Brett W
Jul 16 2004, 08:41 PM
Why no just take a standard 915-930 tranny and flip it up side down? This should take the hassels out of flipping the ring gear, you would have to come up with pump and a shift linkage though?
skline
Jul 17 2004, 07:20 AM
I dont know enough about it yet but I am looking into it really closely. I talked to a guy the other day that told me to call Scott at Renegade Hybrids and talk to him about it. From what he said, it is very expensive to convert a 930 trans to work correctly with a V8 car. He said once you are done though it would last for ever and be good up to about 700 HP. The cost he said was close to 10k for the transmission and conversion. There has to be a less expensive route but without more research, I dont know yet. I would suggest calling Scott at Renegade and talking to him about it. He also said that he has been running a RH converted 901 on his LS1 for 4 years without any problems and the cost for that transmission was only around 2500. Maybe a better option if you are just running a street car.
Mueller
Jul 17 2004, 07:58 AM
Brad has or had an adaptor plate for running an upside 930 box.... (I think???)
Brett W
Jul 17 2004, 06:39 PM
I want the baddest street car known to man yet I have to be concerned everytime I drop the hammer whether or not the tranny will go up in smoke when those big bad 335-40/ZR17s hook up.
I will definiteley run either a 930 or a 915 box, but why not maybe a G50 or something like that? Is that a better option? I have no interest in running a 901 gear box, will never be able to handle my driving with a 600hp V8. 901s are for budget swaps or 4 cylinders.
The adapter is not the problem but I was wondering if anyone has ever done it.
dan10101
Jul 17 2004, 08:51 PM
While we're talking about V8 trannies. how about these?
http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Transmi...n/5000/5000.aspThis looks surprisingly like my 944 trans.
http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/photos/.../01E/trans.htmlhttp://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/photos/...cars/01E/v8infoFrom Pors-chev.com
QUOTE
Many GT40 replicas in Europe (and they have use data after several years)use
the UN1-013 Renault transaxle (even for track use) with reportedly good
results. Coupled with a larger dia. input shaft, the bellhousing is larger
and more suitable for V8 (Ford in this case) adapting, as a they use a Ford
V6 flywheel and a nice sized clutch. Also, the ratio's in the UN1-013 are
much more favorable right off the shelf. There ought to be plenty of cheap
Eagle Medallion transaxles out there. Check out the below:
and...
http://fiberfab.us/transaxles.html
LS6/914
Jul 18 2004, 09:07 AM
Installed a 915 in place of a 901 in a clients v8 car. Custom shift cable assembly install is fairly simple. A WEVO unit would be better if it becomes available. The cost of the 915 will be upwards of 7-8K. It will still have a poor 2nd gear ratio for track use (turn 3a & 3b @ Pacific Raceway). Lar
BIGKAT_83
Jul 18 2004, 05:34 PM
QUOTE(Brett W @ Jul 17 2004, 04:39 PM)
I want the baddest street car known to man yet I have to be concerned everytime I drop the hammer whether or not the tranny will go up in smoke when those big bad 335-40/ZR17s hook up.
I will definiteley run either a 930 or a 915 box, but why not maybe a G50 or something like that? Is that a better option? I have no interest in running a 901 gear box, will never be able to handle my driving with a 600hp V8. 901s are for budget swaps or 4 cylinders.
The adapter is not the problem but I was wondering if anyone has ever done it.
Got some pictures at home of a 930 installed upsidedown in a 914 it looks like it worked good for the shift linkage also.
Looks like the car needs to be real low for the axles to run at a fairly strait angle.
I'll post these as soon as I return home.
Bob
Brett W
Jul 18 2004, 10:08 PM
Please post the pics. I would like to see them.
The car that is in the early design stages is a LS2 powered 914 with a dual a-arm front and rear suspension. The chassis that I am starting with is all rusty so I am going to cut the front and rear halves off the car and build subframes that bolt on. The engine and tranny and rear suspension will be housed in tubular subframe that can be removed or modified as necessary. I have the liberty of using any transaxle I want because I am starting from a blank sheet.
This winter will be spent fixing my current four cylinder car, finishing the turbo honda and doing some design work with the chassis and suspension for V8 car. I hope to start cutting some tubes in the spring.
LS6/914
Jul 18 2004, 10:25 PM
LS2 ? At GM we had a LS1 and LS6. We had LT1, LT4, and the brain damaging LT5. I do not recall a LS2.
dan10101
Jul 18 2004, 10:31 PM
Oh please, can you tell me where to get info on the differences between these engines? GM for dummies... Even though we're building a standard SBC that I'm familiar with, I still am in the dark on the newer ones.
Sorry to get off track, I'm very interested in Trans options and if any of the ones I posted will work.
Thanks,
Dan
LS6/914
Jul 18 2004, 10:46 PM
Your local Chevy or speed shop should have the Chevrolet Power & GM Performance Parts books. These will give you a ton of info however they are weak on LT4 & 5 info.
dan10101
Jul 18 2004, 11:36 PM
I'm just looking for general info. Like what year they were built, when the blocks/heads/etc changed.
I just figured there would be a site out there that had that. Haven't found it yet.
Thanks,
Dan
Scott Carlberg
Jul 19 2004, 12:12 AM
QUOTE(dan10101 @ Jul 18 2004, 09:31 PM)
Oh please, can you tell me where to get info on the differences between these engines? GM for dummies... Even though we're building a standard SBC that I'm familiar with, I still am in the dark on the newer ones.
Bell & Gaines Machine Shop
1117 7th Street
Modesto Ca
521-9400
Brett W
Jul 19 2004, 05:58 AM
The LS2 is the new version of the LS1. 415 hp, 15lbs lighter than the LS1. Should show up this summer. Not sure if this is just a crate motor or an actual production motor but I read about it a few months ago in Car Craft.
Mueller
Jul 19 2004, 09:58 AM
Brett,
Contact Ed Ducey (propicer), he is a partner or something like that for the West Coast built Ultima cars...
I copied this from the official Ultima website:
QUOTE
Which engine should I use in my Ultima?
The factory has designed the Ultima to accept the small block Chevrolet V8 from 300bhp to over 600bhp.
The factory does not recommend and cannot offer any support to customers fitting alternative engines.
Which gearbox do I use?
The Ultima has been designed to accept the Porsche G50 5/6 speed or the Getrag 6 speed in standard form. Apart from changing the breather location no other modifications are recommended.
How strong are the transaxles?
The Porsche transaxle is superbly engineered by Porsche and has an exceptional weight/strength ratio.
The Porsche transaxle fitted to an Ultima has been used successfully with engines up to 600bhp.
If you could get Ed or someone to take a few measurements of a chevy V8/G50 combo, you should be able to figure out real fast whether or not it'll fit or where you'd run into problems.
i have no idea if the box is upside down or not, the Ultima webiste does mention that the vents need to be modified on the G50 box, so I would be willing to bet that they run the box upside down. For your application and the amount of cutting/modifications you'd be doing, it should be no big deal at all if the trunk floor needs "tweaking" due to the larger and upside down transmission.
bondo
Jul 19 2004, 10:43 AM
QUOTE(dan10101 @ Jul 18 2004, 10:36 PM)
I'm just looking for general info. Like what year they were built, when the blocks/heads/etc changed.
I just figured there would be a site out there that had that. Haven't found it yet.
Thanks,
Dan
http://www.hpsalvage.com/lt1.htmThis has some good info on LT1 and LS1, which are the common newer engines. As far as I know the engines with numbers other than 1 are higher performance versions that are somewhat rare in comparison.
turbo914v8
Jul 19 2004, 07:56 PM
Hi guys, super lurker turbo Paul here. I have not heard anyone mention the Pantera ZF box as a great alternative to the other gearboxes mounted to a v8 in the 914. Many others and I have gone this root with great success. There are many Pantera's out there with 700, 800, 900HP big and small blocks mated to the ZF living a long life. Because the Pantera was designed to work with the v8 the gear ratios are perfect. As a matter of fact you can get any gear ratio you like. There are also a few v8 powered 914 running the ZF as well. Just my attempt to add to a great discussion.
Regards,
Turbo Paul
aircooledboy
Jul 19 2004, 07:59 PM
So, what $ does a Pantera box go for???
dan10101
Jul 19 2004, 08:16 PM
QUOTE(bondo @ Jul 19 2004, 08:43 AM)
Bondo,
Just what I was looking for
Thanks!
dan10101
Jul 19 2004, 08:20 PM
QUOTE(turbo914v8 @ Jul 19 2004, 05:56 PM)
out there with 700, 800, 900HP big and small blocks mated to the ZF living a long life. Because the Pantera was ..
Is that ZF the same as this one?
http://fiberfab.us/transaxles.html
cha914
Jul 19 2004, 08:38 PM
So, what does a decent used 930 box go for anyway? Not with any tricks done...just known good used. And on the same note, whats the cheapest you could get one for? Say, still usable but needs a rebuild. I have a rear engine v8 project in my future, and the tranny is still the missing key, space isn't an issue, so I figure I could go 930, or ??? will need to handle lotsa torque ~400ish...
Thanks,
Tony
Mueller
Jul 19 2004, 08:45 PM
oh yea, the ZF is a
great choice, if you can afford one:
STARTING bid of $5000.00another one, STARTING at $8750...ouchI noticed both are claiming brand new, so I'd venture to say that a decent used one is in the 2K range
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 09:28 PM
I buy 930 boxes in this area with LSD's for around 1500$. Normally second gear sync's are toast. It was very popular in our area for shops to yank the 930 box and install 915's so we have them floating around this area.
Scott at RH does not run a 901 box. Hasnt in a few years now. He runs a 930box.
The G50 would be fine if you didnt have to run 20inch wheels/tires with it to get decent ratio's out of it (it isnt that bad.. but.. 17's are almost required)
I like the 930 box. Sure it is more work.. figure 7500-8000k for everything.
B
dakotaewing
Jul 19 2004, 10:07 PM
Guys,
I have seen a lot of talk about the Getrag 6 speed boxes being used on the european GT40 relica's, as well as the Audi 1E 6 speed box, both mounted to Ford 302's and 351's.... Does anyone happen to know if either of these boxes = the Boxter S box under a different name?
Thom
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 10:11 PM
Tom,
I have seen the Audi box used.. but I have NO pics of it. Can you dig up some pics for us ?? (good seeing you in Texas BTW)
B
dakotaewing
Jul 19 2004, 10:23 PM
Ok,
Lets see if I can do this....
This is the Audi 01E box, supposedly the same as the 968 box, according to this website...
http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/photos/...s/01E/ind3.html
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 10:26 PM
Problem with the Porsche box:
NO provision for a starter. It was mounted to the bellhousing up on the engine.
B
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 10:27 PM
I could see the Audi box working... but what about the ratios ??
B
Rusty
Jul 19 2004, 10:32 PM
B,
Sent you mail.
-LB
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 10:35 PM
I guess that means I should check my email at home...
B
dakotaewing
Jul 19 2004, 10:39 PM
Andyrew
Jul 19 2004, 10:40 PM
Would cutting a 944 turbo trani and a 901 trani, then splicing the housing from the 901 to the 944 turbo, work Brad? Ehh ehh?
Your back... Glad your back! Have fun? (kiddin, I saw the GT thread...)
Rusty
Jul 19 2004, 10:40 PM
QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Jul 20 2004, 08:35 AM)
I guess that means I should check my email at home...
B
LOL... I don' t know where you are. Should I use another address other than HPH?
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 10:43 PM
I just barely have time to read right now.. you sent it to the right place.
Andrew.. too much work for little return. Look at what that guy went through to have a Boxster box mated to his aircooled 6 cylinder.
B
Andyrew
Jul 19 2004, 10:47 PM
But its only labor....
I dont know what work he did, I only saw pics that I barely understood.. and a large price.
My 901 wont be very happy with me for very long...
Have a
for me B, take it easy.
Andrew
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 10:54 PM
Havent had any beer since Texas...LOL had to drink Miller Lite with my buddies.. one night we stopped at 9 pitchers between 6 of us. I quickly realised how "Lite" the beer was..
B
Andyrew
Jul 19 2004, 10:59 PM
Ahh the wonders of beer.
So when DID you come back? Fri?
Brad Roberts
Jul 19 2004, 11:01 PM
I was physically back at work on Wednesday last week.
B
Mueller
Jul 20 2004, 08:02 AM
QUOTE
Would cutting a 944 turbo trani and a 901 trani, then splicing the housing from the 901 to the 944 turbo, work Brad? Ehh ehh?
to do this properly, you'd want to have fixtures made so that when welding, everything is lined up, the fixtures alone could cost a small fortune unless you get access to a machine shop. Then there is the question of how compatible the two different materials are, both transmissions have had years to get oil soaked into them which will make welding a little harder.
Is the input shaft on the 944 gear box the same as the 901 box?? I'd imagine it being a bigger diameter, this means you'd be "stuck" using 944 clutch parts, which could be good or bad depending on how much they cost and how much torque they'll take...I'm guessing HP/torque wise they'll be fine due to all the high HP 951s running around.
For doing a boxster transmission > aircooled engine, I'd be willing to help or make the needed fixtures for free if i can get a completed transmission out of the deal
turbo914v8
Jul 20 2004, 07:15 PM
From what I have seen it’s a toss up between the Pantera ZF and the Porsche 930, in terms of power handling ability and cost. To have a 930 gearbox modified to work in a 914 ready to install will run you about 9,000 including the cost of the gearbox and you only get 4 gears. The Pantera needs no internal modification to be used in a 914, just need to purchase bell housing to mate to desired motor, and you will have 5 gears for 9,000. My choice was the Pantera ZF.
Regards,
Turbo Paul.
neo914-6
Jul 20 2004, 10:19 PM
Here's more comparative info....
Mid-Engine Tranny SelectionFelix
dan10101
Jul 20 2004, 11:06 PM
Felix,
Thanks for the links. After reading that I really want to explore the Audi 5000 Transaxle.
QUOTE
The 1984-1987 Audi 5000S and 1985-1988 5000CS Turbo came with a Getrag front-wheel-drive transaxle that mounts the engine longitudinally. It is relatively light-weight at just 111 pounds.
This transaxle is almost exactly the same as the one used in the 1985-1990 Porsche 944. The 944 input shaft is longer, though, so the Kennedy Engineering Products adapter won't work with the 944 transaxle. In the 944, the front-mounted engine is connected to the rear-mounted transaxle by a drive shaft. By distributing the weight, the 944 has great balance. The new Corvettes are laid out in the same manner.
The only difference between the Audi 5000S and the 5000 CS Turbo transaxles is the gear ratios. The 5000 CS Turbo has wider gear ratio spacing that makes it better matched to a V8 for this conversion, but either transaxle will work. Either transaxle is readily available for about $250 used. Since it is front-wheel-drive with the engine ahead of the transaxle, it does not require flipping of the ring gear and pinion that the Porsche 911 model 915 transaxle does. The Kennedy Engineering Products V8 engine adapter, custom flywheel, 470 ft/lb pressure plate, clutch and starter costs $1092 (January 31, 2003).
The Audi 5000 front frame is simply too flimsy to be successfully adapted to the Montage frame in the manner described for a Toronado/Eldorado on this website. The McPherson strut front suspension would also be dificult to adapt to the rear of the Montage.
It has been calculated that with a few modifications, this tranaxle can handle 400-500 horsepower. Some Porsche 944 performance transaxle parts may be interchangable. The 944 does have a reputation for a weak ring and pinion, so stouter racing parts with a taller ratio would be a good match for the V8 conversion.
The shift mechanism is on the top and side of the transaxle making for an easy adaptation to a mid-engine arrangement. Also the clutch release mechanism is hydraulic so no specially designed mechanical link is required. A custom suspension will still have to be built, but at least the project can be designed around a light-weight transaxle with great torque capacity and extremely low initial cost. These advantages make this an excellent choice for this project.
The same transaxle is used in the 1984-1987 Audi 5000S Quatro and the 1985-1988 Audi 5000CS Turbo Quatro but with a rear output shaft. This makes the rear of the transaxle slightly longer, but it should adapt just the same. Nothing will be attached to the rear output shaft, though, and it will turn, but all the power and torque will go to the half-shafts. The CS Turbo Quatro transaxle retains the wider gear ratios of the CS Turbo transaxle.
It's basically the same transaxle as my 944 and 951. I'll buy the fact that the NA transaxle may be weak, but I can attest that the 951 trans will take the abuse. So changing some internal parts may be in order to really be able to flog it, but even without that, it should handle more torque than the 901 with better gear ratios.
I need to do some more research on gear ratios, but with those trans available at pick-n-pull for less than $150 out the door, I can see it worth looking at.
Ok, so shoot me down, who has tried it and found it to be junk?
Where are the weak spots? How can we fix the problem areas?
Otmar
Jul 20 2004, 11:11 PM
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 20 2004, 07:02 AM)
Is the input shaft on the 944 gear box the same as the 901 box??
No, but it's the same spline as a 930 box.
Brad does a real nice job of flipping the 930's from what I've seen.
If you're into more experimentation and less cost, you can do what I did. Run the motor backwards. I believe you can get boat parts to run the V8 in the opposite direction.
neo914-6
Jul 20 2004, 11:47 PM
Dan,
Glad my late night web surfing helped someone! Some info may be flawed as I know Harry runs gobs of torque through his ZF:
QUOTE
Kennedy Engineering Products rates the ZF transaxle as only a 5 on a scale of 10 for overall strength and torque capability. This only ranks equal to the lowly Porsche 914's 901 model transaxle (when not using first gear) and below the Porsche 911's 915 model transaxle.
Felix
JWest
Jul 21 2004, 06:23 AM
QUOTE(Otmar @ Jul 21 2004, 12:11 AM)
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 20 2004, 07:02 AM)
Is the input shaft on the 944 gear box the same as the 901 box??
No, but it's the same spline as a 930 box.
But the problem with a 944 box is that the shaft ends at the splines - there is no smooth extension to insert into a pilot bearing. This is because the 944 has a shaft that clamps onto the transmission input shaft and runs forward to the clutch - which is at the front of the car behind the engine.
The Audio 5000 box (maybe with some 944T internals and the trans oil pump?) solves this problem.
skline
Jul 21 2004, 07:49 AM
Well if you guys are thinking of trying an Audi 5000 transmission, why not go for an automatic trans from a 5000. Have you ever seen a true automatic in a 914? Think if that as a concept, no more burned up clutches from sitting in traffic. I was thinking about it myself and I have heard it can be done. They have done it to a VW van over here in Santa Ana so why couldnt it be done in a 914 with a V8? I think it would be cool.
andys
Jul 21 2004, 10:10 AM
With the Audi model 016 gearbox, you will not be able to swap out the right parts from a 951 to get the good ratio's and strengthened parts. The input shaft and first gear are a one piece design, so you're forced to stay with the Audi 1st (3.60:1) which means you don't get the heat treated 951 1st (3.50:1). The 2nd thru 5th ratio's are very close to the same, so no need to swap there. The R&P ratio is where you gain the advantage with the taller geared 951. Though un-substantiated, apparently the differential carrier bearings are larger on the 951 than on the Audi, so they will not swap.......I recalll reading that the 951 racers swap out the R&P for a NA 944 R&P to get a lower ratio, so perhaps there's a chance for interchangeability (Any 951 experts or racers out there that can verify this?). For the cost, I would think it easiest to simply stay with the Audi 016, though the net 5th gear ratio is about the same a a stock 901. Audi 016 model 3U is the only one that has a taller 5th, but was only available in Europe. Good luck.
Andy
Otmar
Jul 21 2004, 10:25 AM
Slightly OT here,
Anyone know if you can flip the ring and pinion in the Audi 016 box?
I'm thinking of it for the
Stretch Van.
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