I am doing away with the fuel injection and going to a weber setup. Its a single carb and was wandering if the stock throttle cable would have to be changed. the kits part number is wk297 from webercarbsdirect.com. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcomed.


william

William,

I'm sure others will chime in, but there are better options. To really do the carb conversion correctly, you would probably want to go to dual carbs and would need to change the cam as a starting point. You may want to do a search on the forums as much has been written regarding this subject and you'll be able to get the details you need for a smart decision.

IMHO, the cam is just fine for carbs. Not optimal because it's a conservative profile, but will work just fine. Carbs run fine on the stock cams

That single carb though,. . . Buy a full face helmet at the same time to protect your head from this - That carb will be almost un-tunable and net you around 15mpg. I'm not kidding.

Save a little more money and then pull the trigger on a pair of Weber 40 IDF's. You will NOT regret it. The driveability is outstanding and the fuel mileage is really nice as well (upper 20s+ if jetted and tuned right). You will need to get a proper fuel pump for carbs too. DO NOT be tempted to try and regulate down the stock EFI pump to save a few bucks. That's a fire hazard.

Agreed with the above.
If you REALLY want a single carb for that car, I will give you one....

I installed dual dellortos back when I knew NOTHING about 914s and it drove me around the US for years without problems.

The only secret is synchronizing them. That requires a $30 tool.

Stu

any suggestions on a replacement fuel pump? as far as fuel mileage i'm not too concerned with, the car wont be driven very much

The facet will work fine, but has questionable reliability.

I went with the Holley "Red top" as it is supposed to be more reliable.
Pricey though. You can get them at Jeggs or Pegasus.

Stu

Especially after you find out how poorly it runs .....................

If you insist, a rotary pump works best, but you can use one of those little cube looking "Facet" electronic pumps (which are irritatingly noisy).

If you think you will get better MPG with single carb ?? vs duel not much different took off weber single 38/38 32MPG (runs like crap below 2,200 RPM) vs weber duel 40's 29 MPG

Running dual webbers runs crappy at first,one I sync them, no more problem, except that i have to clean the jets often due to ethanol on today's fuel... cleaning the jets are piece of cake. i even clean them while fueling at the gas station during long trips. takes 2 minutes each.

Save all your FI stuff. If you switch to that single carb, you may want to switch back to FI. That single webber has a noticeable flat spot when the second barrel opens. It also does not run well when cold. The atomized fuel will drop out of the air and dribble down the long runners until it warms up.

the facet fuel pump will require a fuel presure regulator. the rattle nosie the pump produces will drive you crazy.

Who have you been talking to? Don't do it. Whatever your FI problem is, you can fix it for less than you can convert to carbs

Stu, I just got a 74 2.0 and it has dual dellortos on it. The local speed shop cleaned and tuned them. There is a pretty big engine hesitation between feather throttle and medium throttle. Is this what people are talking about as a "flat Spot"?

Tangerine racing ( chris foley) has a nice kit to replace the fuel line and fuel pump. Just under $200.00, I believe. Includes all the clamps, hoses, return line block off fuel filter and pump. Plus you get the new SS fuel line.

Shop around for the carbs and do a search here on webers... There's a lot of info on the quality of the Chinese webers and the EMPI HPDX (?) carbs.

Yep. You have some tuning to do. When your dual carbs are dialed you have instant response when changing engine speed. No lag or hesitation just vroooom from idle all the way to red line.
Zach

++


Reading this post , that was exactly what i was thinking .


and cleaning carbs at the gas station ,

F/ I guys are getting some serious ammo on this thread .


sorry

NO MATTER WHAT SINGLE IS THE WORST OPTION !!! I HAVE 2 SINGLES IN THE GARAGE ANY TAKERS CHEEP ! __________________

NOPE THATS WHAT I THOUGHT??

How on earth do you do that? I'd be scared to death I'd drop one into the engine bay.

My idle jets are clogged on the 4-cyl I'm trying to sell.

My very first 914 I bought had just had the tranny rebuilt, but the PO couldnt get it to run once everything was put back together.

I bought it with the ASSURANCE that it was running fine before the tranny needed work, so I took the risk.

I was only 20 years old and had never owned a 914 before, but had VW experience.

I bought dual dellortos, slapped them on, fired it up on the first try and drove that sucker all over the country without ever having a carb problem.

So it is not that hard and everyone that tells you that you will want to switch back to FI is telling scary stories.

If the FI is all that:
Why do all the racecars I see at the track run carbs and
Why did the 914-6 come with webers instead of FI?

Stu

that's easy , ?


performance and simplicity . at the cost of higher service intervals .

and emissions are not a priority .

duh . !


vs. F. I , slighty better than lackluster performance . for long long time

no fiddling w/ theoredically my car run pretty damn well 38 yr old fuel system

Talk about apples and oranges ...


But you are right, FI sucks so bad, virtually every new car sold today has it.

Fuel injection for new cars sold today is great computer controlled stuff. The fuel injection from 38 years ago? Not so much. IMHO

....And a host of other horrors ...Redline make s a damn good reliable
fuel pump!......if you can find 1(stick with EFI)

Carburetors = All the problems associated with D-jet but in a teeny tiny package.

To your O.P. A single carb will not work satisfactorily. Single carbs require diverting exhaust to the intake to heat up very short manifolds -- per VW type 1.

Dual carbs used to be somewhat reliable but not anymore. Its really kind of sad. Carburetors work by sipping gas and air through very small holes -- not only the jets, but the acell. pump, the idle circuit, etc. It is amazing how fast modern gas will gum-up those holes and they are everywhere. The gumming problem is only worse if you are not planning to drive the car often.

There is significant set-up involved in installing new carburetors. They must be jetted, requiring multiple removal and replacement of the units. Jetting is an arcane science and is different for each car, driver and location. Some have three or more jets per carb. Then you figure out the A/F mix, then the idle, then sync them, repeat. It takes a long time.

If you must, and it is the first time working with carburetors, I strongly suggest starting out with a dual, single barrel, solex design, sometimes called "kadrons." Simpler, fewer variables to tune and less expensive. Check out: http://www.lowbugget.com/kadron_carb_page.html for some information.

Good luck.

Hmmm...
Funny, as I said, I knew NOTHING about 914s, put on the dellortos, synched them, then NEVER had to do anything to them in over 5 years.

Not once did I have to clean, jet or adjust jetting for altitude.
These were right out of the box.
I just told the place I bought them from what engine and they set everything for me.
And I could keep up with 240 Zs.....

Maybe it was just the fuel we had in the 90s.

AND MODERN FI, is adjustable and reconfigurable.
I am an EE and can BARELY understand how the analog FI works in the D-Jet & L-jet.

It's kind of like the Space Cowboys movie, they dont build analog control systems anymore.Everything now is digital.

Show me just one person on this forum that can dig into the FI computer and tweak it at all, and I will give you a cookie ( and tweaking the CHT sensor doesnt count, that's cheating).

Trust me, I know how, but it scares me and I am fearless ;-)

Stu

Carbs have known issues and simplicity on thier side. FI has better emissions, adjusts on the fly, is more complex and expensive. Keeping the 38 year old system running on these is getting more involved and costly due to the parts being NLA. i recently looked into FI options for a type IV and found a few options. If you don't include the DIY megasquirt, the systems that are complete are in the $2k range.

New carbs, manifolds, linkage, air cleaners, fuel pump, S Steel fuel lines, fuel filter and flex lines cost me less than $1k.

Until there are affordable alternatives to repair the original FI system, this comparison of apples & oranges will continue.

On a completely stock engine (which is the focus of this thread) there is absolutely no need to ever have to open the brain and try to "tweak" anything.
Again, apples and oranges ...


On a stock motor a good working stock FI should always be more efficient than a set of carbs.
The stock cam profile does not lend itself for the use of carbs.

Anybody who still thinks they can get "more power" from slapping a set of carbs on a stock motor needs to stop dreaming.

Stugray is correct to a point. Even today you can buy carburetors from folks who will jet them for your application. Low Budget and Aircooled performance, for example, specialize in modifying new carburetors for type 4 engines. I'm sure that Auto Atlanta and Pelican Parts offer some similar services. But that only gets you out of the jetting business....

Cannot find a link anywhere , but


Nascar has barely gone fuel injection testing this past weekend . grey car really weird looking

the car sounded awesome . saw it live on speed but no links yet /

Stu, It is definatly the gas. And besides gumming you have moisture/water issues with newer gas. Both carbs and FI have their markets, obviously. But Andy is right about reliabilty. When I was a kid in '71 I worked in a carb/elec shop. Carter, MoPar, FoMoCo, Holley; single jet, progressive, centerflows and even Quadrajets that the owner couldn't separate to work on . But even back then we were talking about the end of carbs. The writing was on the wall. Day in, day out the FI's were outperforming us then. And gas was good then. No flooded engines, no floats to stick; no choke to stick. And curse the man that invented non serviceable metering blocks. And best of all, customers usually didn't tinker with FI. But they all thought they were carb techs and would tinker with a perfectly good carb and tell us that was how they received it. Right.
In the end I can only say, this is why they make chocolate and vanilla.

Off topic but here is the link.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2011-...835750416_x.htm

I won't make any NASCAR comments or jokes.


On topic:

Listen to what is said:

Stock motor....stick with the stock FI. There are plenty of replacement parts out there .....for now.

I agree with Andy on this completely. I've had 914's with FI & 914's with carbs. I have always hated the carbs. I will always take the time & effort to put the FI back on one.

Stu, I think you may just have been lucky.

"Stu, I think you may just have been lucky. "

Well then I hope i am lucky again.
The current build has dual 40IDF ITALIAN webers, completely broken down and clean.
I hope my new butterfly screws are in the mailbox right now so I can start the rebuild this weekend.

WHEN they work as I expect, I will have THREE complete D-jet systems for sale even with (some) new injectors and manifold pressure sensors ;-)

Oh, and of course I have Jake's cam for carbs.....

Stu

Hey William, I am a fellow Floridian with a 73 914 1.7 w/ FI and I believe I am in need of a fuel injector or two or four. Maybe I can help finance your carbs. By any chance is yours a 1.7 and if so what is the condition of the injectors? Thanks and good luck!

Ben

Ben, just buy new ones from Busdepot as they sell them-http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=311906031B
Why would any have to open the ECU to tune the djet? Pretty easy to adjust the MPS to tune your FI.

in 10 years we'll all pretty much have 2 options:

carbs

or megasquirt / SDS.

Once again thanks for the info and discussion.

76-914--I haven't been talking to anyone and that is the problem. My sole source of information on this entire project has been from this board and the 914 Club before it went through its change of life. I haven't found anyone here willing to work on the car and I have become frustrated with my own lack of skills.

It appears I need to reclaim my room in the shop, clear off the workbench, get the multi-meter out and learn how to use it. I believe the fuel delivery system is good, although I don't "know" for sure. The lesson I am learning is "be patient grasshopper" and sequentialy pursue success. I have printed out the suggestions and will checklist them so I don't miss anything from a leaf in the fuel tank to the copper gasket on the manifold. Also using the Paul Anders D Jet trouble shooting chart.

When checking components for say the Ohm readings as in the CHT, do I need to remove them and bench test them or can it be done in place assembeled on/in the motor?

To remove the injectors, something I have never done, are there threads, attachment/set screws?

Simple tasks I know, but having never done them it is a little confounding.

Jim

That's what they said 10 years ago!

Removing the injectors is easy. Remove the fuel line from fuel rails. A 10mm nut holds each injector clamp down, so remove em. Pull off the FI connectors carefully, remove the injectors...
test them only with a 9 volts battery, don't use a 12 volts car battery!

10 years ago my FI probably worked fine. Now I'm on borrowed time with it and must do something to keep the car reliable and fun.

Another decade, and the remaining stock FI people will probably fall victim as well...

Just my guess anyway.

The CHT sensor only has the one wire going to it. It is grounded through the threads of the sensor itself. So you test it by unplugging the wire, and hooking your ohmmeter to the end of that wire and to a ground, like the cylinder head or the crankcase or some such.

Note that there are some parts (I think the intake air temp sensor is one) that have two wires plugged in; usually those ground through one of the wires so you would unplug the wires, and measure the resistance from where the one wire would plug in to where the other would plug in.


EDIT--

Oh, one more thing: Have you checked continuity through the MPS yet? There are two coils of wire in there, one that joins the outer two pins together and one that joins the inner two together. They both should show some resistance when checked with an ohmmeter (Brad Anders' page has the details), and they should not short to each other. If one of them is broken internally, it will act like the MPS isn't plugged in, and you'll never get any injector openings.

--DD

That would be great! Have you done this? Should I(do I have to) replace all four? is it a straight swap? Thanks for the tip. Nice Westy... looks like the engine came from my hometown.

I kinda dig my FI system,but fear the worst with the NLA aspect of things..I thing I will go aftermarket when it starts to pack it in...

My next engine be fueled by pixies with small watering cans of the purest hydrocarbon distillate....

gendent, I appreciate your questions as they were my questions a very short time ago.

You can check the resistance to ground of CHT and MPS at thier terminals as Dave said, and/or at the 22 pin plug at the ECU. To test at the plug: dismount the black box, open box, pull plug. The pins are numbered on the wires. The key to what pin serves what component and its correct value in Ohms is listed on the Anders site: "d-jetronic troubleshooting table: http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetP...m#Compatibility.
One of the pins is a ground (#11?) from which you may test the continuity and resistance of the others as described in that table.

CHT should be tested with a cold engine and a warm engine if you can get it started. CHT resistance should diminish as it gets warm.

The injectors I recently purchased at Bus Boys upon the recommendation of board members (thanks guys) are the real deal.

Good luck to you.

one injector is new the other three are what were on it when i bought car... let me make sure that they work and i will get back to you.....and my engine is the 2.0 1971cc i believe... im sure the injector would work for your 1.7 but the fuel volume that is greater than the 1.7 injectors not to sure

If you need injectors by four new ones so they match as much as possible in flow rates. 35 yr old injectors do wear out and flow rates vary....It really wakes up a engine to have injectors with a nice cone shaped spray pattern.

the injector i replaced from hill top motors located in jacksonville for $60 bucks i think