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scotty b
Jim dropped his car off to have me re-do the V8 ( 307 ) install he and Rod did a few years ago. This time around it will be getting the complete Renegade treatment, a new set of Dr. Sheas handi work. Elephant poly bronze bushings, sway bars, 108 c.v.'s. Some BIG ass sway away axles, and a lot of cleaning / detailing. I got started last friday pulling the engine and trans at the last minute before leaving for Matts party. Dr. Evil was going to do a quilie rebuild prior to the party's start. Once we opened up the box, the truth became known. Unfortunaely Jim's intermediate plate was shot. One of the worst Mikes has seen, so Mike took the stack back home to install a good plate, and do the gear swapping. I got to the shop today to find most of the area was tornm to shreds from Irene, so without power or water I couldn't do much other than tear the engine most of the way down. No way to get the flywheel ff until I have power back on so I can' mount it on an engine stand yet sad.gif I was in such a rush on friday I didn't get any pics of the whole car so you'll just have to deal with what I took today biggrin.gif

I must say, this car IMHO has the PERFECT amount of horsepower. Enought to smoke the tires for the redneck in all of us, BUT it is very controlable, and can take off from a dead stop without lighting the rubber up. BOLTS in a straight line and still hangs onto the apex like a 914 should and sounds like a mythological beast in heat. This is the best of both worlds aktion035.gif I am hooked biggrin.gif
JmuRiz
Sounds cool, I'll get a close-up look at it in Oct.
mepstein
"I must say, this car IMHO has the PERFECT amount of horsepower. Enought to smoke the tires for the redneck in all of us, BUT it is very controlable, and can take off from a dead stop without lighting the rubber up. BOLTS in a straight line and still hangs onto the apex like a 914 should and sounds like a mythological beast in heat. This is the best of both worlds I am hooked"

TRAITOR mad.gif


Someone's been selling some houses. smile.gif


bigkensteele
It can't be very fast - there is hardly any chrome.
BajaXJ92
While trying desperately to hide the fact that you've got the proverbial wheels in my head turning, how much weight does the motor and applicable trans add?
Dr Evil
Tranz is 75-80lbs. I lighten the tranz a little wink.gif
scotty b
QUOTE(BajaXJ92 @ Aug 29 2011, 05:40 PM) *

While trying desperately to hide the fact that you've got the proverbial wheels in my head turning, how much weight does the motor and applicable trans add?



A STOCK small block is a bit over 500 lbs. Knock a bit off of that for the al intake, headers, and pullies, I would guess this one is closer to 500 even. Stock h.p. on a 307 was around 200. Add a few for the headers, intake, carb aand ignition and this one maybe closing in on 230+ confused24.gif


Mark, I could change my mind once I drive a 3.2 biggrin.gif
Dr Evil
Why not just go both ways, Scotty? We all know you do gayfight.gif
scotty b
QUOTE(Dr Evil @ Aug 29 2011, 05:59 PM) *

Why not just go both ways, Scotty? We all know you do gayfight.gif


dry.gif Ken stuck HIS finger in MY ear unexpectedly and YOU enjoyed watching it. How did I become the switch hitter ? confused24.gif Let's not forget about you jamming your meat grips down Matts shirt either blink.gif
jimkelly
more than anything, i am looking forward to some good stopping power, oh yeah, and some nice suspension, and yeah, and some nicer steering, oh yeah, and and and ....................... you get the point : )

hopefully all the threaded holes on the front of the engine are ok? there is a heli coil in a few for sure. some might need ezlocks or other repair?

thanks for the pics : )
jim

SUNAB914
I'm hooked too. That's all I'm going to say.
BajaXJ92
QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 30 2011, 08:24 AM) *

more than anything, i am looking forward to some good stopping power, oh yeah, and some nice suspension, and yeah, and some nicer steering, oh yeah, and and and ....................... you get the point : )

hopefully all the threaded holes on the front of the engine are ok? there is a heli coil in a few for sure. some might need ezlocks or other repair?

thanks for the pics : )
jim


Jim,

Out of curiousity, do you have a ballpark figure of how much $ you have tied up in the conversion?
jimkelly
it is definitley best to do it right the first time.

i'll be about about $12k into mine after scott is done.

look at this list - not of my car but in general to do a 914 v8.

numbers are a mess and do not include most labor.

$2000 914 roller
$2000 complete sand blast
$2000 metal work
$3000 paint and body
$2000 suspension and brakes parts
$1000 all new weather rubber
$300 front and rear sway bars
$500 fiberglass bumpers
$500 new tires
$500 polished wheels
$3500 complete crate sbc 350
$3000 renegade kit and cooling
$200 elec fuel pump and filter
$300-$600 headers exhaust and mufflers
$290 engman inner long kit
$500-$800 rebuilt trans

$21k+- total cost for narrow body, stock suspension
$26k+- total cost for wide body, 911 front suspension

for wide body add ... $3000 steel flares - or - (about $1500 fiber flares)
$1000 911 front suspension
$200 914 rear drilled for 5 lug
$1000 metal flares (plus install)
$500 5 lug wheels

+interior
+headlight mechanism rebuild
+new glass
+new lenses
+new harnesses - find fabricator
pt_700
in my many years of looking into the sbc conversions (i have a rod simpson kit, uninstalled...), i've read one can shave about 100 lbs. off a stock small block chevy with aluminun intake and heads.

yes, still heavier than the stock motor but, oh the possibilities!

Scott S
Very cool Jim!

After riding in Bobs "Porschev", I will absolutely own a V8 car someday. It was simply fantastic. In fact, in hindsight, I wish I would have waited things out a bit before starting my -6 conversion. I absolutely would have sold my current car to buy the right V8 car.

I dont know what it is about them, but I just love em. I have never had any interest (at all) in any other muscle car/v8's (other than maybe the Pantera) - just the 914 conversions.

Look forward to watching the build! beerchug.gif
Ductech
Just wondering ... and I don't think anyone asked but what about the conversion was done so wrong? you should post up picks of certain aspects of the conversion that are being redone and give reasoning as to why things are being changed....

The cheap sons o bitches wanna know ...
Ductech
Just wondering ... and I don't think anyone asked but what about the conversion was done so wrong? you should post up picks of certain aspects of the conversion that are being redone and give reasoning as to why things are being changed....

The cheap sons o bitches wanna know ...
jimkelly
1- the trans was rebuilt by first timers - and as it turns out it has problems - but functioned pretty decently - can't wait to slush thru the gears whent he project is done.

2- the other thing is that we could never get temps under control with stock water pump - thus had to take the thermostat out - and that is not good.

3- because i designed the engine bar without thinking geometry out, we had to make shift linkage twisted in a way that probably impacted operation.

4- i did not want to get a quite 2 into 1 exhaust custom fabbed until i had all else in its proper locations - meaning where renegade likes things.

5- that said - the car is 40 years old - and the brakes, steering, suspension - are 40 years old - i am sure of that. since these above tasks require the engine be pulled - i figured - hell - lets just do it right - and spend a few extra bucks at renegade.

for me - this is the poor mans 1969 camaro rs/ss and the pantera all rolled up into one : ) but it is not everyone;s cup of tea - and i write this with my pinky up high : )

jim
Ductech
Nice Jim... With out any past knowledge on your car i was wondering what apects of the home spun conversion weren't working for you. I am getting to your point with my subaru. I already want to remove the motor and trans and build a new motor tranny mount brace. The stock water pump notion is interesting as i have similar issues with my suby swap. granted my radiator is currently above the motor in the engine bay. not mounted up front. Renegade offer a better pump for your motor that would better suit the front mounted radiator?

And good on you for going in deep
VaccaRabite
Jim's car was cool before getting reworked. I'm excited to see what it can do after. I actually hope you don't make it too pretty. I loved the rough edges.
Zach
jimkelly
no budget for pretty - the car will look the same when it leaves as it did when it arrived - but don't tell that to the car : ))

primarily only suspension, brakes, steering and engine bay improvements currently in the plan.

jim


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9viaGK6NA7M


--

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ Aug 30 2011, 03:42 PM) *

Jim's car was cool before getting reworked. I'm excited to see what it can do after. I actually hope you don't make it too pretty. I loved the rough edges.
Zach
stewteral
QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 30 2011, 06:52 AM) *

it is definitley best to do it right the first time.

i'll be about about $12k into mine after scott is done.

look at this list - not of my car but in general to do a 914 v8.

numbers are a mess and do not include most labor.

$2000 914 roller
$2000 complete sand blast
$2000 metal work
$3000 paint and body
$2000 suspension and brakes parts
$1000 all new weather rubber
$300 front and rear sway bars
$500 fiberglass bumpers
$500 new tires
$500 polished wheels
$3500 complete crate sbc 350
$3000 renegade kit and cooling
$200 elec fuel pump and filter
$300-$600 headers exhaust and mufflers
$600 engman inner long kit installed
$800 rebuilt trans

$21.7k total cost for narrow body, stock suspension
$26.7k total cost for wide body, 911 front suspension

for wide body add ... $3000 steel flares - or - (about $1500 fiber flares)
$1000 911 front suspension
$200 914 rear drilled for 5 lug
$3000 metal flares $800 and installed properly.
$500 5 lug wheels

+interior
+headlight mechanism rebuild
+new glass
+new lenses
+new harnesses - find fabricator


Hi Jim,

It appears you're doing a great job on your conversion car and willing to invest the $$

A couple questions:
-with only 200 HP, aren't you itching to pump a few more out with a mild cam?
I've heard a rule-of-thumb that the 901 can take 300 - 350 reliably.

-Of course, the next question: do you have any idea how your trans plate was beat up so badly? I'm interested in your experience and what you think is the max safe HP (Torque, actually) that the 901 trans can take.

Also, if you've chewed up a stock plate, and say you want to do things right the first time, what about going for the much stronger after-market bearing plate?

Best,
Terry
stewteral
QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 29 2011, 06:12 PM) *

Jim dropped his car off to have me re-do the V8 ( 307 ) install he and Rod did a few years ago. This time around it will be getting the complete Renegade treatment, a new set of Dr. Sheas handi work. Elephant poly bronze bushings, sway bars, 108 c.v.'s. Some BIG ass sway away axles, and a lot of cleaning / detailing. I got started last friday pulling the engine and trans at the last minute before leaving for Matts party. Dr. Evil was going to do a quilie rebuild prior to the party's start. Once we opened up the box, the truth became known. Unfortunaely Jim's intermediate plate was shot. One of the worst Mikes has seen, so Mike took the stack back home to install a good plate, and do the gear swapping. I got to the shop today to find most of the area was tornm to shreds from Irene, so without power or water I couldn't do much other than tear the engine most of the way down. No way to get the flywheel ff until I have power back on so I can' mount it on an engine stand yet sad.gif I was in such a rush on friday I didn't get any pics of the whole car so you'll just have to deal with what I took today biggrin.gif

I must say, this car IMHO has the PERFECT amount of horsepower. Enought to smoke the tires for the redneck in all of us, BUT it is very controlable, and can take off from a dead stop without lighting the rubber up. BOLTS in a straight line and still hangs onto the apex like a 914 should and sounds like a mythological beast in heat. This is the best of both worlds aktion035.gif I am hooked biggrin.gif

Dr Evil
Aftermarket bearing plate is snake oil. The trans obviously suffered a loss of a forward input shaft bearing in the past that lead to the shaft warping the plate due to someone using it and not paying attention to the signs. All the Al plate would do is allow other stuff to break....like your wallet. I dont need them and I dont use them. I install them when asked, but only after I communicate my disbelief in them happy11.gif
stewteral
QUOTE(scotty b @ Aug 29 2011, 06:12 PM) *

Jim dropped his car off to have me re-do the V8 ( 307 ) install he and Rod did a few years ago. This time around it will be getting the complete Renegade treatment, a new set of Dr. Sheas handi work. Elephant poly bronze bushings, sway bars, 108 c.v.'s. Some BIG ass sway away axles, and a lot of cleaning / detailing. I got started last friday pulling the engine and trans at the last minute before leaving for Matts party. Dr. Evil was going to do a quilie rebuild prior to the party's start. Once we opened up the box, the truth became known. Unfortunaely Jim's intermediate plate was shot. One of the worst Mikes has seen, so Mike took the stack back home to install a good plate, and do the gear swapping. I got to the shop today to find most of the area was tornm to shreds from Irene, so without power or water I couldn't do much other than tear the engine most of the way down. No way to get the flywheel ff until I have power back on so I can' mount it on an engine stand yet sad.gif I was in such a rush on friday I didn't get any pics of the whole car so you'll just have to deal with what I took today biggrin.gif

I must say, this car IMHO has the PERFECT amount of horsepower. Enought to smoke the tires for the redneck in all of us, BUT it is very controlable, and can take off from a dead stop without lighting the rubber up. BOLTS in a straight line and still hangs onto the apex like a 914 should and sounds like a mythological beast in heat. This is the best of both worlds aktion035.gif I am hooked biggrin.gif


Hey Scotty,

A word of caution: DO NOT USE THE CHEAP PLASTIC 90 Degree ELBOWS that Renegade supplies with their kit. From personal experience (happily, not on my car) I have seen that they soften from normal engine heat and then COLLAPSE!

On my car, I scrounged around plumbing houses and found the same parts in BRASS!

Best,
Terry
scotty b
[quote name='stewteral' date='Aug 30 2011, 03:24 PM' post='1532342']
[quote name='jimkelly' post='1532123' date='Aug 30 2011, 06:52 AM']


A couple questions:
-with only 200 HP, aren't you itching to pump a few more out with a mild cam?
I've heard a rule-of-thumb that the 901 can take 300 - 350 reliably.

-Of course, the next question: do you have any idea how your trans plate was beat up so badly? I'm interested in your experience and what you think is the max safe HP (Torque, actually) that the 901 trans can take.

Also, if you've chewed up a stock plate, and say you want to do things right the first time, what about going for the much stronger after-market bearing plate?

Best,
Terry
[/quote]

Terry if you took a ride in Jim's car I doubt you'd feel the need for MORE h.p. With these cars as light as they are, and Jim running stock 4 bolt Fuchs on relatively skinny tires, much more power and you wouldn't get it to hook up. I am going to get Jims car on a dyno before it goes back to him because I am very curious as to the actual h.p. he has. I'm guessing it to be close to 230, maybe even a bit more. I'm also going to give it a shake down run with the go-pro so you guys will have some good video to judge by.
jimkelly
really - i did not do any hard launches - at worst - i put it in gear got rolling - then peddle to the metal - no side stepping the clutch at 4000 rpm - and did not notice the plate problem when we were rebuilding it - probably did not know what to look for - that said, it shifted pretty damn good - but hey - i remember my wife sitting in copilot seat having to use a bungee cord to keep my car in 5th gear on the hwy on route to0 an ecc years ago : )

here is the deal - 901's are cheap an plentiful - if i like the gear ratios i asked evil to do for me - i will get him to build a few that way - as backups.

if i was goi to beat the shit out of my car - i would definitely do a 930 box - but even runnig that inverted is gonna cost $$$ $5000 +-

jim

QUOTE(Dr Evil @ Aug 30 2011, 04:39 PM) *

Aftermarket bearing plate is snake oil. The trans obviously suffered a loss of a forward input shaft bearing in the past that lead to the shaft warping the plate due to someone using it and not paying attention to the signs. All the Al plate would do is allow other stuff to break....like your wallet. I dont need them and I dont use them. I install them when asked, but only after I communicate my disbelief in them happy11.gif

stewteral
[quote name='scotty b' date='Aug 30 2011, 04:47 PM' post='1532356']
[quote name='stewteral' date='Aug 30 2011, 03:24 PM' post='1532342']
[quote name='jimkelly' post='1532123' date='Aug 30 2011, 06:52 AM']


A couple questions:
-with only 200 HP, aren't you itching to pump a few more out with a mild cam?
I've heard a rule-of-thumb that the 901 can take 300 - 350 reliably.

-Of course, the next question: do you have any idea how your trans plate was beat up so badly? I'm interested in your experience and what you think is the max safe HP (Torque, actually) that the 901 trans can take.

Also, if you've chewed up a stock plate, and say you want to do things right the first time, what about going for the much stronger after-market bearing plate?

Best,
Terry
[/quote]



Terry if you took a ride in Jim's car I doubt you'd feel the need for MORE h.p. With these cars as light as they are, and Jim running stock 4 bolt Fuchs on relatively skinny tires, much more power and you wouldn't get it to hook up. I am going to get Jims car on a dyno before it goes back to him because I am very curious as to the actual h.p. he has. I'm guessing it to be close to 230, maybe even a bit more. I'm also going to give it a shake down run with the go-pro so you guys will have some good video to judge by.
[/quote]

You have a point about skinny tires and limited suspension work that 200 HP is comfortable. Watching the video, the car seemed a bit slow to me.

However, in my car I have a built 383 with around 500 HP and EXTENSIVE suspension work, huge brakes, 930 trans and find it very stable when on-track or
out on Mulholland Hwy as I was last Sunday. It's a joy to hammer with!

So, it all comes down to prespective (or HP point of reference) and what one wants to drive.

Best,
Terry
jimkelly
i got a buddy that drag races his 914 with 9" slicks and i think he had 400 hp in his at one time when he was running a 901 trans but they kept blowing up his trans's so he put a billet intermediate plate and built a girdle for it - to hold it together - did not work. finally he installed a powerglide and put FI and turbo on engine.
mepstein
Delaware's only 14 miles wide at it's middle. If Jim goes too fast he'll be in the ocean.
okieflyr
QUOTE(mepstein @ Aug 30 2011, 08:25 PM) *

Delaware's only 14 miles wide at it's middle. If Jim goes too fast he'll be in the ocean.

av-943.gif
okieflyr
Jim you'll really enjoy having the refined mechanicals. It will continue to be a really cool sleeper until they see and hear the exhaust, and then it will be to late for them anyways. first.gif
gandalf_025
Not looking to hijack the thread..
But I remember an old Hot Rod Magazine that had a big article on the 215 V8. They had a graph that showed what bore, stroke and heads to use to bring the 215 up to a 350.
I'm pretty sure they even used aluminum heads.. I have nothing against a SBC.. But I'd be curious about the weight difference of an Aluminum 350..
I have to try to find that magazine..
TargaToy
More pictures!
jimkelly
a less weight v8 - i have no doubt a lesser weight v8 would be sweet - but the bottom line is one can buy a complete crate engine online and the renegade kit online - and bolt the whole thing up ina weekend - that is the upside.

as for handling - because my car had 40 year old brakes, suspension, steering and no sway bars - it was like driving scott's chrysler 300 : ) - maybe worse.

i'll have more to say after i get it back - when it is more like a new stock 914 type 4 on a triple dose of nitro : )

honestly - i would not refuse another 50hp - but 200 more would be way overkill for my purposes. remember in delaware i have to get thru emissions. and i am just driving it - not racing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCRZ-BMejZs

Dr Evil
Jim, what I found in your box was a time bomb, you would be hard pressed to detect it without opening the box up. There was no reason for it to shift poorly. The copious amounts of RTV was nice to deal with dry.gif rolleyes.gif
jimkelly
my tool box has in it - a screw driver, a set of plyers, a roll of duct tape and RTV - do i need anything else : ))
stewteral
[quote name='jimkelly' date='Aug 30 2011, 04:49 PM' post='1532357']
really - i did not do any hard launches - at worst - i put it in gear got rolling - then peddle to the metal - no side stepping the clutch at 4000 rpm - and did not notice the plate problem when we were rebuilding it - probably did not know what to look for - that said, it shifted pretty damn good - but hey - i remember my wife sitting in copilot seat having to use a bungee cord to keep my car in 5th gear on the hwy on route to0 an ecc years ago : )

here is the deal - 901's are cheap an plentiful - if i like the gear ratios i asked evil to do for me - i will get him to build a few that way - as backups.

if i was goi to beat the shit out of my car - i would definitely do a 930 box - but even runnig that inverted is gonna cost $$$ $5000 +-

jim,

I agree with your approach: the 901s can be had for a song and it is WAY cheaper to just replace one than buy a 930 or G50. Since you car is aimed at the "Reasonable" power range, you should have a very reliable ride.

I got a ride in a friend's 914 with a stock 350, so about 300 HP. He was slamming shifts and generally abusing the 901. When I commented that he was being a bit tough on the box, he said "That's ok, I have 2 more under the porch."
...It cracked me up!

Best,
Terry

stewteral
QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 30 2011, 06:32 PM) *

a less weight v8 - i have no doubt a lesser weight v8 would be sweet - but the bottom line is one can buy a complete crate engine online and the renegade kit online - and bolt the whole thing up ina weekend - that is the upside.

as for handling - because my car had 40 year old brakes, suspension, steering and no sway bars - it was like driving scott's chrysler 300 : ) - maybe worse.

i'll have more to say after i get it back - when it is more like a new stock 914 type 4 on a triple dose of nitro : )

honestly - i would not refuse another 50hp - but 200 more would be way overkill for my purposes. remember in delaware i have to get thru emissions. and i am just driving it - not racing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCRZ-BMejZs



Jim,

I thought CA was the worst with smog checking, but here anything '75 or older gets a pass on inspections. This is the ONLY way I could drive my car on the street.

Sorry to hear the your oppressive fascist gov't is suppressing your God given right
to burn messy hydrocarbons!

When it comes to handling, I believe you can expect to find massive understeer!
That's where I started. To balance the car, the answer is stiffening the rear spring rates. Don't worry about going stiffer and ruining your ride comfort. I've had my car at 350# springs (410# per inch wheel rate) and found the ride was still comfortable. My guess would be 250# springs would be a good place to start.

Best,
Terry
jimkelly
i'm hoping that new shocks all around and both sway bars will tighten things up - we'll see - thanks - jim
zymurgist
QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 30 2011, 10:36 PM) *

my tool box has in it - a screw driver, a set of plyers, a roll of duct tape and RTV - do i need anything else : ))


IPB Image
tradisrad
QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 31 2011, 03:50 AM) *

i'm hoping that new shocks all around and both sway bars will tighten things up - we'll see - thanks - jim

You will love the Elephant Bushing; they give a smooth ride and I hope you are installing them on both the front and rear. Have you considered a billet steering coupler while it's apart?
Randal
QUOTE(gandalf_025 @ Aug 30 2011, 06:11 PM) *

Not looking to hijack the thread..
But I remember an old Hot Rod Magazine that had a big article on the 215 V8. They had a graph that showed what bore, stroke and heads to use to bring the 215 up to a 350.
I'm pretty sure they even used aluminum heads.. I have nothing against a SBC.. But I'd be curious about the weight difference of an Aluminum 350..
I have to try to find that magazine..



Not sure whether this link works anymore or not, but here is some basic information.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/ls1ls6.html

"2001 Totally Dressed Engine Weight"

Auto - 457.6
Manual (LS1 & LS6) - 497.2
jimkelly
elephant - yes - front and rear

doughnut - not billet - but i did get a solid delrin one from
http://www.tangerineracing.com/
and it is going in : )
http://www.tangerineracing.com/SteeringUpgrades.htm
jim

--

QUOTE(tradisrad @ Aug 31 2011, 06:52 AM) *

QUOTE(jimkelly @ Aug 31 2011, 03:50 AM) *

i'm hoping that new shocks all around and both sway bars will tighten things up - we'll see - thanks - jim

You will love the Elephant Bushing; they give a smooth ride and I hope you are installing them on both the front and rear. Have you considered a billet steering coupler while it's apart?
Eric_Shea
You know how most people drill 914-4 hubs to 5-lug? Jim drilled 911 hubs to 4-lug. Gotta love it! thumb3d.gif
jimkelly
just come right out and say it : )

JIM HAS ISSUES : ))

i'm sticking narrow body and 4 lug fuchs - so i can lay low - keep costs down.

when it is all done - it is getting a full sized muffler to be real quite - shsssh.

jim

a recent pic...
budk
popcorn[1].gif
Eric_Shea
QUOTE
JIM HAS ISSUES : ))


Not at all... I think you've got yourself a fairly robust drive line.
JmuRiz
Sounds like a cool setup to me...I'll be interested to hear your impressions of the suspension and steering work.
Ductech
Eric you crack me up. four lug from five lug lol-2.gif . But maybe there is something to not flamboyantly wearing your 914 wealth on your shoulders. A narrowed normal looking car is just the ticket. hell the paint even further's the notion of don't look at me I'm nothing special thing Jim has going.
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