I am looking to build a big displacement type 4 for my 914, and I want to hear from people that have driven a 914 w/ a big "4" . I am looking to build something around 2500-2700cc. Any experiences good or bad would be helpful.
THanks
Lorne
Full Version: big type 4 experiences
Welcome to the Board (forum) 
An engine that large is not needed by many people....Trust me.
So many times I see huge engines being built and too many corners being cut. The size of the engines does NOT DICTATE THE POWER IT WILL MAKE! It also does not necessarily dictate HOW LONG IT WILL LAST!
To do a Type IV larger than a 2316cc combo in my professional opinion REQUIRES the use of a set of Nickies cylinders, extensively worked heads, and a combination that will set all the components in motion as efficienly as possible. The stock Type IV head is very tricky to configure an engine around and honestly after 2316ccc you are really creating alot of work to gain efficiency. The stock cylinder heads are very restrictive on the exhaust side and they are most of the time may too modified on the intake side by novice builders and that makes things WORSE!
As amatter of fact after 2316cc the cylinder heads are pretty much maxxed out and all the added displacement simply MOVES THE POWERBAND LOWER. It does not make more power without figuring out a way to trick the engine into thinking it jas more head than it really has! (Thats where odd cams come into play and complicate things drastically)
Look into a 2270 or 2316cc engine done right with the powerband that you want. Done right you will attain 140-190 BHP and a total daily driver that idles as smooth as stock and pulls hard straight to redline. The engine will be simpler to buikld and you won't hit problems that will simply make you give up.
Build it too big, or cut corners and you'll have every possible problem on earth. The main problem with Novice TIV builders is going too big on the engine. The power in these engines is in the combo, NOT THE DISPLACEMENT!
Thats why my 2270 makes more usable power than my competitors 2615!!!! Dyno proven! (and mine is still alive and theirs has been torn down 7 times to repair head leaks and a slung rod!)
Build for efficiency and everything else will magically appear... The only hard part about that is the finding the efficiency is not easy! Remember, The bigger it is the harder it is to find the efficiency... Huge pistons and long strokes create alot of friction and drag- Thats hard to overcome. There is a possibility of more power by adding them but the motoring HP is increased so gains are not huge.
I have seen engine projects get started out with huge intentions and get sold on ebay because the builder made rash decisions and got in over his head. A customer of mine spent 10,000 bucks before he finally sold everything and paid me to build it for him!
Keep it smaller, keep it simple, and keep it together while retaining your sanity. The "Big Boys" are even a challenge for me and these engines are all I live for.
So many times I see huge engines being built and too many corners being cut. The size of the engines does NOT DICTATE THE POWER IT WILL MAKE! It also does not necessarily dictate HOW LONG IT WILL LAST!
To do a Type IV larger than a 2316cc combo in my professional opinion REQUIRES the use of a set of Nickies cylinders, extensively worked heads, and a combination that will set all the components in motion as efficienly as possible. The stock Type IV head is very tricky to configure an engine around and honestly after 2316ccc you are really creating alot of work to gain efficiency. The stock cylinder heads are very restrictive on the exhaust side and they are most of the time may too modified on the intake side by novice builders and that makes things WORSE!
As amatter of fact after 2316cc the cylinder heads are pretty much maxxed out and all the added displacement simply MOVES THE POWERBAND LOWER. It does not make more power without figuring out a way to trick the engine into thinking it jas more head than it really has! (Thats where odd cams come into play and complicate things drastically)
Look into a 2270 or 2316cc engine done right with the powerband that you want. Done right you will attain 140-190 BHP and a total daily driver that idles as smooth as stock and pulls hard straight to redline. The engine will be simpler to buikld and you won't hit problems that will simply make you give up.
Build it too big, or cut corners and you'll have every possible problem on earth. The main problem with Novice TIV builders is going too big on the engine. The power in these engines is in the combo, NOT THE DISPLACEMENT!
Thats why my 2270 makes more usable power than my competitors 2615!!!! Dyno proven! (and mine is still alive and theirs has been torn down 7 times to repair head leaks and a slung rod!)
Build for efficiency and everything else will magically appear... The only hard part about that is the finding the efficiency is not easy! Remember, The bigger it is the harder it is to find the efficiency... Huge pistons and long strokes create alot of friction and drag- Thats hard to overcome. There is a possibility of more power by adding them but the motoring HP is increased so gains are not huge.
I have seen engine projects get started out with huge intentions and get sold on ebay because the builder made rash decisions and got in over his head. A customer of mine spent 10,000 bucks before he finally sold everything and paid me to build it for him!
Keep it smaller, keep it simple, and keep it together while retaining your sanity. The "Big Boys" are even a challenge for me and these engines are all I live for.
Its 2 am, shouldn't you be sleeping?
Welcome Back Jake...How was fishing?
Actually its 0230 :-)
Fishing was good. Better than I ever remember. The storm had them in a frenzy- They weren't as smart as usual either!!
I have just finished answering 437 emails and paying all my bills. Now I know why I have not went on a real vacation since 1993- its just not worth it unles you work for someone else and have a dozen more slackers to pawn responsibility onto...
As for sleep-I work till I get tired then I crash for 3-4 hours and do it all over again!
Like Edison said "I owe my success to the fact that I never had a clock in my work room"........
Fishing was good. Better than I ever remember. The storm had them in a frenzy- They weren't as smart as usual either!!
I have just finished answering 437 emails and paying all my bills. Now I know why I have not went on a real vacation since 1993- its just not worth it unles you work for someone else and have a dozen more slackers to pawn responsibility onto...
As for sleep-I work till I get tired then I crash for 3-4 hours and do it all over again!
Like Edison said "I owe my success to the fact that I never had a clock in my work room"........
Jake,
Thanks for your reply, I do agree with you that bigger is not always better, especially in the hands of a novice builder. Also reliability is something that can drastically decrease the bigger and wilder a motor, that doesn't always have to be the case but unfortunately it usually is. I just want to hear about the experiences people have had with a big type 4. Would they do it the same if they could start all over again? Would they rather go with a 6? Or a Turbo TIV?
I am interested to hear anyones comments.
Thanks
Lorne
Thanks for your reply, I do agree with you that bigger is not always better, especially in the hands of a novice builder. Also reliability is something that can drastically decrease the bigger and wilder a motor, that doesn't always have to be the case but unfortunately it usually is. I just want to hear about the experiences people have had with a big type 4. Would they do it the same if they could start all over again? Would they rather go with a 6? Or a Turbo TIV?
I am interested to hear anyones comments.
Thanks
Lorne
Hi Lorne,
I got a fabulous deal on a 2.6 with Motec ems etc, or I would have followed Jake's concepts. Might fire it up today for the first time. Although it was built by a long time race/street engine builder (Jerry at NW Connecting Rod) who has an excellent reputation, I don't expect to have the longevity of a smaller engine. Here is an article by Mike Nugent that might be of interest (same builder by the way):
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...14_big_four.htm
John www.ghiaspecialties.com
I got a fabulous deal on a 2.6 with Motec ems etc, or I would have followed Jake's concepts. Might fire it up today for the first time. Although it was built by a long time race/street engine builder (Jerry at NW Connecting Rod) who has an excellent reputation, I don't expect to have the longevity of a smaller engine. Here is an article by Mike Nugent that might be of interest (same builder by the way):
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...14_big_four.htm
John www.ghiaspecialties.com
I have a 2270 in my 914 that Jake gave me a ton of (free) advice on. I am very happy with it as of now - If I were to do it over again, I would have a diffrent valve size seletion, but all in all, it runs great.
I have some other problems with idle jets getting plugged (tank is suspect) which has really rained on my 914 parade this year. I'll get it sorted out in time to put it away.
Build a nice 2270 or even a 2056. You'd be surprised at how hard a properly built 2056 pulls.
Later,
Tom
I have some other problems with idle jets getting plugged (tank is suspect) which has really rained on my 914 parade this year. I'll get it sorted out in time to put it away.
Build a nice 2270 or even a 2056. You'd be surprised at how hard a properly built 2056 pulls.
Later,
Tom
Heh, heh, I actually saw that "Big Four" of Mike Nugent run years ago...
I have seen a few 2270 around here and there is one 2.6L that runs great. It is not a street motor but for AXing.
For the money, big hp is cheaper with a six. Yes, you can turbo a four but bring money and lots of time to set it up so it won't blow up.
Especially with the turbos and big four heat is the killer! That is why Jakes combo work as he has made his own cams to help with the exhaust heat problems.
A 2056 makes good power and is easy to set up compared to the other bigger four so go that route.
Geoff
I have seen a few 2270 around here and there is one 2.6L that runs great. It is not a street motor but for AXing.
For the money, big hp is cheaper with a six. Yes, you can turbo a four but bring money and lots of time to set it up so it won't blow up.
Especially with the turbos and big four heat is the killer! That is why Jakes combo work as he has made his own cams to help with the exhaust heat problems.
A 2056 makes good power and is easy to set up compared to the other bigger four so go that route.
Geoff
In the last few years, since around 1998 when I started my campaign to "Share the truth" the huge Type IV engines of 2500+ccs are not as popular as before.
The huge 103 cast iron cylinders gave big problems and many engines would not make it to 10K miles without head leakage and problems galore that required tear downs. Not many specialist have taken the time to sit down and actually design these engines and due to that the huge engines were even worse.
I noted the big issues and was determined to make smaller, more efficient engines that would make more power than their huge counterparts that didn't last- Thats what we did and have been doing time after time with excellent results!
Read the testimonials on my website and you will see that many of those customers own a 914 with a 2270 series or 2316 series engine installed.
BTW, I don't consider a 2270- to be a "Big type 4" its not big till you get to a 2563 and get a 102mm bore and alot more cost....
Give that car 155BHP, keep it simple, and keep it alive and you will have a smile on your face. You don't have to do ANY modifications to the car to accept the engine and have no conversion hassles- You can install the engine in 5 hours, not 5 weeks.......
The huge 103 cast iron cylinders gave big problems and many engines would not make it to 10K miles without head leakage and problems galore that required tear downs. Not many specialist have taken the time to sit down and actually design these engines and due to that the huge engines were even worse.
I noted the big issues and was determined to make smaller, more efficient engines that would make more power than their huge counterparts that didn't last- Thats what we did and have been doing time after time with excellent results!
Read the testimonials on my website and you will see that many of those customers own a 914 with a 2270 series or 2316 series engine installed.
BTW, I don't consider a 2270- to be a "Big type 4" its not big till you get to a 2563 and get a 102mm bore and alot more cost....
Give that car 155BHP, keep it simple, and keep it alive and you will have a smile on your face. You don't have to do ANY modifications to the car to accept the engine and have no conversion hassles- You can install the engine in 5 hours, not 5 weeks.......
LISTEN TO THE MAN!!!!!!!!! 
I have spent the same coin for a 2666cc motor that will be down on power relative to the 23xx that Jake is talking about....
The difference is I had to do it myself...do it again, I am smarter and would by a Jake combo...That being said, I want to see the dyno on my motor when I finish....give me 200hp and 200 Ft lbs or I will be bummed.....not really, but these numbers are what I am shooting for.....I know I won't hit the HP number...
Oh yea, I have been working on this motor from last November..It takes a long time to put one of thse together.
good luck...herb
I have spent the same coin for a 2666cc motor that will be down on power relative to the 23xx that Jake is talking about....
The difference is I had to do it myself...do it again, I am smarter and would by a Jake combo...That being said, I want to see the dyno on my motor when I finish....give me 200hp and 200 Ft lbs or I will be bummed.....not really, but these numbers are what I am shooting for.....I know I won't hit the HP number...
Oh yea, I have been working on this motor from last November..It takes a long time to put one of thse together.
good luck...herb
200HP is VERY hard to make- VERY! I worked for years before I ever broke the 200 mark!
If you make 200 on the first try you better go play the lottery because you are a very lucky man! After 180 ponies the heads reall fall on their face and it takes huge amounts of attention to detail in the ports to gain more than that!
I do hope that you make your goal!!! Remember that 20HP can be found in tuning alone so find a dyno operator that knows these engines and you will simply be paying for HP!
If you make 200 on the first try you better go play the lottery because you are a very lucky man! After 180 ponies the heads reall fall on their face and it takes huge amounts of attention to detail in the ports to gain more than that!
I do hope that you make your goal!!! Remember that 20HP can be found in tuning alone so find a dyno operator that knows these engines and you will simply be paying for HP!
I have bad experiences with a big type four (2364).
But this was over 20 years ago.
I have heard great things on this web site about Jakes motors.
I agree with Jake if your looking for something in the 150-180hp I would look seriously at a big four.
Back in 1982 European racings 2.4 liter kit with 103mm pistons and barrels was the only thing available.
I had my 2.0 case and heads machined for the kit.
I also had a 285 duration cam put in.
It cost me about $3500.00 for the completed long block.
The motor lasted around 15k before the rings tweaked out and I lost compression.
I was stupid and had the motor gone through again.
Another $3k gone.
Once again the motor lasted around 15k and then it sucked a valve.
This motor was a blast to drive while it lasted.
I beat the crap out of this motor every weekend and raced everything in site.
I had no problems beating stock vets, mustangs, etc....
After the motor died the second time, my only choice was get rid of the car or put in a six.
I wasn't about to waste any more money on the four.
I opted for a six.
I beat the crap out of my 2.7 six, bouncing off the rev limiter every weekend.
I could not kill this motor.
20 years later the 2.7 started pulling head studs.
It had well over 120k miles on it.
Since I already installed the tank, cooler, mount, etc. it made sense to buy another six.
This time I opted for a stock Euro 3.2 from a wrecking yard.
It cost me $5200.00 for 231 reliable hp.
I kept the stock DME fuel injection and installed a Steve Wong chip.
I miss the sound of the webers on the 2.7 but I don't miss the clogged jets and other hassles.
Long story short.
Do your home work.
How much do you want to spend?
How much HP do you want?
Do you like messing with carbs?
Do you care about a stock original four banger vs. cutting up the car up for a six or eight?
Big motor means big brakes and possible trans issues= big bucks.
Go to a Porsche club event and drive some converted cars.
200+ hp in a 914 is a very wild ride but very expensive!!!
Steve
But this was over 20 years ago.
I have heard great things on this web site about Jakes motors.
I agree with Jake if your looking for something in the 150-180hp I would look seriously at a big four.
Back in 1982 European racings 2.4 liter kit with 103mm pistons and barrels was the only thing available.
I had my 2.0 case and heads machined for the kit.
I also had a 285 duration cam put in.
It cost me about $3500.00 for the completed long block.
The motor lasted around 15k before the rings tweaked out and I lost compression.
I was stupid and had the motor gone through again.
Another $3k gone.
Once again the motor lasted around 15k and then it sucked a valve.
This motor was a blast to drive while it lasted.
I beat the crap out of this motor every weekend and raced everything in site.
I had no problems beating stock vets, mustangs, etc....
After the motor died the second time, my only choice was get rid of the car or put in a six.
I wasn't about to waste any more money on the four.
I opted for a six.
I beat the crap out of my 2.7 six, bouncing off the rev limiter every weekend.
I could not kill this motor.
20 years later the 2.7 started pulling head studs.
It had well over 120k miles on it.
Since I already installed the tank, cooler, mount, etc. it made sense to buy another six.
This time I opted for a stock Euro 3.2 from a wrecking yard.
It cost me $5200.00 for 231 reliable hp.
I kept the stock DME fuel injection and installed a Steve Wong chip.
I miss the sound of the webers on the 2.7 but I don't miss the clogged jets and other hassles.
Long story short.
Do your home work.
How much do you want to spend?
How much HP do you want?
Do you like messing with carbs?
Do you care about a stock original four banger vs. cutting up the car up for a six or eight?
Big motor means big brakes and possible trans issues= big bucks.
Go to a Porsche club event and drive some converted cars.
200+ hp in a 914 is a very wild ride but very expensive!!!
Steve
Thank you all for your opinions,
There are alot of things to think about as this project goes on, and that is why I decided to put this topic out there to see what others have experienced. I guess a goal should be set, and I would like somewhere in the 160-180hp range, as far as cost well at this point whatever it takes. I absolutely love driving my realtively stalk 2.0l w/ CIS fuel injection, it is very smooth, reliable, it pulls hard. But what it does lack is that thow you back in your seat power taking off from a stop light or coming out of a slow corner. I have toyed with the idea of a 6cyl, but I have driven many big type 1 motors there is something special about driving a big horsepower 4 cylinder. I would never consider a V8 conversion, I just don't see the point.
As far as carbs, well I would still run a form of fuel injection so that wouldn't be a real issue for me. Brakes and Transmission, i realize that can be a problem, I already have 911 vented brakes up front, and am iconsidering my options for upgrading the rear, and the transmission, well I would cross that bridge when I came to it.
Please keep on posting your ideas or opinions on here, I am sure there are alot of other people that are asking the same things.
Thanks
Lorne
There are alot of things to think about as this project goes on, and that is why I decided to put this topic out there to see what others have experienced. I guess a goal should be set, and I would like somewhere in the 160-180hp range, as far as cost well at this point whatever it takes. I absolutely love driving my realtively stalk 2.0l w/ CIS fuel injection, it is very smooth, reliable, it pulls hard. But what it does lack is that thow you back in your seat power taking off from a stop light or coming out of a slow corner. I have toyed with the idea of a 6cyl, but I have driven many big type 1 motors there is something special about driving a big horsepower 4 cylinder. I would never consider a V8 conversion, I just don't see the point.
As far as carbs, well I would still run a form of fuel injection so that wouldn't be a real issue for me. Brakes and Transmission, i realize that can be a problem, I already have 911 vented brakes up front, and am iconsidering my options for upgrading the rear, and the transmission, well I would cross that bridge when I came to it.
Please keep on posting your ideas or opinions on here, I am sure there are alot of other people that are asking the same things.
Thanks
Lorne
The type of performance you desire is just three steps away...
(1) Phone call.......
(2) Open wallet.......
(3) pronounce the numbers on the card in front of you....
Then wait 6-8 months for a Freight truck to pull into the yard..........
(1) Phone call.......
(2) Open wallet.......
(3) pronounce the numbers on the card in front of you....
Then wait 6-8 months for a Freight truck to pull into the yard..........
Jake,
You make it sound so easy!!!!
Lorne
You make it sound so easy!!!!
Lorne
It is just that easy.......... Not for me, but for you!!
Jake you make it sound so expensive! Not for the work but for the shipping!! 
I haven't experienced it yet, but my car begged me for a big four, so i had to open my wallet really wide! Getting a 2563 kit from Jake!! It'll be a street car, but probably won't see any streets for a while. I didn't realize how much $$$$ it would be till i started, too late to back out now. shucks 
I've already made up my mind it'll be worth it. You can't take it with you, so you might as well spend as much as you can while your here.
charles
I've already made up my mind it'll be worth it. You can't take it with you, so you might as well spend as much as you can while your here.charles
Also Tom Burdge, and Mark peebles are FP guys. I currently have engines in the works for both of them.
I am not really looking for anyone to build the motor. I am just looking for opinions or eperiences with these motors. I guess I just have to start stock piling parts. Does anybody have a set of apfelbeck cylinder heads they want to sell me? Or Remmeles?(I wish)
Keep the posts coming!
Thanks
Lorne
Keep the posts coming!
Thanks
Lorne
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