Took some video of an open track day this last Friday. There are three of my most consistent, fastest laps to date, all in the 1:55s. I ran one 1:55 the last time I went out with consistent 1:57s after I put some old radials I had laying around on the car from a couple years back, so I got the most out of them the last track day. This time they held on for about 4 laps in the morning, and then just got greasier and greasier as the track and the day warmed up.

So I have three clean laps back to back at the beginning, a slightly slower overall time lap as the fourth but there was some neat traffic so I left it in and it was my fastest shot down the bobsled to hell and sliding back up the hill, then some footage of traffic to see some cars, general bloopers and random chaos.

And then I realized upon editing that I left the camera on when I finished, so I got a bunch of footage of various folks coming up and asking questions, talking about the car when they thought I couldn't hear which is always funny, but I threw in one snippet of a corner worker that worked down in that area I would go sliding through and the open wheeler spins.

The springs are getting stiff enough that I know I have to get the right camber set on the car, some new radials, then monkey with tire pressures. I suspect that I am in the "1/2 psi makes a big difference" spring rate range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8SkOZVLBs

bad-ass!

your teener sounds awesome! thanks for sharing the clip. you're feeding the "i'd like to try a 914 w/ a v8" bug going around the forum!

thanks guys. It has been a long road of iterating and still going for that matter, but at least it has been consistently going the right way to faster and faster times over the last year or so. Two years ago I was struggling to run much faster than a 2:02, more like 2:05s at that track, so getting down to 1:55s has been a good thing. If I can manage to shave off 2 more seconds I will be running with the modern GT2 Porsche Cup cars in the :53s so that is my current goal

Well, it's always easy to critique while sitting behind the computer and you did say you were on old tires, but if there's anything i saw in your video that might result in some improvement i would say you've left a few seconds in those big sweepers where you were coasting for what felt like forever.
Not sure what brakes you run but i think a somewhat more aggressive route through those would net you a few 10ths.


Hey, you asked

haha, yeah, I hear you. I actually need to mess with my bias bar a bit on the brake system, I had it adjusted for the most front brake I could get and it still has a little too much rear brake so I actually spun it the last time out going into turn 4 after the long straight when I tried going deeper into the zone and step a bit harder on them. I can see what I need to change to get a bit more front bias so that is on my list of winter projects now.

Hey Tim,

I forgot, what is the track you were running and how long is it? It's looks like a kick to drive, I'll have to look it up on the web.

BTW: Not only is your car getting faster, YOU are too! I'm enjoying watching you bring up the pace while being very smooth! Way to Go!

Terry

Hey Tim...

That car is really working well, love the power and love the transmission. The sequential just seems so smooth.

You are going a bunch faster out there, no question. Your driving ability is continuing to improve as well.

If you sort out the brakes allowing yourself to go a bit deeper into those corners your going to be really happy with the time.

Wanta do a hill climb in Oregon next year? I'm going to do a couple.

Terry - the full course you see me running there is 2.55 miles. It is a pretty technical course actually, so pretty hard to get the car sorted for it - there are two tight turns as you can tell, then some mid speed ones, and a couple fast ones, so finding the right mix of suspension settings to get the best of all worlds has been some work. I have been keeping track of the suspension frequency as I try different springs and right now it appears if the frequency of the front is around 94-96% of the rear, the car is pretty neutral overall with easy on-throttle oversteer to whip out of the slow turns.

Randal - would love to do a hill climb, if they pave Pike's Peak all the way to the top I will definitely run it, but Oregon would be a stretch for me to drive.

How far to Boise, ID or Polaris, MT?

"We do this strictly for fun and we stress FUN. Prize money is not involved, only bragging rights, and the class trophy at the end of the year. Presently there are six hillclimbs sanctioned by the Northwest Hillclimb Association. They are Cascade Lakes (Ashland, OR), Freeze Out (Emmet, ID), Larrison Rock (Oakridge, OR), Bible Creek (Sheridan, OR), Bogus Basin (Boise, ID), and, now, Pioneer Mountain (Polaris, MT)."

they are definitely closer, but with the cost of fuel and so forth, I have been sticking close to home on everything. The local track I am running is about 60 miles or so from my house, so that is a nice short jaunt over there.

It just drives me crazy to pay for diesel at $4.15 per gallon. Just going up to Ashland is like $300 bucks just for fuel.

Thinking about converting to natural gas. Just have to find trips where I can get fuel.

If we had any leaders in this country they would get all the trucks converted to NG.

Then we would say adios OPEC.

Looking good Tim!

Randal - my uncle converted his garbage truck to natural gas he used for business back in the 80s and even with gas at less than a buck then, it was still cheaper to do that. I am considering getting an Excursion since getting rid of my F250 to have a place to sleep at the track, but have considered getting another F250 but V10 so I can convert to NG and just have a tank in the bed behind the cab.

Currently I rent my buddy's pickup from him (GM diesel) and then put whatever I burn to go to the track here, roughly 18 gals all said and done. The track is roughly 120 miles round trip, point being I have to burn fuel to get the trailer, pick up fuel for the car, take the trailer back, so forth so it isn't just fuel to get to the track. It all adds up.

Hey Ferg - good to see you 'round. The car is a fair bit faster since that day I gave you a ride when I first moved here

just awesome!

I've checked around the web a bit and there are some people doing this. It looks like the engine has to be taken apart and the pistons replaced (lower compression) and the heads reworked to accept spark plugs. I am going to keep looking; pretty interesting stuff.

Tim,

WOW! FABULOUS!

Great Driving! Great car!

You are my hero!

I have to work pretty hard against C5 ZO6 Corvette's. I can't keep up with the C6 ZO6 versions ... your EXTRA 300 HP would sure come in handy on the straits!

Congratulations!

Randall,

Which NHA Hillclimbs are you planning for 2012? I just did my first at Maryhill Loops Road (Goldendale, WA). Lots of cool cars and drivers.

Too bad the NHA hillclimbs are spread out over hundreds and hundreds of miles!

I will post a video of my runs as soon as I can get them.

Cheers,

Eddie

thanks Eddie and Grant! It's funny, I work really hard on being smooth, but I happened to have a friend send me this video a few days before I went - a pro setting the N'Ring record for prod car in a 2010 Viper ACR at 7:12. Seeing him on the wheel so hard sorta caused me to get the mindset to really push it and a little sawing of the wheel is appropriate if on the edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5STmCZT_2E8

Good vid to watch before heading out I guess! I was consistently 2 seconds faster than my last track day out there on those tires.

I am finally getting near being able to run with the modern GT2 Porsches. Many run in the 55s like I was, but good guys run 53s with a record in the 52s. With the correct camber and new tires I am hoping to get down to 53s; that would be awesome for me to run with the fastest fendered guys on the track.

Randal - you must be referring to converting a diesel since you mention needing to add spark plugs. That is why I was considering getting a V10 gas Ford, easier to convert. Only issue with the Excursion would be finding a place to put the big arse tank v. a pickup. I really want the Excursion for the enclosed area in the back that I could throw down a twin mattress when I run at the track over two days.

Bit off topic, I watched the Bathurst 1000 V8 Supercar race over this last weekend and literally sat for 6 hrs just watching that race - YouTube some of that stuff if you really like hard core road course racing in door slammer cars. I love those cars and that was one of the best races I have seen in a LONG time. They just drive them so hard even in enduros.

I manage a fleet of 50 heavy-duty natural gas-powered and diesel-powered transit buses, and the cost difference of CNG vs. diesel is huge on a cost/mile basis. Realize, tho, that you'll give up some torque going to CNG from diesel and especially from gasoline. That especially hurts when climbing over mountain passes.

The other thing to consider is the price and weight/size of the high-pressure fuel tanks. In short, CNG has fewer BTUs per gallon equivalent of liquid fuels, so you'll have to pressurize it to at least 3200 psi (most go to 3600) and have an array of tanks to get any appreciable range. My buses have 10 tanks that are six feet long and about 24" in diameter to get the same range as a 120 gallon diesel tank. That extra weight eats tires and brakes so you'll need to factor that into your decision.

Finally, the spun aluminum & fiberglass tanks have a 15- or 20-year life, after which they must be destroyed (some could be recertifiable, but I haven't heard of many agencies having much luck doing so). Considering that each tank costs about $2500, that affects the bottom line, too.

cool, thanks for that info. I admit to being aware of the loss in torque (my dad HATED that truck after it was converted) but having sort of forgot how much after all of these years and that is a concern that I appreciate you pointed out, especially now that I get to tow over mountains. Also, I did remember that tank being huge and high pressure, but I admit I wouldn't need as many as you mention since I don't need an equivalent to 120 gals, but more like 35 gals which was the max capacity of my F250 diesel by comparison.

Nonetheless, scaling down from 120 to 35 gal equivalent is roughly three 2ft diam x 6ft tanks which is just a lot of weight to carry along while also trying to schlep a trailer over a mountain pass.

Always good to have someone that is "living it" chime in

Took the car out after not tracking it in almost a year (!!) so I was a bit rusty and running 2 minute laps in the first session. And I dropped the air chuck right on the windshield while airing up the slicks and cracked the crap out of it on the passenger side. My cousin was out from Iowa so I took him out for two sessions while I knocked the rust off my hands.

Finally in the fourth session as the temperature went well into the upper 80s and both me and the car were running hot (300deg oil temps and I could barely swallow after 20 minutes on track!) I ran a 1:54.97 and backed it up with a 1:55.12 IIRC, so two of my fastest laps yet! I overfilled my trans (the first time I have ever done that one) so I was puking trans fluid out the breather and probably oiling my own tires as every lap I went a little slower and the rear got looser and looser

I put Goodyears on which I have never used before and eesh, they will required a LOT more camber than the Hoosiers. The wear pattern was way off so I believe with about a degree more neg camber all around I can maybe dip into the 53s. That is Porsche Cup Car territory

I will post some vid on Youtube in the next week or so after I get a chance to edit all of it down. Fast group was actually all fast people as well as fast cars for once which was awesome, so I had pretty much a wide open track and found that I could pass the others and not worry they would freak out and run into me. And giving my cousin some rides with lap times that would break the Super Production record set by a fellow V8 914er of 1:57.4 was the best part.

One thing I was discussing last year in this thread was the rear brake bias - I decided to put stock pads back in the rear because I just had too much rear grip from the race pads and I really looked at my bias and it was fully maxed to the front and no safe way to go further. WELL, that is a little too far the other way - I had to move the bias toward the rear and then I really hammered deep after that long straight and a bunch of SMOKE flew into the cabin and it was the rear brakes and the car was squirrely! So I really need to find a race pad that is in-between the two. So again, I found I couldn't really push the braking. If I get the camber right and the brakes right I think :53s are no problem at all.

Gonna make it tough tearing that car apart to build a 66 Nova instead next year. I am going to try to track it a few more times this Fall to wring out all I can before moving on...

Right, you tell us you did a :54 and don't post a video. Your teasing us!
Come on Tim.

I looked at your video from last year and that car just rocks.

I can't believe it will never see a hill. Of course if you did one, you'd be hooked.

Tim,

Good to see you back here. Bet it was a good feeling to get out on the track again after so long. Do post a vid.

Terry changed to Goodyears from Hoosiers as well, and we found the same; looks like they could use a bit more camber.

Andys

Randal - I know I would love a hillclimb, it would be pretty hair raising and that is a good thing! I have 11 ft ceilings in my garage and I am thinking of gutting the 914 but not cutting anything off - instead I might just hoist the chassis up in the garage and leave it in case I ever get the itch to go back to a full race psycho ride Dunno, will have to see how it work out with the Nova.

Vid editing is a PITA but I need to get on it for sure. I need to find a good, FREE software (of course) that is easy to use for editing mpeg4 vids the GoPro generates. The free one I have is decent but time consuming and glitchy. This time my uncle and cousin were able to vid the car on the track FROM THE TOWER (too cool) so this time I am trying to splice together in car and line it up with outside shots to get an overall idea of the lap. Problem is GoPro is mpeg4 and the hand held is not so it has been hard mixing those file types thus far.

Andy - I can tell you the tire wear implies I need a LOT more camber. The rears I actually rolled over the sidewall and was scuffing down to the top of the GOODYEAR lettering! I am at -0.7deg now and I am probably going to try -1.5. Fronts are around -1.5deg and I am thinking -2 instead. And that might not be enough, we will see I guess. Front had better wear and more grip so will make less change.

I also ordered some Hawk DTC-60 pads for the rear to match the -70s on the front. They are supposedly the common pairing to reduce rear grip so we will see how that works out. Ordered some superduty pads for the Excursion as well - that thing can't stop on the OE stuff at all. Totally sketchy crap braking on that pig.

That chassis is way to good to take apart. Save it or sell it to someone like ME that would campaign it properly.

Come out to Cascade Lakes next year and you can co-drive with me. Not a V-8, but I was only a second off two fast and well driven Z06's. I'd had them if my linkage hadn't gone bonkers. Tough to run up in only first.

Can a 4 actually beat a big fast well driven Vette?

I may very well take you up on that offer! I can say after owning a 2010 Grand Sport, those Vettes with only a tire swap and a good driver are stunning. Just an amazing car right out of the factory. I tracked mine on the run flats with the air on and only 750 miles on the odometer and was blown away at how awesome it was.

But if the course it tight enough, HP won't beat lighter when it comes to corners... and yeah, having at least one more gear would probably help

I might consider selling the chassis, you are the third person to mention to sell it and the second to show interest in owning it. I still have the mount that I cut out for a 930 trans so that would be a stupid simple setup to drop a SBC and 930 trans back into and go raise hell.

Wouldn't have to worry about those Vettes tho'

Both guys that drive the Z06's are experienced hill climb drivers. No question the cars are fast as a few talkers, from this site, found out when they got their lunch handed to them at Hoopa. One thing you learn at hill climbs is seat time and specific hill experience really counts. .

And the engineering in the Vette is clearer better than just about anything you could bring, including highly modified, expensive and supercharged machines.

It seems like all you have to do is change tires on a vette and you're off to the races.

At Cascade I ran a 1:55 and the fast vette (Robert) was 1:53.153. Willie was right behind him with a 153.309, but think we could compete with them - without mistakes and with great tires. This year I was running used Canti's -not the best gun to bring to a serious gun fight. The Avon's would have been a huge advantage, especially with the cold weather we had. Also having the transmission linkage working properly would have helped a bunch.

Of course both Robert and Willie will be faster next year, but we would be right there in the hunt.

And Cascade is a technical course, so you'd like running it.

Oh, by the way October 5-7 is the Fall Enduro at Medford. All the hill climb boys show up, including the Vettes, so a fun venue. Did manage to get in front of those boys at the last autox I attended up there, so come on over. 5 laps and about 4 miutes of intense driving on a great track.

Hopefully Grant will come on up and show us the way.

Note: It was a shame that Willie, the second Z06 owner, lost his engine at another hill climb and couldn't make Hoopa.

Got a chance to edit video over the weekend so there are two new vids up on YouTube. Here is my channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/byndbad914?feature=mhee

can check out the first one which is just the fast laps but I mixed in-car footage with footage my cousin Dylan shot from the flag tower, then there is one with Dylan in the passenger seat and it also has the fast laps but in-car footage only.

Randal - I saw some footage of the Cascade run on YouTube by a guy in a 510, that looks to be a cool run. Do they always set up cones and make people do a slalom about half way through the run? Same guy ran the Medford track and it looks really tiny, holy crap. He ran it in one gear and only shifted to 2nd for the short straight. It is sort of a like an AX course but with an actual track and not the cones.

That is such a cool video, yours I mean. Nice smooth and fast driving. I would really like to see that car at Cascade. Wow, would that be fun.

Here is my early morning run up Cascade this year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfwSBy8B7a8
When we got to the hill in the morning it was snowing, so when I ran (11:30AM) the air was still +/- 50 degrees and the asphalt not much warmer. I was tentative as I didn't really know if the car would grip or not.

There are two slalom in the course. The first is set up to slow folks down before turn 4. I am at the top of 4th entering that first slalom, close to 100mph. Now 100mph isn't all that fast on the track -but it feels pretty fast right there.

FYI that run took 3 seconds of the SPU record for the hill.

I bettered that run on Sunday PM (nice warm day) by a second with two major errors. Couldn't get the car to up-shift from 1st into 2nd leaving the line (linkage had gotten out of adjustment) and, trying to make up time, went into the first slalom flat out and just couldn't get everything done without scrubbing some speed. Wish I had a video of the run following that first slalom, as I was comfortable and the car was sticking. That run ended up being within a second and a bit of the Z06's.

Sonny Smith (TTOD) came up to me after that last run and couldn't believe the time, given how long I had taken to get the car into second. Compliments from competitors are the best.

The second slalom is there for the same reason, i.e., averting offs in the wrong places at high speeds. While It would be fun to run the hill without them, any driving mistake (or mechanical) going into 4 - or the last corner before the finish, would be pretty ugly. Think the organizers have it right.

Hard to beat the sound of a V-8 ,when your standing on the go button...looks like a very fun track .... nice work Mr

Hey Tim,

I LOVED your laps on-track!! You were FAST, SMOOTH and really "going for it!"
I really appreciate that you and your car have achieved their greatest potential!
Not only great engineering, but great driving! I SALUTE YOU!!!

All the Best,
Terry

thanks guys. Gonna take some time this weekend to put more camber in the car and get it ready to go out again maybe mid Sept. if weather is cooler. If I can get a good clean session in mid-70s weather without puking oil on my tires and correct camber I think I could get another second off. And I am getting to the point I might just go balls out with the car and see what it will do or fly off the track.

Randal - that vid is pretty cool and looks like fun. You looked to be fighting a bit of oversteer but do you feel the car is pretty neutral or maybe there could be a little time to be found with suspension tuning?

Right, should have tightened up the front end a bit before I made that cold run up the hill. It was loose. Ran up using my autox settings where the front is really soft. The next day in the heat the car was really sticking, so under steer was gone.

We're switching from Goodyear Canti's (250 compound) to Avon hill climb tires (A15 compound), so definitely will have to re-tune. Also the front tire size is going from 23.5 height to 21.5, so have to re-set height. As to the Avon's, not really sure what they will do until we do some runs and check temps., etc. They are about the stickiest tire around, so should do well where we run, which most of the time feels like Alaska.

the last hoorah with the car - as many of you know from my other thread I was having rear wheel issues that ultimately turned out to be a sheared wheel flange so the axle would just spin and loosen the main nut and all would go loose.

So I pressed in a new bearing and wheel flange and then had to make a new stub axles because the other one was chewed up, so the car was all back together. Weather was about as good as it was going to get here in January so I hit the track. Had a dozen laps all under 1:57 with the fastest in the morning at 1:55.30, which is still 2.1 seconds faster than the record for Super Production. I was lowering tire pressure trying to keep up with the cooling conditions but it just got silly by the last session with the rear so loose so I packed it up and headed home. New rear brake pads had me chasing the brake bias a LOT so I am twisting that knob constantly trying to find the best balance, then with the cooling track it just got impossible to get consistent grip at all.

I got the custom frame mostly fitted and squared into my Nova project this last weekend so I need to start tearing the suspension off of the Porsche now to keep moving forward, so that is likely the last track day with the teener. Hard to let go knowing I have yet to get the best lap out of it in its current state - cold and loose was a 1:55.30, best so far is 1:54.97 that started the thread, and I know there was no less than a second lost with the lack of grip. Easily a 1:53 car with the right weather, like a good mid-60s, sunny day.

Some 1:55 laps on my channel if you have some time to kill, select the top vid. I am on the wheel quite a bit to keep it pointed in the right direction
http://www.youtube.com/user/byndbad914?feature=mhee

If anyone wants to see what I am doing with the Nova, here is a link to another site where a 66 Nova is a bit more appropriate
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=40070

edit - oh, and at the end of the vid on the drifter, I am rolling 90-95mph up that hill and on a good day over 100.