I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.
Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar
Here are the before and after numbers:
Before/After
Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55
FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32
REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33
Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12
In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.
On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??
Full Version: Help. Got an alignment today-Numbers seem funny
Worse case, Brumos Porsche is in Jacksonville and can do this for sure. Their advice may or may not be limited by phone though.
Have you contacted Series9 here on our site?
He's also close by, South of you in Deland...
Good Luck,
Dave
Have you contacted Series9 here on our site?
He's also close by, South of you in Deland...
Good Luck,
Dave
Series9 - Member in good standing:-)
http://www.914rs.com/florida.html
1405 Flightline Blvd, Unit 21, DeLand, FL 32724
(386)256-9146
http://www.914rs.com/florida.html
1405 Flightline Blvd, Unit 21, DeLand, FL 32724
(386)256-9146
Thanks, Joe put in the engine and set up the FI and ignition system, I will shoot him a PM.
When you say "locked out", does that mean you can't get LESS than 1.2 degrees or you can't get more than 1.2 degrees on the right-front?
There are a lot of bent spindles out there.
There are a lot of bent spindles out there.
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 02:31 AM) 
When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.
Sounds like the car was hit at some point and the tub is bent.
BTDT
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 02:31 AM)
I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.
Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar
Here are the before and after numbers:
Before/After
Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55
FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32
REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33
Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12
In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.
On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??
The tires you have have are low profile and wide with a very stiff sidewall. This will magnify any split measurements from side to side. Also your tires will tend to resist side to side forces more due to road surface friction.
Rule of thumb with alignment measurements in a perfect world.
1) Camber split side to side should not exceed 1/4 degree.
2) Caster split side to side should not exceed 1/2 degree.
Front
Caster is low on the right front which most likely is the cause of the right drift.
Get the caster as even as possible side to side. 1/2 side to side your are going to feel it with those wide tires and it will pull.
Camber
Again with wide tires they dont give in the side wall like an old 75 or 80 series tires.
Get the camber equal side to side. Because you are running negative camber your tires are rolling on the inside shoulder in a straight line. This could also be the source of the vibration until the wear pattern sets in.
If the tires are old and have worn to an old alignment setting well the old is reflecting in the new.
The Toe setting was ok.
Rear
The differences in camber are high which is going to make the car push to the right in the rear (left rear camber higher than the right) Get the right rear camber higher as close to the left side as possible.
Your guy took the shims out of the rear in attempt to set the toe??? Stop right there and find a competent alignment shop. Should have left 2 shims in and the camber and would be fine.
The left rear toe could have been better. Again try to get as close to the opposite side as possible. The right rear tire is steering the rear end ever so slightly to the left. The left toe being almost zero cannot resist the right side opposing forces. (rear going left and front going right) should show up as steering wheel creep of constant correction to keep the car going straight on a flat level road.
The thrust angle was good on the final.
If you can post the SAI readings (if taken) they can be used to diagnose whether any suspension parts or structure (tower) has any damage, bent or mis-alignment.
In the real world side to side measurements will never be the same but they should be as close as possible with as little split difference for a street car with low profile wide tires.
I'd take a measurement of the right front tower to see if its in. Usually we cant get enough camber out of the front end. An SAI reading will diagnose a bent spindle or strut.
Race car and street car alignments will be very different. If you are using the car mostly for street high camber angles arent required and with those tires they will last longer.
Based on the before and after readings nothing really pops out to me that you have any real issues. The adjustment range is there just need to spend the time to get them closer.
Im sure you meant -0.5 on front camber in your opener not caster. Ever ride a bicycle backwards.
QUOTE(Series9 @ Jan 14 2012, 01:17 PM)
When you say "locked out", does that mean you can't get LESS than 1.2 degrees or you can't get more than 1.2 degrees on the right-front?
There are a lot of bent spindles out there.
He could not get less than negative 1.2 on the right front so he set the left front close to the right.
QUOTE(Jeff Hail @ Jan 14 2012, 04:33 PM)
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 02:31 AM)
I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.
Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar
Here are the before and after numbers:
Before/After
Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55
FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32
REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33
Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12
In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.
On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??
The tires you have have are low profile and wide with a very stiff sidewall. This will magnify any split measurements from side to side. Also your tires will tend to resist side to side forces more due to road surface friction.
Rule of thumb with alignment measurements in a perfect world.
1) Camber split side to side should not exceed 1/4 degree.
2) Caster split side to side should not exceed 1/2 degree.
Front
Caster is low on the right front which most likely is the cause of the right drift.
Get the caster as even as possible side to side. 1/2 side to side your are going to feel it with those wide tires and it will pull.
Camber
Again with wide tires they dont give in the side wall like an old 75 or 80 series tires.
Get the camber equal side to side. Because you are running negative camber your tires are rolling on the inside shoulder in a straight line. This could also be the source of the vibration until the wear pattern sets in.
If the tires are old and have worn to an old alignment setting well the old is reflecting in the new.
The Toe setting was ok.
Rear
The differences in camber are high which is going to make the car push to the right in the rear (left rear camber higher than the right) Get the right rear camber higher as close to the left side as possible.
Your guy took the shims out of the rear in attempt to set the toe??? Stop right there and find a competent alignment shop. Should have left 2 shims in and the camber and would be fine.
The left rear toe could have been better. Again try to get as close to the opposite side as possible. The right rear tire is steering the rear end ever so slightly to the left. The left toe being almost zero cannot resist the right side opposing forces. (rear going left and front going right) should show up as steering wheel creep of constant correction to keep the car going straight on a flat level road.
The thrust angle was good on the final.
If you can post the SAI readings (if taken) they can be used to diagnose whether any suspension parts or structure (tower) has any damage, bent or mis-alignment.
In the real world side to side measurements will never be the same but they should be as close as possible with as little split difference for a street car with low profile wide tires.
I'd take a measurement of the right front tower to see if its in. Usually we cant get enough camber out of the front end. An SAI reading will diagnose a bent spindle or strut.
Race car and street car alignments will be very different. If you are using the car mostly for street high camber angles arent required and with those tires they will last longer.
Based on the before and after readings nothing really pops out to me that you have any real issues. The adjustment range is there just need to spend the time to get them closer.
Im sure you meant -0.5 on front camber in your opener not caster. Ever ride a bicycle backwards.
Here are the SAI numbers:
Before/After
Left 12.19/11.97
Right 11.74/24.04
Included Angle
Left 10.86/10.97
Right 10.83/22.84
I do think this car was hit from the back at some point but it actualy drove pretty well even before the alignment although it seemed to hunt in straight lines.
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 01:43 PM)
QUOTE(Jeff Hail @ Jan 14 2012, 04:33 PM)
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 02:31 AM)
I took my car in to get it corner balanced and to get an alignment. The corner balancing went very well, but the alignment presented an unusual problem. On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.
Here are the particulars:
The car will be driven almost exclusively street.
The car is a 3.2 6-conversion with steel flares
I am running Kumho Ecsta 245/45 17 rear and 205/45 17 front
Bilstein sport shocks rear and sport struts front
100 lb rear springs
Elephant Racing bump steer kit
911 turbo rods and front suspension with factory 911 sway bar
Weltmeister rear sway bar
Here are the before and after numbers:
Before/After
Caster:
Left 5.51 5.06
Right 4.86 4.55
FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Toe:
Left front 0.07 0.15
Right front 0.16 0.17
Total: 0.23 0.32
REAR:
Camber:
Left rear 0.20 -1.01
Right rear -0.08 -0.34
Toe:
Left rear -0.30 0.05
Right rear 0.21 0.28
Total: -0.9 0.33
Thrust Angle -0.25 -0.12
In doing my research here, I came up with what I thought would be a pretty good set up for this car. -0.5 for the front caster and -1.0 to -1.5 for the rear, and 1/16th toe in all around. He started on the rear first and could not get the toe in to come in so he finally took all three shims from the drivers rear and ended up with these numbers. The 3 passenger rear shims were left in. He then went to the front. When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.
On the first test drive on the freeway, I started picking up a vibration in the steering wheel that certainly was not there before. It is not serious, but doesn't seem right. I also noticed that it does drive down in corners well but does seem to pull right on straight roads. Could someone look at these numbers and guide me as to where they should be. I am sure the shop will make the changes, just not sure where to go from here. Observations ?? Thoughts??
The tires you have have are low profile and wide with a very stiff sidewall. This will magnify any split measurements from side to side. Also your tires will tend to resist side to side forces more due to road surface friction.
Rule of thumb with alignment measurements in a perfect world.
1) Camber split side to side should not exceed 1/4 degree.
2) Caster split side to side should not exceed 1/2 degree.
Front
Caster is low on the right front which most likely is the cause of the right drift.
Get the caster as even as possible side to side. 1/2 side to side your are going to feel it with those wide tires and it will pull.
Camber
Again with wide tires they dont give in the side wall like an old 75 or 80 series tires.
Get the camber equal side to side. Because you are running negative camber your tires are rolling on the inside shoulder in a straight line. This could also be the source of the vibration until the wear pattern sets in.
If the tires are old and have worn to an old alignment setting well the old is reflecting in the new.
The Toe setting was ok.
Rear
The differences in camber are high which is going to make the car push to the right in the rear (left rear camber higher than the right) Get the right rear camber higher as close to the left side as possible.
Your guy took the shims out of the rear in attempt to set the toe??? Stop right there and find a competent alignment shop. Should have left 2 shims in and the camber and would be fine.
The left rear toe could have been better. Again try to get as close to the opposite side as possible. The right rear tire is steering the rear end ever so slightly to the left. The left toe being almost zero cannot resist the right side opposing forces. (rear going left and front going right) should show up as steering wheel creep of constant correction to keep the car going straight on a flat level road.
The thrust angle was good on the final.
If you can post the SAI readings (if taken) they can be used to diagnose whether any suspension parts or structure (tower) has any damage, bent or mis-alignment.
In the real world side to side measurements will never be the same but they should be as close as possible with as little split difference for a street car with low profile wide tires.
I'd take a measurement of the right front tower to see if its in. Usually we cant get enough camber out of the front end. An SAI reading will diagnose a bent spindle or strut.
Race car and street car alignments will be very different. If you are using the car mostly for street high camber angles arent required and with those tires they will last longer.
Based on the before and after readings nothing really pops out to me that you have any real issues. The adjustment range is there just need to spend the time to get them closer.
Im sure you meant -0.5 on front camber in your opener not caster. Ever ride a bicycle backwards.
Here are the SAI numbers:
Before/After
Left 12.19/11.97
Right 11.74/24.04
Included Angle
Left 10.86/10.97
Right 10.83/22.84
I do think this car was hit from the back at some point but it actualy drove pretty well even before the alignment although it seemed to hunt in straight lines.
And here is the flowchart
I did say the car was hit in the back at one time, however the struts are new and the car has barely been driven.
QUOTE
And here is the flowchart
So you are saying there may be an issue with the right strut plus structural damage since SAI Camber and Included angle are all greater??
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 01:55 PM)
QUOTE
And here is the flowchart
So you are saying there may be an issue with the right strut plus structural damage since SAI Camber and Included angle are all greater??
I am more concerned with the before measurements. The SAI and camber were very close before any camber adjustments were made. You mentioned the corner balance went well. I assume this is a lowered car with the bump steer kit installed. How did the ride height turn out?
Based on the specs I dont think without seeing/ measuring the structure is off.
The before specs showed a slightly lower SAI on the right front but IA was ok.
Everything went skyward when the camber was adjusted. I'd go with a strut housing/ spindle assy. Check the ride height also to make sure both control arms are level or at least equal if car is lowered. You mentioned the struts are new. The housings or just the inserts?
Here are the measurements on the corner balancing:
LF 599 RF 541
LR 724 RR 678
LF/RR=1277
RF/LR=1265
RH% 48.0
Rear% 55.1
With me in the car of course and 3/4 tank of gas.
Cross Percentage 49.7%
There was no adjustment to the ride height based on these numbers.
LF 599 RF 541
LR 724 RR 678
LF/RR=1277
RF/LR=1265
RH% 48.0
Rear% 55.1
With me in the car of course and 3/4 tank of gas.
Cross Percentage 49.7%
There was no adjustment to the ride height based on these numbers.
You mentioned the struts are new. The housings or just the inserts?
[/quote]
New inserts, but I pulled the wheels yesterday and did not see any issue with the housing or the spindle.
Thanks for your help Jeff.
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 05:31 AM)
... On the passengers side front the camber locked out at -1.20 and he said he could not reduce the negative camber any further.
Before/After
FRONT:
Camber:
Left front -1.33 -1.00
Right front-0.91 -1.20
Not sure why he couldn't reduce RF negative camber further since it was 0.3ยบ better before he started...
Seems you could just un-do whatever he did to make it worse...
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jan 14 2012, 10:32 AM)
QUOTE(ellisor3 @ Jan 14 2012, 02:31 AM)
When he got to the passengers side, he said it was lock out at -1.20 because the strut tower was all the way over. I thought this was odd, but I kept the setting as above.
Sounds like the car was hit at some point and the tub is bent.
BTDT
+ check your trailing arm mounts to make sure the holes are not ovalled...
I've gone back and read this again, and I'm seeing more things that don't add up.
I see that the front/right camber at -.9 and ended up at -1.2. Why is this a problem? Did you want more negative camber than -1.2?
Also, there are other numbers that just don't match as close as they should after an alignment.
The rear camber being -.3 and -1.0. Why would you leave it like that?
The rear toe being .05 and .28. That's just wrong.
Are these numbers measuring toe-in or toe-out? I usually quote toe-in as a negative number, but that depends on who you ask. If these numbers are toe-out, I'll bet the car is a little hard to drive and wants to change lanes on its own.
As mentioned earlier, removing shims in the rear to correct toe is incorrect. The shims adjust camber.
Overall, the numbers on the front look OK to me (as long are to toe numbers are IN and not out).
The rear needs to be fixed, but it's coming to me for metal work back there, so let's leave it alone for now.
I see that the front/right camber at -.9 and ended up at -1.2. Why is this a problem? Did you want more negative camber than -1.2?
Also, there are other numbers that just don't match as close as they should after an alignment.
The rear camber being -.3 and -1.0. Why would you leave it like that?
The rear toe being .05 and .28. That's just wrong.
Are these numbers measuring toe-in or toe-out? I usually quote toe-in as a negative number, but that depends on who you ask. If these numbers are toe-out, I'll bet the car is a little hard to drive and wants to change lanes on its own.
As mentioned earlier, removing shims in the rear to correct toe is incorrect. The shims adjust camber.
Overall, the numbers on the front look OK to me (as long are to toe numbers are IN and not out).
The rear needs to be fixed, but it's coming to me for metal work back there, so let's leave it alone for now.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.