any builders out there care to give me tips?

I rebuilt a 2.0 4 cylinder and tried to do a first start up on it for Christmas day.

Its in the garage... but very cold... probably had been around 10F the night before. The garage was warmed up with a kerosene heater, but I know the block was still pretty cold. Oil is brad Penn break in. Full rebuild... melling oil pump


So I know the oil is cold, but I've got it a touch over full and know the oil filter will hold a tiny bit more by the time oil fills it and all of the passages. Its not cold like molasses... its still flowing and the ambient in the garage is probably 55-60 at this point.

I pullled the coil wire and tried to turn the starter over to build pressure. After about 6 long cranks (approximately 8 seconds each?) I still don't have pressure on the gauge or the idiot light

So I pull the sender wire and verify the gauge is OK. Next I pull the sender off of the end of its flexible tubing and point the tube into a bucket while the car is cranked one more time.... No oil in the flexible tube.


Next I pull the oil filter and its got about 4/5ths (that I pre filled it with) but not wet and not full... no oil to the filter yet.

Next I put a piece of hose onto the threaded collar that the oil filter normally screws onto. I blow with my mouth and there is a tiny bit of resistance but definitely not plugged. I can hear air blowing into the sump.

finally I drain the oil and pull the tuna can... the pick up looks fine really from what I can tell through the sump hole.


So the motor has been cranked about 9 or 10 times total
I estimate that is about 90 seconds or a little less.
the last 2 or 3 times I cranked it It started to turn a little faster or "more freely" which I assume is the bearings and things fitting into each other.

I'm freaked about cranking it dry any longer.
its got a new raby cam and everything... I don't want to damage the lifters, etc.

I had used white lithium greas in the pump gears at assembly. Its a very viscous grease and shouldn't be "hard" from the temperature

Questions:

- Is there a way to prime the oil pump now? (maybe putting pressurized oil into the tubing on the oil filter collar, and having that run down hill into the pump gears?)

- am I just being a freak... and need to keep cranking it over longer or more due to the cool weather?


thanks in advance for any advice, especially "been there and know" kind of knowledge.

brant

You could pull the sender and with a low pressure pump put in a quart of oil in that way. Carefull keep it clean and not overpressure it.

I think the oil filter threaded collar is more direct to the oil pump..
the sender hose also goes to the cooler

I think I can take a 3/4 piece of tubing about 6 foot long. put it onto the oil filter collar and then hold it up above the engine (beside the car) and then just funnel in a quart that way

but do I need too?
should I have to prime it? (is something wrong with my assembly?)
would running 1 quart over full, submerge the oil pump and self prime it?

Pull the oil filter off and get oil to pump out. By filling the oil filter up you have created an air pocket. It is very hard to get oil pressure when you do this.

I rigged up a transmission funnel with a hose and 1/8 pipe fitting on the end. Unscrewed the pressure sender and slowly poured in about a half a quart. Fired up and had instant pressure. I found engine has to struggle to do initial lift to the pump without system pre-fill. Works for me.

Hey Brandt, just loosen the filter, crank until oil comes out and button it up. Just don't ask me anything about distributor caps.

I think the oil in the filter makes it harder. The paper saturates and the air between the pump and filter can't escape as easily. leave the filter off or loose and crank until you get oil there. If you pull the plugs it cranks faster and that helps a lot too. I always crank up oil pressure with the power to the coil disconnected and plugs out, then after I have pressure I put the plugs in and hook up the coil.
The cranking you have done so far should not have caused any harm.

Jim

Sounds like you need a beer, If you are still working I can be there in 20

If you pre-lubed during the re-build, you shouldn't have to prime anything. Do the above, get pressure? OK, install plugs, coil wire and fire it up. Just my .02 cents.

I used a turkey baster to squirt some oil up into the oil pickup tube.

--DD

And the winner is ................

Loosen the oil filter until there's a gap, crank it without the spark plugs until oil comes out the aforementioned gap. Tighten the filter properly, crank it some more. When the oil pressure warning light goes out, you have pressure in the system. Been doing it this way for close to 40 years, and it always works.

The Cap'n

and should'nt it be vaseline in the oil pump gears to prime it?

I think i will have a

Wow...
I did not know about the oil filter air pocket

thank you
thank you
thank you


I won't be able to work on it for another 2 weeks (its out of town)
but I will report back
thanks everyone!


brant

Hmmmm ... the engine left you for the Holidays ... bad engine, bad engine.

yes bad engine
its an 8 hour round trip commute to where the car is stored.
If the darn thing would run soon.... I hope to bring it to my house before long and it will be a much easier thing to work on it after that.

Thats the reason why it would not prime. Pre- filling the oil filter is the worst thing you can do for a first time start up of an engine.

I didn't know that

Its your cam (full kit)
and I used the assembly lube supplied
hopefully the cranking that I've already done isn't too much
I will pull the filter and proceed.
thank you

Brant,

I have an oil cooler adapter with hoses that threads onto the oil filter.

If you could rig a pump onto that to pump through the system, you could borrow it.

Stu

Thank you Stu
I think I have one too I can use.
but I appreciate the offer

brant

Filling the oil filter means you are expecting AIR in the primary oil system to PUSH the oil out of the filter and through the engine. Allowing the system to fill and bleed naturally is the only thing that works. Loosening the filter as the Cap'n mentions is also very effective.

Air won't push oil very well at all..

I definitely screwed up on that one

how bad would the 8-9 attempts to crank be? (given that everything was well pre-
lubed at assembly)

do you prefill oil filters on routine oil changes?..... or always put filters on dry for even routine oil changes?

Brant,

I once fired up a newly rebuilt K Ghia engine for~45 seconds before I realized I still had the case of oil at my feet.
It ran happily for many-many years after that with no problems.

I would not sweat it.
Also funny, I was going to post this very thread yesterday but got distracted.

I am also about to fire up my new engine in the next month or so (with a Raby Cam as well).
I even lost the type-IV engine build DVD and had to buy another one for myself for Xmas.
Thanks Jake!

Stu

The only filter I've ever pre-filled was on my old 1953 chevy. That was old school filtering. Open the top, drop 2 rolls of toilet paper in, fill it up and replace top. The new scented 4 ply fluffy stuff would never work. I used the 80 grit pure paper stuff you find at only the finest service stations.

So while on this topic: What is the consensus on what engine assembly lube to use?

I have heard:
Oil only
Oil plus cam grease on the cam only
Engine assembly lube everywhere, but you must use the right type.....

Which is it? (sorry, havent watched the whole type IV assembly video)

Stu

Stu, every engine builder will give you their gospel on that one. I like the "Oil plus cam grease on the cam only" setup.

Mark, as mentioned in other posts, you can decrease the oil pump-up time by removing the oil filter and using a oil squirter thingy (see below) with a bit of hose on the nozzle to get some oil directly into the pump via the outer hole in the oil filter console. You need those gaps between the pump gears to be sealed by oil before they'll really start to pump. Sometimes it can take while, especially if your battery or starter are slow.

Somewhat reluctantly (because it's oil-related, but at least it's not brand/grade specific) resurrecting this thread after having watched the linked youtube video below by Lake Speed. I went through a period of adding some oil to my filters during oil changes in all of my cars until I read Jake's comment linked above. I realize that was in the context of a new engine, but figured if it wasn't necessary on a new engine it shouldn't be on one that has residual oil in all of the moving parts. Based on Lake's video I guess I should go back to pre-filling. What do you make of this? Here's Lake's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=939WTeorBnQ

So if the oil filter is installed empty isn't there more air in the system vs prefilling the oil filter?

I haven't had to try this on a T4 but on the very worst designed oiling system in the history of internal combustion engines this works GREAT!

Engine in question is the early "odd fire" 231 ci V6 that GM use in a bunch of stuff from the late 70s though the mid 80s.

You could change the oil and loose the "pump prime" on these.

Lots of engines were destroyed by poorly done oil changes...

Remove either the oil filter OR the oil pressure sender and apply oil under pressure into the engine.

We would remove the sender and install a hose we made up to a facet fuel pump (square box style). The inlet side of the fuel pump would get a hose that we'd put into a quart of oil. We would apply 4psi oil to the engine and then turn it backwards for 360 degrees which would prime the pump.

This was the only way that worked every single time.

Sort of a PIA but when nothing else would work this method did.

After the "set up" was created the time it required to do this was under 5 minutes.

I ALWAYS pre-pressurize a fresh motor in this manner after a build. Normally it's still on the engine stand out of the car.

After install I kill fuel/spark and rotate it with the starter motor until the gauge sees pressure.

If I can I fill oil filters before install during a normal oil change. Some designed do not allow this.