I know that there are some people on here that are lawyers and insurance adjusters and I was hoping that some of you could help me.
The story:
I was exiting the freeway (805N to Balboa West) when a guy with a little nissan truck decided that he wanted to be where I was in the exit lane. He merged into me and totaled my bike. Winesses say that I got 10' of air, but I don't remember that part. There is no question of who was at fault and his company has accepted total responsability. The adjuster is coming over on wednesday to look at my personal effects that were destroyed/damaged during my dancing lesson with the truck. Items include: Watch, cell phone, boots, helmet, jacket, and pants. Nothing that crazy, and I am not claiming to have been waring a Rolex.
The problem (bend over) :
The adjuster is already talking about "depreciated value" for my effects. I have been hit by one RV, one car, and now a truck and I have never heard of an adjuster offereing depreciated value for a helmet, pants, watch, etc. How the hell do you figure out the depreciated value?

(hypothetical)Him, "well, from what is left of your pants, I can tell that they were purchased two years ago (even though they are the same type available today and are not that old). So, well figure $40 as the original price minus $21 a year since jeans are a work type of clothing, leaving you owing us $2 for hitting you <_< "

My effects are not expensive ones, and I would like to just get enough to replace with the exact same make and model. Is this fair? What is my recourse if I do not agree?

I also did not go to the emergency room as I am pretty knowledgable about emergency medicine and assesed my self. I did this for many reasons; I dont believe in clogging the ER for superficial wounds that I KNOW how to treat, I dont believe in going to the ER to get a bigger settlement, I had no intention of getting a lawyer to sue for "three times the amount". I like to be responsable and to only collect on what I am due. I am getting the feeling that I should have sued the crap out of them.

With not going to an ER it seems that I am not going to get any pain and suffering either. All I want is the $425 that my salvage cost me, not thousands. Do I have a claim for pain and suffering? I was messed up for a little over a week, and was missing part of my hide, but that is almost all grown back by now.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-Mike

Stand Firm. Don't let them try to bully you, that is what they are doing. They will do things to try lead you where they want to go. Know what you want/need and don't go too far. Remember, it could have been a lot worse for them, they'll be happy (in the long run) to get out without any medical bills. Don't settle until you know that you really aren't hurt.

Remember, you didn't do anything wrong, their client did.

the purpose of insurance is to 'make you whole' by replacing what you had.
it sucks that you got hit (i know that intersection well...) and i'm glad you're okay.

do you think you should be compensated at new prices for used stuff ? (even in California?)

take the difference between what you can get (go ahead and play hardball with them, they expect it and you'll have to...) and what you think it's worth and deduct it at the end of the year as an uninsured loss.

you can go ahead and press for "full replacement value." you'll probably have to say you'll have to sue their insured for the difference, which they'll have to defend (at great cost) and they've already admitted fault and responsibility so what do they have to gain ?

still - you don't get a new car just because someone crashes into your old one ...

Listen to their offer. If it is fair - take it. If not - get a lawyer.
Be careful what you say - they will twist your words and try to use it against you.

Rule #1 - Don't sign anything if you are not 100% satisfied.

Good Luck,
John
(Former bike rider, now car racer. It's safer.)

Tell him what you want for your loss of personal stuff and stand firm. If you lost income for the week you were layed up they owe you for that too. They should add in some $$ for your pain. If he starts to screw with you tell him the discussion is over and your lawyer will contact them for full damages and loss of enjoyment of life. Then tell him his superiors will be real happy that he could have settled a simple claim without litigation, but he chose not to.

Hey Mike,

Bad luck bud. Glad you weren't seriously hurt or worse. I just wanted you to know that as one of the lawyer types around here, I was not ignoring your question. Problem is, what you can and cannot collect for varies dramatically from state to state. I was hoping a cali lawyer would jump in here. Heck, I'm not sure there are any in the club. Any way, here goes:

The insurance company is generally only required to compensate you for the value of the things destroyed as they existed at the time they were destroyed. Thus, you may only get them to pay you $30 for a 2 year old pair of pants that cost $50 new. As far as the personal injury part, you may have hosed yourself a bit by being your own "treating doctor." Without documentation of the nature and extent of your injuries, you have created "proof problems" for yourself, and bean counter insurance guy will know that. We hear alot in the media about the run away jury sytem these days and how plaintiffs are getting these lottery sized verdicts in personal injury cases. Truth is, jurors read newspapers too, and for every newsworthy goofey big verdict, there are probably 500-1000 cases where plaintiffs don't even get awards that cover their out of pocket expenses. The pedulum of public perception, and thus jury verdicts, is clearly swinging the other way, and insurance companies know that. Consequently, they are increasingly ballsy about saying "here is what we will give you, take it or leave it."

My belief is that in a low dollar case like yours, your best bet is to spend time thinking about it, and have a number in mind that you will accept, and can live with. If it is unreasonable, the adjuster will quickly take you for a nut, and that will effectively end the negotiation. Remember this is a negotiation. You really are best starting out with a number slightly higher than your actual bottom line. While you want him to think about the expense of litigating over a few hundred buck difference versus settling, he will do his best to get you thinking the same way. He knows that an attorney would take a percentage of the settlement if you have to resort to that, and it will likely cost more than a few hundred bucks. The question is whether an attorney can help you get more from the insurance company so that you still come out ahead. That is often not an easy question to answer. Do your level best to not get defensive or personal with the adjuster, and calmly explain why that is the number it will take to settle the case. If you are too far apart, you will proabably have to see a lawyer, so be very careful not to get sucked into a discussion about the facts of the case. He will try to use any admissions you make against you if the case goes farther. So if he throws facts at you that you disagree with, don't fall for the trap of then laying out in detail your version of the event. Make it clear that you disagree, but leave it at that. They do this for a living, and my well be trying to get you to say things that hurt your position later. Not all adjusters do this by any means, but some do.

BTW, no part of my practice involves personal injury cases, and I am not trying to grind an axe here. I do have to deal with insurance companies regularly though. I am in various court houses all day every day, I read lots of lawyer stuff, and the trend of insurance companies taking a harder line on settlements is an easy one to spot. I'm not sure if any of this will be of any real help to you, but at least you will have a basic idea of what is headed your way when you met with this adjuster.

Hope this helps some.


Chris

Listen to what he says, counter offer......then.....

Tell him to get fucked and enter a complaint with the State Insurance Commisioner.

The other guy is at fault. Case closed. You can say no without a lot of loss. The insurance company guy can't. He has to blink first, and he knows it. Of course, you do need to be reasonable about it.

Since were all just standing around at the work bench shooting the bull, here goes.

First, Insurance claims reps are not trained to mess with your head. You've been watching too many commercials for the Ambulance chasers. They are however trained to use common sense. Did you wear those pants since you purchased them? Was that watch still in the Timex Box from Walmart? It's common sense. You've received some value, benifit and use from the personal property that was damaged during your accident. The claims rep from the other vehicle owners carrier owes you the value of used property. The value must be fair and based on real world number. There is a government military deprecation schedule used by most claims reps. These are standard tables no hocus pocus.

You may have a choice to file a claim with your Home Owners Insurance for your personal property. Check to see if you have a named peril that will cover the personal property under your own insurance. Most home owners insurance has a personal property replacement cost coverage. But I'm not sure there is a named peril that will cover the damage.

BTW: do you really think a claims rep gives a crap if you call a lawyer! Sometimes that's a gift. Then they don't have to deal with someone that has an issue they don't seem to be able to get past. I wish I had a nickle for every time I heard that... You people forget we hear that twice a week. We deal with people that are angry, depressed, and looking for a fight everyday. When we deal with attorney's we often have pleasant conversations about their planes, and beach front property your paying for. And they laugh about it. Really....

Be upfront with the claims rep. tell him about your injury. Tell him what you stated here. Your not out to pork anyone but you had some degree of pain for a period and your willing to settle with them directly. They may offer you a "G" or something for your signature to go away. That's fair...

This is nothing more than a rambling bunch of words strung together loosely resembling sentences. Blah blah blah....

One of their favorite techniques is the waiting game... especially if your daily driver is crunched. I suspect it's the same game for personal effects. It costs them nothing to try and wait you out, and it can only add pressure to you.

Stand tough. Good luck.

-Rusty

It is gonna be hard for us to determine how long I have owned such things. I think that if there is a market for an item used then it makes more sence when they depreciate an item, but if I take exquisite care of, say, my watch and then I am no longer able to use it and it is "too old" to be truly compensable then how fair is it that "oh well" you lose. I just want my stuff. I want my life as close to how it was before this dumb ass hit me. No more, no less.

Rich, you think I could ask for a grand? Sounds nice.

I wasn't wearing anything extravagant, thats what bothers me. All of this trouble and he may save $150-200 tops, but it is the difference between me getting a replacement or nothing. Kind of penile. I dont think that the new for used swap should be universal, just for the smaller ticket items. Arguing over a pair of pants seems to me to be extrordinarily petty.

Thanks for all of your comments. Since the items are cheap, could I sue the company in small claims? No lawyers fees.

Ok, heres the scoop. The guy that hit you owes you replacements for your property. His insurance company, thru contract with him will pay you for him, else you sue him.

One key here is replacement of the damaged property. Ask the insurance person to find used replacements, in the same condition yours were in prior to the accident. Tell him/her that you will expect him/her to deliever the items to you, else you will charge a fee of (pick a good hourly rate, such as your own wages) $xxx/hour to locate the replacement items for sale used.
That will be the tuff one for the insurance to accept, but part of the replacement value is YOUR TIME TO FIND THE ITEMS. Seeing as it is more time consumming to find second hand replacements than just buying new, you should advise the agent that he / she will be saving the insurance company money by buying new. Also you should charge then your time even for new itmes. You need time taken to go to stores, be compensated at least 33 cents per mile driving to stores also.

Write an itemized list, list where each store is where you will need to find the new replacement watch, helment, etc... estimate driving distance, and time to drive (use msn maps and print it out for the agent), and then estimate time to shop for the items. Add it all up, and present your bill to the agent. If agent dissagress, pull out a second bill for used items, listing local thrift shops, and estimate the time to find replacement items at ten times that to buy new, as you will need to search thrift shops, go back on different days, and hope that what you need will be there. This second bill will be much higher, and is sure to make the agent whince (I always love this part)

Sock it to them, they are lowballing you, taking you for a fool, that is their tactic, so you need to ratchet it up a notch. Send the demand for payment letter to the agent, you might get results, and you are 100% entitled to be reimbursed for your travel time, shopping time, and transportation expense to purchase replacements, new or used. Just is used will take more time to find, hence the overall cost will be greater.

They probably thought they could get away with this on you becuase you were basically kind to them, and have no lawyer. So much repayment for your kindness.

Also see a lawyer about personel injury, which is handeled seperatly from property damage. You can make a claim, but i'd do it right away, before you fully heal up, and have no more bruises, as bruises can be documneted by a doctor.

The property damage can be settled usually with you filing a small claims suit aginst the guy that hit you (list him, not the insurance company as defendant, esle the case may be thrown out, be sure to include the registered owner of the car that hit you if other than the driver, this is also very important.

Small calims usally cost $25 to file (and you get that back if you win) and have a $5000 limit on awards.

First get the itemized demand letter to the agent, list all your expenses needed to shop for the goods. If agent still doen't get it, then tell him/her you will be filing in small claims aginst their insured.
If that doesn't work, then file. have all your paper work together for the judge, dress well, be on time, be very polite, and have your case all together. It will be you aginst the guy that hit you. You will NOT be up aginst the insurance agent, or insurance lawyers, that is not allowed in small claims, It is you aginst they defendant, no lawyers may make any presentation, nor even be up in front with the judge (if the other guy does not show, you win!!)

Most times, the insurance will settle with you once they relize you are going to court, as they usally have an agent in the court audince, and depending on policy pay the defendant to attend so it does cost them more to go to court, even if they do not participate in the actually hearing

I did one small claims over my car, the agent would not back down, I called two days before trial, and they said no to my offer. Called one day before trial, and reminded them that i would win, but would accept $50 less if they settled right now, just to save me time going to court. They agreed, had the check in my hand two hours later. ($3000)

anyway, glad you are alive, bikes and cars can be a nasty thing when they collide. (happened to me once broke my back, and killed two of my cousins.)

PS there has been some advice about insurance being required only to give replacement item value. This is not true in California, unless it is in a contract with you and your own insurance policy. The bottom line is the other guys insurance policies and rules do not apply to you, they apply only to the guy thet hit you if he makes a claim on his own policy.
The law provides you to have your items replaced. That means replaced, delivered to you, with no time of yours lost traveling nor shopping. If they cannot deliever to you replacements, then you have everyright to expenses in time a travel to obtain replacements. This is fact, this is the law, and this is what the insurance company will lie about to you. Just stick too you guns on this, you will wear them down, not the other way around as they are trying to do to you. By bringing in small claims, you have set a date, a date after which they can no longer wear you down past, so this forces them to settle. This gives you the upper hand. ( without going totally overboard, make the small calims amount as high as possible This gives the insurance company a little wiggle room to negotiate with you prior to a hearing date. After all the insurance company will sooner settle if they get you to back down a little on your demand, kind of like pricing at swap meets, ask more than you will accept, and negotiate from there
Agent tells boss, hey this guy is suing for $1000, but I talked him donw to $900, this make the agent look good to his boss, but unknown to Mr. Jr Agent is that you would have happily settled for $500, but you made the demand for $1000, leaving wiggle room for Mr. Jr. Agent to boost to his boss.


dave

this is where apprasials come in handy, or if you had a personal inventory of your stuff for insurance purposes. yeah, i don't have a list like that either, but i know i should...

the standard that's typically applied in law is the 'reasonable person' standard -- a reasonable person would say "Sheesh - the guy got hit - give him a hundred bucks for a new watch" - which is one reason why insurance companies love to wait you out and very rarely actually go to trial.

they aren't set up to do what they claim to do, which is just make you whole after a loss. you'd think it would be simple, but you have to understsand how the insurance companies work - they take in the money insureds pay in as premiums - and then they just keep it.

(my ex- got rear-ended, and although the at-fault driver's insurance paid to have the car fixed, she had a knee injury (torn PCL) that required arthroscopic inspection and - since she was not a profesional athlete and PCL reconstruction was not indicated, a brace. it took 3 years, the intervention of one of California's top bad-faith litigators, and a courthouse-steps settlement for them to agree to do what they could have done 3 years earlier and avoided all the legal fees. but an insurance company's on-retainer law firm is not going to advise their client to settle early - not when they're billing $250/hr until they do!)

theoretically, you could sue in small claims but the problem with suing corporations is that there's no "one" to sue. i doubt this system, set up by trial lawyers in the legislature, works that way by accident ... you could find someone to take the case on contingency, maybe, but the value is so low it'd be hard getting someone interested. is there a police report ? do you have witness statements ?

when you said 'bike' earlier, do you actually mean a bicycle (in which case i'm a little confused, because i thought i understood you to say you were exiting the freewar) or is it a motorcycle in which case there may be compensable damage to that?

you are under no obligation to accept any settlement offer you do not consider fair, waiving all future rights -- but they are under no obligation to keep raising the offer until you do, and in the meanwhile - they have the money.

you may have to escalate to a district supervisor type who can see past the low-level stuff and simply authorise payment, because at some point they will realise that they will lose in court (by which time he'll be retired and it won't be his problem anyway.)

keep copies of everything. if you call them and you get the standard voicemail recording telling you that the conversation may be recorded "for training and quality control purposes" - you have just been given permission to record the call. do it. have the tape running at the beginning of the call so you capture that portion. if you don't get that, tell the person you want to record the call 'to make sure you got everything they siad accurately...' sign nothing. accept no verbal agreements - if it's not in writing, it doesn't exist. use certified mail.

my 356 got rear-ended and pushed into the vehicle in front of me. it was obviously the fault of the car full of teenage kids who slammed into me. too bad for me - they were also hit in the back after stopping short from high speed. the person at the very back of that line was uninsured. the kids who hit me claimed they "were hit from behind and pushed into me." this despite the fact that the only heavy damage was to the back of my car and they front of theirs - the very back person was driving an early VW Beetle and the flimsy front bumper overriders were barely bent. the kids' insurance company absolutely denied any responsibility and was totally unimpressed by the location and extend of the damage, even though it made no sense. he eventually told me, "and you can bring whatever expert witnesses you want, because we have expert witnesses that will say what we want."

i got ZIP out of that incident, and the 356 carries the collision damage to this very day. i think it'll probably cost me $20,000 to put right.

Well, Looks like you have all the experts here, Guess you'll get this one settled with all that advise.

Dr. Evil, It seems to me that you were looking for sound advise not a way to pick a fight and drag your claim out for a couple of years.

Some of you seem to think there are tactics involved. But listen to your own advise. If you make unreasonable demands YOUR the one delaying settlement.

Don't confuse the contract of insurance you have with your carrier with the obligation the other parties insurance has with regard to settling the value of your property at the time of the loss.

I'm done.

All 1000% correct. Sounds to me like you were only looking to be treated fairly, not land a windfall. That should be do-able on your own, and I think you will be satisfied with the result as long as you are reasonable.


BTW, Rich, I never meant to imply adjusters are looking to mess with your head. But most are trained to gather information, and human nature being what it is, the information gathered is usually that which most benefits the gather's position.

Rick, see why I don't answer these anymore? All future insurance claims questions may not be answered by insurance agents, adjustors, or PI attorneys. Public opinion is far more accurate. 'I have a cousin, who's friend knew someone, who...etc.'

BTW, are you Rick or Rich? If you are Rick, why is your email Rich? If you are Rich, why is your signature Rick? Inquiring minds want to know.

I answer to anything. Because of my profession some people call me Dick! Hey I can't help it... My mother named me right!

Seriously, When I signed on to the Pelican site. "Rick" was taken as a signon name. So was "Rich" So I tried rich.... that worked.

When I came over here I kept the lower case "rich" and added the 918-S for the Alien. After all, WE are Borg

Unless you live in California. Then you will get blamed for the accident even though it is physcially apparent that you did not cause it because they hit your passenger side of your VW with the front of their Toyota truck. Then the police will interview you last and completely reverse what you said and write it on the accident report. Then you have to take all your evidence in an adendum, to the insurance companys, to court, and a bunch of other hassle to prove that you did not cause the accident, while in the meantime the other parties lawyers are conguring up all kind of BS, while you cannot get a laywer to defend you because on the accident report is says you were at fault.
But the people who caused the accident get a new vehicle, and a settlement, while your insurance rate goes up, you have no car, and no money to get another one.

Welcome to Kawifornia!

I believe that adjusters are not your friend when they are dealing with you. They are trying to keep the leaches from sucking their company dry. I hope that this guy is reasonable. I dont think for a moment that my motorcycle should be replaced. It is totaled because it is more to fix than to buy. I agree with that, however the depriciation on my mint condition items is rediculous. They will end up saving about $150 on a $4000 claim by f-ing with me over jeans and a jacket and such. Jeans=$58 new, cant find used, but will give me what? $30. I think that that is petty. I have been hit a few times and this is a first. Thanks for all of you advise. I will keep yall posted.

Don't you mean like this...



-Rusty

Mike,

Stop playing the victim and Be the victim. You are, stand up for yourself and go after what you think is right.

I think maybe your worried about being an asshole and I don't think you should worry about that - your not an asshole. You got hit by an insured motorist; if there is not question about guilt in the incident then it is his insurance companies responsibility to him to make it right by you. If not , refuse their offer and you take HIM to small claims court for the damages.

They should be providing you with your replacement items or the cash equivilent as well as a check for the value of your bike.

I can relate to your wanting to do what is right, I have a similar situation with my previous employer. They could not or would not provide me with written documentation explaining why I didn't get all my vacation paid out when I left. So, I filed a claim with the labor board. NOW they have the documentation - if they had provided that to me as I was on my way out as I asked then I wouldn't have filed the claim. I don't want what isn't mine, but now it's the principal employees at this company have always had a hard time getting written policy documents that were clear, concise and LEGAL IN CA. So, the only thing I can do is stick to me guns and see what the judge says on 8/5. If I win I get the money I think they owe me plus penalties which amount to a max of 30 days pay. If I loose, I loose - I'm okay with that too I suppose. I feel bad for wasting their time as that is not my intention but they certainly had the opportunity to provide me with the documentation.

Take it easy man.

Ya! That's the one! LOL