Anyone who reads this and knows who it's from knows that I am in a time crunch. I will be with me new van in two days time, so will know more then, and could possibly answer this question myself...

anyway... I see pics of the heads being removed from a 70's vw van while the engine is in the van here: http://benplace.com/heads.htm

So, my question is, is this also possible on a vanagon with the updated design... mine is a 1980.

Finally, is there any reason I can't go further and remove the cylinders as well from there?

Ultimately, I am thinking this is far quicker than my newbie self removing the engine, without all the tools at hand without having to build them or buy them (I'm $ crunched too )

Thanks for any thoughts... this has been a great active forum!

What do you suspect is wrong with the engine? I would say, if you're in a time and $ crunch as you state, that you don't go any deeper into the engine than you have to to get it back home. I would think it would be bad to break the seal between the cylinder and block (and maybe get the rings out of the cylinder) only to find out you don't have enough clearance to remove the cylinder.

Up to '83, the engine is the air-cooled, just the top breather is cast into the case is the difference in the blocks. I'm not sure how it is with the van body as far as access; I've got a 72 bus with the type 4.

In my experience, though it may seem easier, every little thing will be so much harder with the engine in the van. Putting it back together especially.

It ends up taking longer when you drop the engine because you can do it right, cleaning it all up, etc. Succumb to the urge to split the case though and it may not be back together for years!

While it *can* be done with the motor installed, it is a total PITA and will take you MUCH longer to do that way. PULL THE MOTOR and do it right. With the motor installed it's also going to complicate installing the PR tubes and such and you will be inviting leaks.

I have a lift and I wouldn't even consider pulling the heads without pulling the whole motor. . .

Ok, so pulling is the best and quickest... got it.

How would anyone recommend doing this without a lift. I see I can drop it with a good floor jack, yes? I guess that is my answer, eh?

A floor jack will work fine. You say you're short on time. Be forewarned that any work on these engines involving pulling the heads usually means you're opening up a can o' worms. That means considerable downtime. They can only rarely be rebuilt, and the new heads available come with junk valves. BTW, there are a lot of shops, including mine, that won't even touch these engines at anything less than what you might consider an outrageous fee. That's because we've learned our lesson. Too many warranty claims. I just quoted a guy $10K for a motor. Unfortunately, that didn't scare him away. Guess I'm gonna have to up the quotes!

The Cap'n

Thanks for your forewarning... hopefully the Gods are with me on this one... we'll just see, eh?

This is a rebuilt engine with 30k on it. What can of worms issues might I fall prey to?

thanx cap'n

ok, here's a question...

The issue is: big loss of power. 1st gear fine, 2nd bogs BIG time. Pedal to the floor, no power.

1st-I'll do a compression test
2nd-leakdown test

say, I find the leak in the rings (hear the hiss there not around the heads), I pull the heads in place, take out the cylinder sounding rough (if it's just one), and if I get in a pickle I can pull it from there, yes?

But, let's say I get lucky... get everything out and only have to crack one or two cylinders... get it back in... and pray with gratitude for my lucky stars!

I'm just thinking I can go one stage at a time and not start with a pull. I hear what everyone is saying, but wonder why it would make a dif when I pull 'er?

Set me straight if I'm wrong, please

Hmm, You say 1st gear is fine and 2nd bogs? sounds suspiciously like its in 4th and not 2nd. There is no reason I can "think" of that would make it bog in one gear and not another.

You are wrong.
The time it will take you to take the rear tin out while it is in, you can have thing on the ground. That is just the start of your time savings. Any little thing you can do when it's out will save you time over doing it after it goes back in. Ideally you want the back of the van on some tall stands so you can get it out, and in, in 1 piece.

Look for the basics.
Fuel filter and pump.
Ignition, valve clearances and all your plugs.
replace all the plugs, points , rotor and cap.
replace the air filter.
See if your shifter bushings are all ok...bring a whole set with you.
e-brake...make sure its free and not sticking.

Rich

Really great advice everyone... I REALLY appreciate it. OK Nathansnathan... I gotchya... good advice.

& yes, maybe it's just a spent fuel filter or stuck e-brake! Wouldn't that be awesome!

1st gear on a vanagon will move alot of weight...2nd wont.
4th is even worse...lol

You can drag an ebrake in first on a bus...its a really low gear.

Rich

Look at #3 before you do anything. Do a compression test. These things like to drop valve seats and drop valves. They also erode the edge of the piston, right down to the top ring groove, and I think you're gonna find the top end is toast. I don't think you can remove that wrist pin with the #4 piston and cylinder in place. Personally, I think you're just being stubborn. There's no way I'd even attempt this in the car, and I've been working on T2s and Vanagons since 1973. Never crossed my mind to do it in the car .....................

The Cap'n,

Cap'n, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't he make it a bit easier with the rear wheels backed up on metal ramps ($39.95 at KMart)?

Thinking of making it easier with the shafts, etc. Jack stands and heavy rubber or 4X4 wheel chocks for the front wheels would still be required. Set the ass high for doggy-style, so to speak

Well, ya gotta drop the exhaust, remove the top tin (which is surrounded by the body and a hard plastic seal), remove the intake runners, and remove the fan housing (assuming you have to get the wrist pins out). I don't see how jacking it way up would make it any easier. You have to do that anyway to get the engine/tranny out.

The Cap'n

I had to laugh at your comment, these engines are an absolute nightmare

Ok, I'm getting the picture guys. Thanks.

I also recalled this evening that the reason I think it's the rings or the valves is cause there is oil on the plugs. Thus I'm linking the low power to blowby, not fuel... but boy will I be stoked if it's a fuel filter! LOL

would a rebuild with 30k erode a head like that?

I'm not being stubborn Cap'n, just being sure that's what's ahead of me, and appreciate your advice fer sure. well, ok... I have known to be stubborn.

Thanks!

Probably not if the rebuild was done right but if it was done right you would not be having a problem with it.

I had a customer with 1.7 engine that was a "fresh rebuild" as in 100 miles that smoked so bad he came to us wanting it rebuild his "new" engine.
When I got the engine apart I could slide one of the valve guides up and down the valve stem with a screwdriver thru the intake port. After seeing that the customer opted to buy a new engine rather than trust anything done by the previous shop.

Always start with the basics and verify very thing before you dive in deep.

Jim

I've seen 'em fail in less than a month ................. Faster if the EGR system isn't there and working at 100%.

The Cap'n

EGR system?

I would honestly suggest that you go see John and Johns car corner in Westminster VT.
John has probably 25 vanagons on the lot and he has tons of parts from over 45 years in the business servicing just VW cars.

It might be simpler, cheaper, and considerably faster to just buy a used motor from John, have him install it, and enjoy life.

Rich

76 through 83 aircooled VW vans (and most other VWs), had an exhaust gas recirculation system which kept the combustion chamber temperatures down and lowered the emissions. Whether or not you are concerned about emissions levels is of no import here. What IS important is the combustion temperature. In order to keep the heads as cool as possible, the EGR must be all there and completely functional. Failure to control the temps will cause seats to drop, valves to break, and pistons to burn. It's a fact of life in van world.

The Cap'n

Thanks for that Rich, i've already tried calling... will try again soon (they're busy). But I will be in AZ when I get this, not VT.

I am looking for contact in AZ at the present, though.

Thanks cap'n, you're a plethora of info! I'm grateful.

Yea, but maybe not on cars in states other than CA. My '81 (in VA) doesn't have anything from the heads that indicate EGR stuff. There is a connection just before the CAT in the exhaust system back to the intake but there is no connection to the heads.

The EGR plumbing goes to the intake plenum, not the heads. There's a kind of spray bar setup inside the plenum that distributes the exhaust gasses to the openings of the 4 intake runners.

The Cap'n

How does that cool the heads? 'Splain that to me.... the crossover pipe with the connection to the EGR piping has been NLA for years so we're all gonna get high temps...

It adds exhaust gasses to the cylinder charge, reducing the combustion temperature. That results in cooler heads and pistons, reducing the work of the external cooling air flow.Might want to Google "Exhaust Gas Recirculation operation".

Here's a Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation

The Cap'n

I HAD to do it!!

And it hasn't been bad, until now...
I replaced a head with a dropped valve after picking up the van, got on the road and en route one of the rocker arm bolts snapped. Got that fixed thanks to the awesome guys at Dougs Bugs & bunnies in Phoenix. But after leaving there, after being pointed out that the oil smoke blowing out my oil filler hole was sign of some toasting or toasted rings... I hoped on the road to see how it would go. It went from bad to worse & now I am in a parking lot in Phoenix with my engine half apart... Which went very quickly, as did the ring replacement on #1. Number two though is being a bear.

I can't get the rings to compress enough to allow the cylinder to slide back on. I used the old ring to try & scrape out the seat a bit, but beyond that I am stuck. What can I do. From here in my position? Any suggestions?

The is urgent & I'll take any advice anyone can offer please!