Here's the skinny. I have an unmolested 1971 1.7 with original FI. What oil should I be using in this car. Brand, weight, etc.

Everyone here usually says 20w-50 Brad Penn, or RATs Snake Oil.

I'm about to change mine using Valvoline VR1 20w-50.

There are two things you need:

1. High levels of ZDDP
2. 20w-50

Like ripper911 said, there are only one or two oils that have those qualities in known quantities. Brad Penn Racing Oil is one of them.

-Aaron

Royal Purple has high ZDDP and 20-50 weight.

Thanks for the input, I don't want to burn my baby up. This is my second teen, first car gernaded. Never got that one put back together.....sad.

I've seen this 20/50 conversation before and I'm wondering if this just for high mile engines or new rebuilds too? 20/50 is heavy stuff versus the factory 30w and I would think it would reduce cooling thru the oil cooler. I'm running Mobil 1 10/30 synth with no issues?

go ahead and straighten me out

Multi weight oils were common when our cars were new and are appropriate for them now as well. New cars today are designed to use the very light weight oils that are common and they are better off with the very light oils. In my opinion (I have no secret corporate memos that were suppose to been shredded) it is the government and fuel efficiency requirements that have pushed the manufactures to these light oils. Why would they up their costs to machine to the tolerances required use these thin oils if there was no need to.

Oil viscosity was standardized many years ago by measuring the volume of oil that would flow thru a fixed size orifice over a given time frame at a specific temperature. I don't recall the time, orifice size, temperature but I passed that engineering class anyway. Multi weight oils meet the viscosity index of their lower number at colder temperatures and the higher number at higher temperatures. So a 20/50 oil has the viscosity of a 20 weight oil at say 15 degrees Celsius and a viscosity of a 50 weight oil at say 100 degrees Celsius. So a 20/50 will be slightly thinner cold that a straight 30 weight oil but it will be thicker at operating temperature.

In California with an air cooled car I always use 20/50 and currently I have been using Swepco 306 since I can get that locally and it has the zinc our engines need.

All 3 Porsche dealerships and the independent Porsche shop I worked at used 20/50 in all the air cooled cars. New motors got break-in oil to begin with before they got the 20/50.

Jim

Thanks for the info Jim. I never really understood what the numbers meant, but now I have a better idea. Off to find 20/50 royal purple.

There are actually many many racing and off road oils that have the correct zddp and qualities. just most of those options are either harder to get (mail order) or more expensive.

because they are specialized, most of them are also synthetic.
The truth is that these air cooled motors actually are better on synthetic
the air cooled motors are harder on oil because they don't have the water cooling to regulate the heat the way a modern motor does.

some of the trade offs can be increased leakage on old gaskets or seals


the VR1 is good
I use royal purple which has it
joe gibbs
redline
many many others.

Has anyone tried Mobil 1 0W-40? It's listed with 1100 ppm zinc. Seems like it might be the right stuff for our engines.

I've been running it in my M3 because it's specifically approved by the factory. When I saw the zinc level, I figured I'd try it in my 914. I'll let you know how it works out.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorO...oduct_Guide.pdf

modern cars don't need the zinc
they have things like hydraulic lifters, and roller bearings
modern cars have catalytic converters which get plugged by the zinc and really are the reasons that the oil companies took it out (the manufacturers wanted it out)

the 2nd reason was the phosphorus. Its the combination of additives that protect the bearings and moving parts. But the phosphorus breaks down and requires frequent oil changes (every 3,000 miles). So with the the change in additives (including removing the phosphorus/zinc combo) the car can now go 10 or even 15 thousand miles between oil changes.

look at the the letter rating on the oil
its inside the starburts API certification
for example SM or SJ

if the oil your using has an SM in its API rating it is the BAD stuff

The rating will tell you if the oil is produced to the new formula or old formula (ie: catalytic converter safe = bad, off road or not produced to be used with a catalytic converter = good)

zinc ratings around 1500 are probably the good stuff
1100 is the newer formulas.

one of many articles

I am running a six cylinder and tried to use Mobile 1, Not good, these motors are not designed for modern oils. I now run Rotella 15w40, 95psi ath the end of the straightaway.

Same with the gearbox. I was running Redline MTL. So far I have killed two first gears, rounded off the dog teeth. THe oil is so slick the synchronizers didn't slow down the gear. I have gone back in time and use Kendall 90w

I was browsing Jake's site recently and noticed that he said he was working with Joe Gibbs Racing to produce his Snake Oil.

The diesel oils have now also changed formula's to meet emissions and no longer have the zinc/combo package that was good for older motors

I've been running Mobil 1 20/50 in my Type 4 2 liter ever since I overhauled it in 2005. I was not aware of the need for zinc in the oil and I've never noticed any abnormal effects. What am I doing to my engine by not having the zinc in the oil? Is there a zinc additive I can use to supplement?

There is no noticeable difference in the way things run/sound/feel.

The additives are better at high pressure contact points in metal. The Zinc/phosphoru provide an extra barrier where metal is under higher contact pressure.

A modern cam has hydraulic lifters and roller rockers.
a Type 4 (and nearly all cars built in the 1980's and earlier) have cam lobes that push lifters to actuate the valve train.

At tear down your going to see increased wear and worn out cam's.

A lot of chevy V8 guys are noticing a loss of power at a very early mileage, due to their cam lobes wearing out and then you don't get full lift on your valves (thus the loss of power because a worn out cam is not opening the valves as much)

Its just an increased wear and shorter duration thing
especially in the valve train
my mechanic has a type4 lifter that actually has a HOLE worn through.

His race motors suddenly cut their lifespans in half when the oil changed.

high rpm, high lift, and high powered valve springs are all going to accelerate this. But stock 914's also have the need for the correct oil to save their cams/lifters

all old style vehicles without roller rockers or without hydraulic lifters are needing this barrier of zinc/phosphorus. Modern engines have eliminated all of the internal friction in their valve train (to improve gas mileage) and can get away without as much contact pressure between components

Thanks Brant for the education on the topic. I had no idea.

I learned than an additive is available http://www.zddplus.com/, but there are also those who contend that this may not be necessary http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/. I think oil discussions have never been definitive as long as I've been working on cars

I haven't done the math yet to figure out if Mobil 1 plus ZDDplus would still end up as expensive as the oils that have been mentioned. The last time I priced Royal Purple at my local FLAPs, I practically needed a 2nd mortgage to finance it.

P.S. - another article on the subject http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0702_pi...tive/index.html
And there is this from the Mobil 1 folks http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoro...Motor_Oils.aspx (Their chart indicates that their V-Twin or Racing formulas have the right numbers, but their recommendations make it sound like it would be a no-go for our engines)

Watch the vr1 oil. While it is a good oil, I think it lacks in detergent. I noticed when I ran it the oil got dark pretty quick.

Maybe you have that backwards. The dirt is suspended in the oil. That is what the detergent does. The filter is then supposed to filter out the dirt.

Brant is about 95% right. Everything sounds pretty good in laymans terms except the part about the lifters. The new motors have ROLLER lifters and roller rockers sometimes, so the pressure on the lifter scrubbing the cam lobe is not a problem with the crummy non high pressure oils. If the motor has FLAT lifter surfaces like a vw, 914, or sbchev or ford or lawnmower it needs zinc and phosphorus. Actually you can NEVER eliminate all the friction in a mechanical device. The oil guys happlily left out the good stuff without telling anyone as it made the profits go up. I think I remember Jake thought the cam mfg were making crummy cams and he made a dummy motor fixture that would spin the cams against the lifters under spring pressure to break in the cams and lifters and also to make sure they were good before he would use them in his motors. I think it came down to crummy oil in the end. He probably has the tale on his site.

There is a long thread on the web about motor oils, it's motor oil 101. I've posted the link here before but you can google it. It's written by a cardiac doctor that is a car nut and studied oils as a hobby a long time ago.

I worked in a cold forging process fastener huck plant and we tried to save money on the oils we used so some engineers came in with a cheap oil without the high pressure additives. It didn't run long and we had a very pissed off operator as his dies were screwed up and he lost about 8 hours production and blamed my predictive maintenance dept for messing with his production and creating a bunch of extra unneeded work for a new setup.

A few points:
-It takes more than high Zinc content to create an oil thats kind to vintage engines

-The anti-wear and detergency package ratios are very important and are often overlooked

-Modern oils that are available over the counter locally are for modern engines. Modern engines are SOHC/DOHC or utilize roller lifters.

-The API has focused more on clean engines than anything else since 2000 when people stopped buying cars and started leasing then; often not changing the oil for the entire lease period! The big 3 lost millions due to this.

--VR 1 is a straight weight oil, usually 50Wt. Watch the oil pressure light at start up with it and you'll note that it takes a second to go off at start up.. Thats because the oil has a crazy pour rate at ambient temp and takes a while to build pressure.. CRAZY engine wear occurs when this happens at start up.

- When attending a tribology seminar hosted by an API Certified Lubrication Specialist the question popped up about aftermarket additives. That question was "When should additives be used?" The CLS replied " NEVER".

Read the oil article at www.lnengineering.com for more detailed info. Charles and I have been developing oil since 2005 and have exhausted ourselves trying to find whats necessary to keep my engines and his components alive.

This is a normal number of oil samples that I send in to the lab at Lubrizol as we keep trying to perfect the perfect aircooled oil. I have a fleet of 14 test vehicles that range from VW and Porsche as well as Pinzgauer and even my aircooled lawnmover.. From 22HP clear to 620HP we have all the bases covered with extensive records of each oil that has been ran. Every engine we build has break in samples pulled and evaluated/ compared to all those before it and we continue this if the customer is willing to send in 8 oz. of their oil and pay a 75 dollar processing charge.

check out jegs or summit racing for the break in lube additives or just use a quart of break in oil in every oil change. that should give you enough of the zinc and phos to keep an engine from melt down.

I can't get the Brad Penn or Snake oil here in Japan as it would cost a fortune to import...so I use MOTUL 20W50 which is semi-synthetic and works great...lots of air cooled VW guys use it here...

Yet again, additives that are not made part of the package during formulation should be avoided. I have never seen anything good come from these in a UOA.

Outside the USA most oils are good; because the API doesn't impact oils outside the US. Motul products are very good in general.

so what you are saying jake is that it's better to run what ever oil you have access to with out any zinc or phos than it is to add a break in additive that does have the zinc and phos?

that really would be what is best for the engine under those conditions???

i know jake that you will only do what is perfect... but what about the rest of us mear mortals that do not have access or funds to do 80 dollar oil changes.

The only real way to know if an additive is working is to tear down the engine and assess wear (in a controlled environment)

I will say that ALL engine builders (mine included) don't like additives. There is no guarantee that the ratio, formula, or compatability will work with what you are adding it to

I'm about to tear down a motor this winter that went for 5 years of racing (100hours) on GM EOS additives. I'm quite curious to see how the cams look.

But repeatedly I'm told that it is better to buy oil with the correct ingredients than it is to add.

I'm still pouring old stock EOS into my beater toyota truck because I have it. But I switched over to royal purple for the race car because its already correctly blended.

There isn't much savings to adding an additive versus buying the right oil. Additives are about 10$ an oil change and the difference in say mobil 1 and royal purple is only $3ish a quart
so a tiny savings but not a big one.

So I should change my oil again, get rid of the VR1 20w50?
Jake mentioned the 50 weight VR1 but is the 20w50 as bad at start-up?

Aftermarket additives in general make good oils LESS effective.. They also make bad oils LESS effective. I have learned this on the dyno in back to back tests of just dumping the additive in. I have also seen this in UOA gathered before and after an additive was introduced.

Creating an imbalance in the anti-wear and detergency packages is exactly what aftermarket additvies are good for.

What the API has done to oils for vintage engines absolutely sucks. Oil development is pain staking, expensive and takes forever to actually see results. A type 4 engine roughly holds 4 quarts of oil.. My Snake oil is 39 bucks and change for a gallon. 10 gallons of fuel will cost you that much and will only take you 300 miles or so.. The oil change is good for 3,000 miles; so if you can afford gas for your car you simply can't afford not to run the proper oil.

Joe Gibbs and I are working on co-marketing the Aircooled Oil in 2012.. This means you'll be able to buy it cheaper and at any location where Gibbs products are sold. To date we have only been selling this oil to our engine purchasers and kit owners, but that will change soon.. The Gibbs bottle will have the Raby endorsement right on the label :-)

So for the time being, Brad Penn 20/50 is still one of the best oils to use...correct?

the Brad Penn oils are not a true synthetic.
Jake can correct me, but I think they are called para-synthetics?

it has to do with how they are composed and they don't have the qualities of a true synthetic

The brad Penn's have good additives, but ultimately I prefer synthetics in air cooled engines.

I understand that. But brad penn is still one of the best oils for the type iv yes?

Yes.

I sent an oil concern letter out last year to my engine and engine kit purchasers. I then posted it on the lubrication forum of my online community.
I will also post the link here:

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Oil_Concern.pdf

This information is still valid and it was written because not all Brad Penn oils are the same.

That link to the letter should make it pretty clear and simple to tell whether you are using the right oil.

Since my rebuild Brad Penn 20/50 High Performance "The Green Oil" is The only oil that has gone in my engine. I'm jes waitin on sum o dat Snake Oil to be distributed to give it a try.

If you don't want to run a synthetic
the original poster was asking if he should run synthetic

If you don't want to run a synthetic
the original poster was asking if he should run synthetic
[/quote]
Not trying to argue this point but only address the original question.

The topic is synthetic or not.
His original request:
"Here's the skinny. I have an unmolested 1971 1.7 with original FI. What oil should I be using in this car. Brand, weight, etc."

He has a choice to make. Synthetic or not? Whether it's synth, not synth or a combo(partial synth), what matters is the the oil will have the right stuff in it to make that engine perform and last like it was originally meant to. Jake's letter has all the info to really make a good decision on what kind of oil to use. Brad Penn High Performance or Racing oil is partial synthetic and contains the needed ingredients to maintain that unmolested 1971 1.7 with the right kind of oil.

It may appear I was too quick to make a decision on which oil to use. I changed it the other day using royal purple 20/50. Am I safe to assume this oil is ok. After reading the letter posted, it seems only the Brad Penn and the snake oil was the only way to go. I'll look for the Brad Penn on the next change. Thanks for all the input everyone!

Royal Purple is absolutely fine
that is my frustration with everyone spouting about brad penn... It IS NOT the only option out there. In fact since it is not a true synthetic some could argue that it is the WORST of the available oils with the correct formula
( zinc/phosphorus/and additives )

if you want a synthetic and the better qualities of dealing with heat (air cooled motors), possibly improving lubrication, and less break down then you have 20 or so oils to choose from. One of the good ones is royal purple

If you do not want a synthetic then brad penn is an option

leave the royal purple in
its fine

brant

I'm guessing you are running XPR? Looks like HPS would be well-suited for street cars. Any input on which formula, pros/cons?

I haven't really even looked at the HPS
my recommendation is to check the API rating (in the starburst on the bottle)
you don't want an oil that meets the SM rating system

make sure the HPS oils are not within that new rating
I don't even use the racing oil, because their normal oil is not SM

I'm only one motor on it
but my builder had probably 15 or 20 race motors on it now.

I met with another local race only builder to talk oils.
Specifically to talk air cooled 911 oils.
He (Steve Rowe) has fielded an ALMS car before and built all of the motors and transmissions for 3R racing who won the speedvision GT catagory about 3 years total with randy pobst, gallati, pilgrim driving

not a bad source of information
he told me 2 weeks ago that he has now moved all of his air cooled race cars over to the Valvolene VR1 full synthetic multiweight oils. He said you have to buy the "off road" packaged version to get away from the SM rating

Check the API rating no matter what brand
look at the starburst packaging!
I check every single quart that goes into the motor and its a 5 gallon oil system now on my 2.0/6 (20quart system)

We do oil changes every single weekend of use.
so about ever 2-3 hours of run time gets a valve adjustment, head torque check, and full oil change.

brant

I ran Royal Purple in the 160,000 mile engine in my 912E for every one of those miles. See this link for a full tear down evaluation of this engine after 160,000 miles of abuse and neglect. You will be amazed!
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.p...&Itemid=112

That was the "old" formulation that was available before it was found in every generic parts store in the USA.

Today's RP has changed, the old stuff used to have 3,600 PPM of Moly and 1600 PPM Zn, today the figures are no where even close to that. The current offering of Royal Purple doesn't meet my standards and hasn't since around 2008. The UOA made it very evident where the changes occurred and when. Like all oil companies; they don't tell anyone when they change a formulation, because they don't have to.

I got fed up with taking what we were supplied and automatically the whole engine program benefitted from this. I hate the unknown.

An aircooled 911 engine has a totally different demand for an anti-wear package than a flat tappet equipped TIV engine does. I have attained UOA from the VR1 and it is not a bad oil at all, however has issues with fuel dilution that can create issues with engines that have poor ring seal at temperature, like the Type 4. I have seen as much as 4% fuel intrusion in a VR1 sample in a 3,00o mile service interval with VR1, that same engine with our oil had less than 1/2 that amount of intrusion with zero changes made to the engine. The VR 1 is a race oil, it is not designed for 3,000+ mile oil service intervals.

Whatever brand of synthetic is on sale is what I've used over the years. Typically, it is Mobil 1 or Castrol.

I am wondering what this all means for me as my car has a Webb Racing cam with Hydraulic lifters. The previous owner told me to only use conventional oil. Anybody want to chime in and give me some advice? I need it! I have only had the car a few months and I am no mechanic.

Let me preface by saying I'm not an Amsoil rep. I have large air compressors at work which I was running synthetic oil from the compressor manufacturer and ever so often they would seize up. I switched to Amsoil and never had the seizing problem again. I have 2 stroke dirt bikes which would foul plugs regularly and since I switched to Amsoil 2 stroke I have yet to foul a plug. I run all my 2 stroke yard equipment on Amsoil and they are still running 10 years +. I would LOVE to say I'm running my '74 teener on Amsoil but its still up on jack stands. If your going with synthetic, get Amsoil. Its about the same cost as Mobil 1 but it comes out a lot clearer.