the switched ignition lead.

But - could also be that the 'coil' - which has not been seen or described - is bad.

Be advised that anything on the output side of the MSD is potentially lethal voltage - test with care !

If you wanted to continue with the MSD, the Summit MSD clone, the Crane HyFire, or some other CDI box, I'd recommend getting either a Crane high output pulse transformer, or an MSD 'High Vibration' Blaster-2. (The 'High Vibration' Blaster is the only MSD-brand 'coil' that can be mounted in any orientation...)

If you want to just get it running, and deal with CDI later, a Bosch Blue will do nicely for now. You'll also need a condenser, which may or may not still be attached to your dizzy. (Actually - if you keep the Crane points replacement module, you may not need the condenser either...)

You might also not get a spark if the rotor isn't pointing 'close' to a spark plug tower. with 6's and 8's there's usually one 'close enough' all the time, but /4's towers are pretty far apart...

The advantage to keeping points with CDI is that they draw so little current that they don't arc and burn. They are still subject to rubbing-block wear tho. If the Crane is working, I'd keep it.

Bummer ... I had just made airline reservations to come and purchase it ..

Where did you check for spark? Did you index the engine so the disty rotor is pointing to a spark plug?

For my 2 cents, go to a Pertronix electronic points replacement and standard blue Bosch coil. This is relatively simple and works. Some say they fail if the ignition is on and the engine not running so I just avoid this situation.

Thanks everyone for the education.

Superdad, I hope you didn't mind.

One reason I asked is that to find the problem you have to decide whether you're going to work your way back from the plugs until you find electricity or, replace it all with a stock ignition and start reinstalling the add-ons one by one until it stops working. For either strategy to work you have to understand what you got. As it's been said, watch out for those capacitors, they can store some juice.

Good info guys.

WE HAVE SPARK!!!! I took the MSD out of the system and took the 2 wires from the gold box and connected them to the coil.

Now all i need is a new fuel pump. I tried putting 24v to it and nothing. I can spray starter fluid in the carb and it will act like it wants to fire but stops as soon as it quickly burns up.

Anyone know where I can get my hands on one? I can't seem to find one not even from pelican parts.

Use the single in / single out that was installed on the '75 - '76 ... much cheaper than the 3 port pump. And the pressure relief port on the 3 port was useless. Just run the return line direct without the "T" from the pump.

You can get one from NAPA for about $32 ... Part Number N69133 ... there was a post on it. It will have a 12 mm inlet and 7 mm outlet. Connectors are spade terminals. It is a Genuine Bosch.

Don't panic when you look up the part number as it will tell you it's for a Ford ... these pumps were used on a LOT of cars.

Wait wait wait--you said carb? Does this have carburetors on it? If so, you DO NOT WANT the stock pump or anything close to it! You want a low-pressure pump for carbs; available at many places, likely including your favorite local parts store. Most of the mail-order outfits also sell Facet "clacker" pumps (they're loud but they're cheap) that work.

--DD

Well I just assumed it was a carb engine. Didnt know they made FI back in 72. WOW I have alot to learn.

So I guess I need to figure out if its carb or FI. OK so after doing some reading I am guessing its FI because a carb 1.7 is supose to be illeagle and were switched from carb to FI. Is this correct?

Jason

DO NOT GUESS.
You can't make any assumptions based on anything you read anywhere.
All that matters is what's actually on _your_ engine...

VW's had Bosch D-jet EFI at least as far back as 1969, with the 411/412 Fastback/Squareback. 914 production started in 1969.

a simple clear photograph of the entire engine compartment will clear up a host of questions. *Probably* it is injected and the thing in the center is the throttle body.

It's OK if you can't tell by looking - we all started somewhere. But someone here _can_ tell by looking so - picture please. Help us help you...

I don't think this will be a easy as it sounds, but we can hope. What is the back ground of this car? How long has it been sitting? Nice looking car though.

In another thread, he had stated that one of his relatives owned a Pawn Shop. The PO apparently stopped paying the loan money back on the pawned car and he had spotted it in amongst other things in a storage facility. An agreement was made to purchase the car for $1500 (which I would have jumped on).

I think he said the car had been sitting about 5 years. His relative would start it occasionally to move it, but it stopped starting.

I don't think I am dreaming ...............

You are correct. But it was in the wearhouse for around 3 years, my uncle would start it and move it around to access more space or move it more out of the way within those 3 years he would start it. Up until a few weeks ago he went to start it and it wouldnt start. I will stop over there after work and take abunch of pics of the engine and post them.

Thanks guys

Nice buy, love the color

Yeah, I can't wait to get it running so I can take my daughter for a ride. She's 6 and still has no idea I have it. Don't want to show her till I pull up in it.

Here are some pics of the motor and the fuel pump.


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Definitely D-jet FI. That's a plus once you get it sorted out with the ignition issues.

Whats a D-jet and why is that a plus? Sorry i am trying to learn. Also any ideas what to do about the fuel pump replacement?

D-Jet = "D" is for Druck in German meaning pressure. System operates via manifold pressure. In your last pic, the silver pineapple is the MPS (Manifold Pressure Sensor) which feeds signals to the brain (ECU) which controls the amount of fuel sent to the engine via injectors,

where you want to read is P Banders Treatise on D-Jet

The fuel pump I told you about a couple of posts up will work admirably.

Cool, I will look into that pump and start reading. You guys rock!! Lets hope it fires and runs.

The + in fuel injection (D-Jet) is mileage (expect 27+ if everything is right), good starting in any weather and the ability to go to altitude without retuning.

BTW, none of your pics show the fuel pump. The last one shows the MPS (as Slits stated) and fuel pressure regulator.

Hey Zach .... MPS correct ... other item is the de-acceleration valve. Fuel pressure regulator would be on the other side of the engine.

You're right.... I forgot about that decel valve. No fuel pump though.