Here is a link to a web page on my install. Dave's 914 Megasquirt Conversion. I've been trying to get info that may help others up on it. I feel that the values listed in the tables will get most 2.0 L type IV's running. All, including, mine will need more tuning.

I've had it running for about a month on the MS and I'm gaining confidence in it. Went to the breakfast in Seattle on Saturday and it ran well albeit kinda rich. The enrichment for air density as the intake air temperature rises is still not right so it is too lean right after warmup enrichment but too rich when fully warm. When I get that figured out I should be able to lean it out more. Still, I travelled about 80 miles without a missfire.

Some of the guys that drove it and might want to chime in.

Dave

Thanks Dave.

In the near future... the plan was to have MS boards professionally soldered and new wiring harness' made for a nice conversion similar to yours. The factory MPS's are unobtanium and the other parts are very very expensive. The plan was to offer this setup as a "option" to people who want injection and dont want to replace all the good factory pieces they may already have (injectors..blah blah) I was trying to hold out on the project until MS came out with the ignition piece also (crank triggered)..I was semi disappointed that they used Ford components to makeup the ignition. Typically ALL parts stores carry GM injection pieces...before they carry Ford pieces.

Thanks for your post.


B

Dave,

looks great, good job....

I had the v1 MS on my 914 last year, drove it about for a few weeks and f'd up the engine....almost a year later, i hope to have the same motor (only better) installed in another 914 soon


Mine ran way, way too lean, but still started and had a perfect idle.

I rode in it so I got to see the A/F mixes as we (Zach Yeager and I) drove around. The A/F at partload ran at about 13 to 1 mostly and at WOT it was at 12.3 to 1 which is ok but a little rich. Seemed to have good power to me. Zach is going to dump his dual Webbers on his 2.3 and go to dual TB with MS.
Geoff

Geoff, Mueller,

Do you see any reason why we shouldnt move forward with a legit replacement ??

Mueller,

I was serious about the Dyno. The tanks go up soon. John is talking about hiring a EX Garret turbo guru (he worked for Garret 15+ years) who happens to be best friends with a head honcho at KKK also.


B

Geoff;

I know the car is running rich. The plugs look it, and the exhaust is way sooty. My concern with quoting Air fuel ratios right now is that the O2 sensor has never been calibrated so I would say it runs rich at part load and richer at WOT.

I've chased all the bugs except for the fact that the Air fuel mixture richens excessively as the temperature rises. I chose to run it rich at full warmup so it would not be lean as it is getting there.

My plan is to tweak the air density corrections by fooling the ECU into thinking that the intake air sensor changes more slowly, then retune the fueling map to run leaner at full warm. When that is done I'd like to drive it for a while then get a dyno done and post the results (Enrichments, VE table, Constants, Code, .inc files). Timing all of this depends on how long it takes to solve this and the usual demands from family and wife. Don't want to hear "You love that car so much why don't you sleep with it."

Brad;

Have you looked at an ignition called MegaSpark. It is programmable and uses Megasquirt electronics to fire an MSD 6A. Looks easy but no knock sensing or ion sensing. I'm thinking that may make a good project for me next winter. I felt the MSD ingnition did more to improve the way the car ran than the Megasquirt. It instantly provided more torque and smoother idle.

Dave

Dave, thanks for that link to MegaSpark. That is exactly what I was looking for, but somehow I missed it. I knew about the Megajolt and "lite", but I really just wanted to use a locked out distributor on my projects, but have a tunable advance curve.

Dave, installing MSD 6A didn't do jack for me.
How high revwise can you run the fuel map? Does the engine run out of fuel like with Djet at 6k?
I wonder how friendly the Megasquirt is the more cam? There might be some hp waiting there for us to use vs the weak stock cam.

Brad, I really think this is the cheapest and best FI replacement for Djet cars. Dave's car ran great just quite abit rich and needs dyno time to sort it out. Joe S was there lookin at it and is thinking of rewriting some of the assembler language to help out.

Try to find a OEM MPS nowdays, hell even a good used MPS is getting harder. I have one left out of 6 that I collected, sold off the rest to guys who needed em. The rebuilt we know are not the best and the tooling to build diaphrams would cost a lot of money.

With the Megasquirt people could install the kit and then dial it in to their own motor. Can't beat that!
Geoff

The Megaspark is exactly what I have been "waiting for". The plan was to get rid of the dizzy completely. I dont want a worn out dizzy firing anything again (not even locked out). We will have to discuss how to go about placing the magnets in the fan or something. I know its very easy to trigger a MSD box (just went over this last night on the phone)


Geoff,

Did you increase your plug gap or just leave it stock when you installed the MSD ??


B

Brad....yes, I do think it's a sellable item...I already have one sold to a fellow overseas (verbally of course) once I get one complete.

It is to go into a 2.4 (?) Type IV in a beautiful 550 spyder


What I'd like to know is the cost of the Megaspark beyond the MS based hardware....are the MSD parts expensive?

Brad,
This was the bane of my PEFI install. I know Jake Raby makes a billet mount that goes under the cooling shroud to hold a hall sensor over a disk behind the fan. The disk (with magnets mounted appropriately) replaces the spacer normally found there.

I fought with setting up a crank trigger for weeks and finally said "screw it" and put the dizzy back in - locked and with a Crane optical pickup. Instant success. Not nearly as cool as distributorless, but at least now I can drive the car. If I was keeping the -4 for the long-term I'd work it out, but with the -6 waiting in the wings I'll just run it like this and save the fancy stuff for the 2.7. It will be a whole lot easier to set up a crank trigger on a motor that doesn't have the end of the crank burried in fans and ducting.

The method I tried first was to mount magnets in the rolled rim of the fan pulley. I mounted the hall sensor on a custom mount on the front of the cooling shroud. The problem (I think) was that the hall sensor wants a nice tight 3mm air gap between it and the flying magnets. This was easy to set static, but once the engine was running it was impossible to hold a constant air gap because every time the alternator kicked in the fan pulley would flex. Not much, but enough to get misses.

I think going with a Jake Raby style mount behind the fan would be the only reliable way to get the job done.

-Ben M.

Thanks Ben.

Great info.

Ok. So a dedicated NEW billet housing that slips into the stock dizzy hole with the pickup in it will work just fine.... Something duplicated or bought in mass from MSD. The Billet MSD dizzy is not that expensive.

Maybe people would be happy to just have it and deal with a 30 year old dizzy.

I'm starting to sound like all the other 914 people... run with it Mueller. Let me know how it turns out.


B

I'm not a fan of the factory fan, too much mass to turn,
I'd rather see it:

1) Replaced altogether and replaced with a horizontal fan
(expensive, cannot keep stock FI plenum)

2) The steel belt ring replaced with a lighter aluminum unit. Then a magnet could be fab'd into it.
(not cheap)


Got a part number for the MSD unit and a list of the other MSD stuff that goes along with it?? (tach adapter or something like it)

Mike

Duping the base is childs play..

Billet VW Type I Engine (Air Cooled) - PN 8485

I need to keep my big fat mouth shut and not lead these people to think its going to be built.

B

Are you guys thinking about marketing a kit, or just putting together instructions?

I would recommend:

level I - Megasquirt, Megajolt, harness, cheap locked vw dizzy w/ Crane optical pickup and shutter wheel installed. And an ignition amp (anything will work. $19 HEI amp, junkyard amp, whatever).

level 2 - same as above but instead of dizzy, you get hall sensor & Jake Raby mount, sensor wheel for behind the fan, two ignition amps, two twin-post coils, and an expanable freeze-plug for the dizzy hole.


My system is running very well with a locked dizzy and crane guts. I know it's not optimal, and I'd prefer distributorless, but for $45 total cost it's hard to beat. I'll shoot some video of a timing light on my fan @ 6,000rpm. You'll be impressed.

For distributorless, I can't see a better way to do it than what Jake Raby is doing with his behind-the-fan mount. Buy the mount from Jake (it's only fair - he designed it, or licence it from him and cut your own), get the hall sensors and magnets from SDS, make the trigger wheel (simple) and you're good. Grab some off-the-shelf ignition amps and coils (KIA has some inexpensive dual-pole coils & amps) and you're good to go with distributorless for probably $200-300.

Just some ideas. I would LOVE to see a plug-and-play PEFI solution for the 914. If done carefully I think you could make this available for less or equal to the cost of a carb conversion kit. Do that and you've just caused a serious paradigm shift. Resurected 914's will start popping up all over the place.

-Ben M.

I can't seem to find that on my menu...

Baaaaaaa!!!!

So who will be the first to have me fab up the prototype harness fo this puppy...?

Jeff, for two years Iv'e been wondering "What the #3!! is he waiting for?". I would have thougth by now you'd have perfected the design and had an exchange program in full swing.

If people could buy a megasquirt that came with a 914 harness and a decent tuning map already installed I bet they would come in droves.

-Ben M.

i know i would

I'm unscribing from this thread..

Somebody run with it.

B

Brad, yes I changed the spark plug gap, switched to triple tips. back again to copper Bosch. Didn't seem to make much difference so the MSD went on the turbo RX7. There it made a difference.
Geoff

Guys:

The Megasquirt people seem very protective of the free nature of the system. They even have some not so veiled threats on the site. I think I would be very careful trying to wrap it in a for profit package. Also, Megasquirt and the DIY-WB O2 sensor are experimental in nature and warranty issues may be a problem for a business. I think it would be great for this to be available for any 914 people and I suspect the only way that can happen is with a business venture. But, whoever takes this on needs to really think it over.

I feel that any packages need to include an O2 sensor and preferrably a wideband. Most people are going to want to take advantage of the tuning capabilities and an O2 sensor is a must. With aircooled we need to be slightly rich and one can't get that info from a narrow band.

Dave

Megasquirt is one of 20-30 companies doing the same thing. We can purchase 1-2 year old (New Old Stock) boards from MOTEC without the MOTEC name on them for very cheap.

The software MS uses is almost a direct rip off from the Edelbrock people with some minor graphic changes. We have the people to code our own interface if need be.

My point is: we dont really have to use MS. They are basically the guiding light for a business idea like this.

I 100% agree about the WB setup. I think I buy WB O2's for 128$ or something close to that. Its been 4 months or so since the last purchase. I want to say they are Nippendenso's or something.

B

Dave,

Nothing wrong with charging someone to build an MS box. What one is really doing is charging for a service of putting together "a system"


What Al and Bruce (and I as well) do not want is some idiot building MS boxes and selling them for a profit with no support except for some disclaimer (see yahoo groups for help) That would be wrong for many reasons...it could potentially ruin the good name of the MS and of course it would tie up the list with plenty of qusestions from a pissed off buyer if that was his only support.

the only way I'd do it is to make it 100% plug-in-play...that way if the buyer or installer has questions or problems, troubleshooting would be much easier.

I agree with Mark Henry (see other post)...yes, by the time one goes thru all of the R&D one might be able to buy something OTS for darn near the price, but it will not be P-N-P. A project like this would have to be done by someone that wants to do it for the sake of the car, not for profit, since there will not be much if he wants to sell many.

For now, all I can offer is my documention, which is pretty piss poor for now...so basicly, i am useless for this project for the time being.

Mueller

That sounds good.

By the way, you were the inspiration. I read all of your posts on Yahoo. I even used your constants to start the car the first time. Not sure why it ran but it did, kind of.
Scared my son to death, the car's shakin, and coughin and backfirin. We both thought it was toast. Lucky they can be forgiving.

Dave

Like Mueller said - If you check with Al and Bruce you will find that they don't have anything against the MS being built and sold by a third party so long as it is done within the bounds of some very reasonable guidelines.

-Ben M.

Dave wrote @ Posted on Apr 22 2003, 07:57 PM


Wow, now that is scary....you need to find some better roll models quick before you start to take your 914 apart

Mueller

The point is I figured if you could do it so could I. And that is really the strong point of the Megasquirt community. Hope this doesn't sound too much like Dr. Phil, but all of the problems and solutions others experienced before are available to learn from for those who come later. I would hope this would carry over into any effort to distribute MS to the 914's. From what I have seen and the people I've met, I would expect that would be the case.

By the way, the car ran like crap on your file, but it was a place to start and I thank ya.

Dave

What about using the later distributor from a vanagon. I hear they bolt in and use a hall sensor?

Geoff

Call a bus recycler and ask how much. I choked on the price. I don't remember the quotes I got, but they were high enough that I found another way.

-Ben M.

I called a place, $100. Whats a Mallory go for or MSD unit?
Geoff

Dave,

I think I might have left out that I am using 1.8 injectors on my 2.0.

The only reason I picked those was that I got a set of rebuilt units for dirt cheap. That could be one reason why your motor ran so rich.

Mine was very lean (17:1 on average)

On the dyno, I first started with 38hp and once I richened it up, I was in the 70 range. I had other issues with the car, so I didn't proceed further with the dyno testing.

Startup with mine was sweet, no problems at all.......

I guess it's time for me to chime in here. I'm in the MS assembly / system planning stages for a Megasquirt conversion from dual 40 IDFs. According to the PO, my '73 1.7 has a big bore kit (1911cc ?) installed. Others who should know that have driven the car believe that to be true. I have most of the d-jet injection bits, but I plan on buying new injectors to eliminate any question on that aspect of the hardware. Should I use the standard 1.7 injectors, or would I be better off with the 2.0 units? Price difference is negligable, so that's not a consideration.

Any thoughts?

Garry

Garry:

The 2.0 injectors are big. The math says they can go almost to 250hp. I have had trouble getting a short enough pulsewidth on overrun so it runs very rich there. As I understand it, the Porsche engineers had the same trouble and tried to resolve it by turning the injectors off on overun and they added the decel valve. Smaller injectors probably would give you an easier time resolving that issue. I've decided to live with it and puke the extra gas out the back. Fortunately, we don't decel alot. There is a decel enleanment that I'm playing with but, I don't expect it to get much better.

It sounds like Mueller had a problem getting enough fuel. He may be able to chime in on injector size also. Possibly some more recent injectors that fit the runners might be an alternative. You may not be married to 914 injectors.

I'm happy with the package I have even with the above gripe. I kinda like having all those extra ponies sittin there waiting to get out. Kinda like having extra money in your pocket. Well maybe thats not such a good analogy. Probably gonna take alot of money to get those ponies out. Time too.

Guess I better treat the wife really good

Dave

If it goes rich enough on overrun you'll get a nice flame-shot out the tailpipe between shifts. A lot of kids with PEFI program that in intentionally. Be careful though. Nothing screams "pull me over, officer" like a 3 foot flame out the back of your hotrod.

-Ben M. (PEFI, Subaru injectors, no flames)

Guys

Found at least part of the reason I was running rich. I have been using a version of the code that allows me to vary the air fuel mixture with changes in manifold atmospheric pressure (tomtek V 2.7). That part is really cool but along with that came a table with enrichments and enleanments to compensate for changes in intake air temperature which Tom (tomtek) had set up for his engine and sensors. It was way off for mine. At the Seattle breakfast, my car was enriched by 26% at operating temperature when it should have been enleaned some because of changes in the air density with temperature. We knew it was rich, Geoff even thought he smelled fuel.

Anyway, I calibrated the sensor in the plenum by taking resistance in ice water, room temperature and boiling water then plugged the new figures into a neat little program called Easytherm and generated a new lookup table for changes in air density. I found a table on the enrichment screen that allows me to enter the amount of enrichment/enleanment for a given temperature and now its not rich.

Now I need to go back and retune which means a hour or so with my wife driving. If the transmission and clutch survive I should have a passable fueling map. Her favorite trick is the 1st to 4th shift (good test for lugging) but she also favors standing starts from 3500 rpms. Mind you she doesn't drop the clutch, she slips it until we hit about 25 mph. Still, she thinks tuning is great fun because we are doing something together.

My other option is for me to drive and have my 13 year old son tune. He thinks this a rolling video game and makes changes faster than I can keep up with. Each time you burn a change to the chip the ECU skips a fueling cycle so the car stumbles. Sometimes he's changing so fast I think I developed an ignition problem.

Anyway, I'm still making progress, I hope to have a leaner fueling map soon and then be able to include accelleration enrichments.

Dave

Dave this all sound SO familliar! My wife won't drive a stick and I don't have a 13yr old son, so I tune by myself (what a joke) or go get my dad to help. He doesn't know the tuning program so he drives and I tune. The only problem is that I can't keep him on task. He just want's to do WOT blasts through all the gears. If I want to work on part-load cruising, acceleration enrichment, or temperature compensation I have to do it between his runs. Oh well . We have a good time together.

All my naturally aspirated tuning has been done since last fall. I've got to drop the motor/tranny this week for a clutch job and I'm going to try to finish up the turbo plumbing at the same time, so in a few weeks I'll grab Dad again for some more tuning time.


-Ben M.

You guy's act like you dont have any friends ?? LOL

Somebody on this BBS cant help you ?? or do you live that far out in the woods that NOBODY will help you ??


B