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peteyd
I am trying to figure out what I have here. I noticed that there are two different wiper switches available. 70-72 and 73-76.


This is the one that is in the best condition.
Notice that it only has four pins on the left side.
Click to view attachment


I have already attached a switch that I got from davep, which will trigger my electric washer pump that I plan to install.
Click to view attachment

This is the second one that I have. Being in worse condition out of the two.
It has five pins on the left side. The extra one being a brown, which is ground correct?
Click to view attachment

The switch is also different in that the plunger that would activate the washer fluid has an electrical contact

Click to view attachment

I am running a wiring harness from a 72 car. Which switch do I need to use? Am i missing pieces from the first switch maybe?

Im stumped here...

Pete
SirAndy
QUOTE(peteyd @ Feb 6 2012, 08:06 PM) *
I am running a wiring harness from a 72 car. Which switch do I need to use? Am i missing pieces from the first switch maybe?

I'm pretty sure the wires you need weren't part of the main harness and switch until '73/'74.

So, even if you used the later switch portion, your harness would still be missing the correct wires.

It's been a while, so a may be wrong about this ...
idea.gif
jim_hoyland
See: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...l=wiper*++wire*


This has some helpful info and diagrams. smile.gif
peteyd
QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Feb 7 2012, 05:49 AM) *

See: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...l=wiper*++wire*


This has some helpful info and diagrams. smile.gif


This is somewhat helpful, but it still does not distinguish which is the early and late wiper switch. I am assuming now that the one without the extra pin is the earlier one.

Can someone still confirm this?
Valy
I've done a lot of research on this topic. Here is what I know:

Switches:
1. The 4 wire switch does only support low and high speed. The water is activated through a valve. Wipers will not work when the water valve is activated. The connector has 5 terminals but one is not populated.
2. The 5 wire switch adds the timed delay relay option and wipers on when water valve is open. Note that you can't run an electric water pump with this switch. It just triggers the delay relay to operate the wipers when the valve opens.
3. There is a 6 wire switch used in Super Beetle that has an additional wire for the electric pump. This wire doesn't go to the connector and has it's own spade connector that should be routed to the pump (see picture - note that this switch has both the valve and the pump wire so you can use electric or pneumatic washer system)
4. There is an old 924 switch that has the same functionality as (3) but has a larger connector with 7 terminals. It's an extension of the 914 connector with 2 additional terminals, one of them empty. The pump wire is in the extension. (see diagram below)

5. The signal switch has a tab that prevents the wiper switch to go into the intermittent position. That tab must be removed when an extended switch is used.

Harness:
The 914 harness had the option for intermittent wipers. In some models, everything is in place and an intermittent wiper is installed in the front trunk. If that relay is not there, the wire from the switch (5th terminal) is probably still in place but it's wrapped in the harness to prevent a short.
You can add the relay but you'll have to cut the return power from the wiper motor and plug the relay there, together with the said wire and power and ground.

My opinion, and this is what I've done to my car as well, is that with all the trouble you go through to add the wiper relay, it's better to add a programmable relay that will permit you to control the wiper interval. I use a VW relay that allows that just by switching the wipers on-off-on once to program the interval. The relay wiring is a bit different but you need to add that relay anyway.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

SirAndy
QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 10:19 AM) *


2. The 5 wire switch adds the timed delay relay option and wipers on when water valve is open. Note that you can't run an electric water pump with this switch. It just triggers the delay relay to operate the wipers when the valve opens.


Yes you can!

http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_el_washer.php

I briefly mention it in the article above.

You just need to be a bit creative with the wiring ...
shades.gif
Valy
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Feb 7 2012, 10:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 10:19 AM) *


2. The 5 wire switch adds the timed delay relay option and wipers on when water valve is open. Note that you can't run an electric water pump with this switch. It just triggers the delay relay to operate the wipers when the valve opens.


Yes you can!

http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_el_washer.php

I briefly mention it in the article above.

You just need to be a bit creative with the wiring ...
shades.gif


The 914 switch is normally-closed and grounds when idle. It will brake that ground when you pull the lever.
Yes you can get "creative" with the wiring and can also modify the switch but it won't work in stock configuration.

If you count on the relay to power the pump when you pull the lever that you may easily burn that relay.

SirAndy
QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 11:14 AM) *
If you count on the relay to power the pump when you pull the lever that you may easily burn that relay.

No, what i meant is that you can use the same wire as the trigger for a second relay for running the pump.

I guess my wording in the article is not very clear on that, but there shouldn't be any problem with triggering two relays using the same wire.

shades.gif
peteyd
Great!

Thank you Valy for all that info. I now have some solid info to go forward with!

Cap'n Krusty
A switch from a '77 924, Rabbit, or Scirocco works. It's NLA, though.

The Cap'n
peteyd
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Feb 7 2012, 12:56 PM) *

A switch from a '77 924, Rabbit, or Scirocco works. It's NLA, though.

The Cap'n



Also good to know.

Thanks
Valy
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Feb 7 2012, 12:56 PM) *

A switch from a '77 924, Rabbit, or Scirocco works. It's NLA, though.

The Cap'n


There are reproductions available. Not great but good enough.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?Pr...C-111-953-519-G


Valy
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Feb 7 2012, 12:16 PM) *

QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 11:14 AM) *
If you count on the relay to power the pump when you pull the lever that you may easily burn that relay.

No, what i meant is that you can use the same wire as the trigger for a second relay for running the pump.

I guess my wording in the article is not very clear on that, but there shouldn't be any problem with triggering two relays using the same wire.

shades.gif

Yes a relay will work. The problem was to make it work without modifying the harness.
BTW, another solution would be to add just a relay for the water and activate the wipers during that time, without the intermittent relay. I have a circuit for that as well.

Click to view attachment
Valy
Here is the best solution in my opinion, using the new VW programmable relay.
If you add a delay relay to your wipers, this is the same amount of work and you get all the benefits of modern electronics with variable delay without changing the appearance.

Click to view attachment
peteyd
QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 04:16 PM) *

Here is the best solution in my opinion, using the new VW programmable relay.
If you add a delay relay to your wipers, this is the same amount of work and you get all the benefits of modern electronics with variable delay without changing the appearance.




Do you have a link for one of those VW relays?

or is it just something like this..

Click to view attachment
Valy
QUOTE(peteyd @ Feb 7 2012, 05:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 04:16 PM) *

Here is the best solution in my opinion, using the new VW programmable relay.
If you add a delay relay to your wipers, this is the same amount of work and you get all the benefits of modern electronics with variable delay without changing the appearance.




Do you have a link for one of those VW relays?

or is it just something like this..


Yep, that's the one.
Just make sure it has [99.] printed on it. There is a [19] one that is not programmable.

I think I still have one spare.
Eric_Shea
Update.

Many Thanks to Valy for the countless e-mails and assistance.

I have my front trunk completely wired now.

IMPORTANT: I used the 924 7-pin but, it does not fit in a 914 steering column. The 914 column is only wide enough to support the 6-pin. I was able to use the plastic plug pieces from my 914 switch and make it work. Now I have the intermittent wiper relay and a lead off the switch to activate the pump.

Just a heads up to anyone thinking of using the 924 switch.
Krieger

[/quote]

There are reproductions available. Not great but good enough.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?Pr...C-111-953-519-G
[/quote]

Dang! I bought part # 111-953-519 H based on someones post here a long time ago. Every time I turn it on a fuse burns out. Good thing I really don't drive in the rain. Any ideas as to the difference between the G and the H models? Is there a way to tweak mine? The steering/lock assembly on my car is a 74 model. Car is a 75.
Valy
[quote name='Krieger' date='Feb 28 2012, 08:37 PM' post='1636033']
[/quote]

There are reproductions available. Not great but good enough.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?Pr...C-111-953-519-G
[/quote]

Dang! I bought part # 111-953-519 H based on someones post here a long time ago. Every time I turn it on a fuse burns out. Good thing I really don't drive in the rain. Any ideas as to the difference between the G and the H models? Is there a way to tweak mine? The steering/lock assembly on my car is a 74 model. Car is a 75.
[/quote]
I have exactly that switch in my 74 and it works fine.
I can try to help but you need to provide more details.
Which fuse Burns?
What exactly you turn on?
What's connected to the switch?
Have you done any modification? Pictures help very much.
Bartlett 914
I did a little research on this as well. If you want intermittent wipers and use the signal to trigger a relay for the washer pump, you will have a problem. The load on from the washer pump relay will not allow the intermittent wiper to operate properly. My solution was to add a high impedance relay driver circuit. It is very simple and easy to make. Intermittent wipers and washer pump without an extra switch.
Wiper discussion
Eric_Shea
Interesting Mark. So if I pull my stalk and activate the pump, it should run the wipers what; 4 times? But you're saying the load from the pump will affect this?
Valy
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Feb 29 2012, 07:25 AM) *

Interesting Mark. So if I pull my stalk and activate the pump, it should run the wipers what; 4 times? But you're saying the load from the pump will affect this?

Eric, you're good. Your switch has separateed contacts for the pump and relay.
There were some out there that tried to use the same (brown/black) wire for both functoins.
Eric_Shea
Whew...
Bartlett 914
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Feb 29 2012, 09:25 AM) *

Interesting Mark. So if I pull my stalk and activate the pump, it should run the wipers what; 4 times? But you're saying the load from the pump will affect this?

Hi Eric

The relay for the intermittent wipers will not work properly if you add a washer pump to the circuit. The resistance of the relay coil or the pump motor will render the intermittent inoperative. The circuit I made solves this problem. It is a high impedance relay driver. That is, the power to pull the relay is very low. Somewhere TTL signal level. The relay coil and the motor windings are low resistance. I made a perf board circuit as shown in the other thread. It is small and can be hidden. I may have another one I can send you or you can make your own.
Bartlett 914
IIRC the brown white wire to the intermittent relay uses 3 signal levels. At ground, the intermittent wiper function is off. Pulse to 12 volts (as in a wiper stalk pull) and the intermittent relay will cause the wipers to give a few wipes. Open, and the intermittent function works. Changing the resistance to some extent (not enough to be useable) will change the delay time. If you put a relay with one grounded to this connection Washer pump coil or relay coil), the signal to the intermittent relay will appear to be grounded and no intermittent function.
Valy
DELETED
Krieger
Which fuse Burns? -5th one from right, it has the wiper/cig lighter on cover.
What exactly you turn on? When I turn on the wipers the motor starts to move then the fuse cooks
What's connected to the switch? All stock...except hot wire for cig lighter powers vdo fuel gauge, which functions correctly.
Have you done any modification? Pictures help very much. The harness is all stock otherwise. I do not have anything fancy added for the wipers.

Car is 75.
I replaced the 75 plastic steering column housing, with an earlier 73/4 metal unit. This is the assembly that holds the key/lock, wiper washer, turn signal
????
Valy
Try this:
ignition off. Put the which in high speed position and turn on the switch.
If the wipers work then your short is in the return line from the motor to switch.
Krieger
I put a 16 amp in and put the wiper switch all the way up, key on, zap! it immediately fried.
Valy
QUOTE(Krieger @ Feb 29 2012, 06:55 PM) *

I put a 16 amp in and put the wiper switch all the way up, key on, zap! it immediately fried.


OK. No more destructive tests for now.
I assume that the wipers didn't move at all, correct?
take out the connector from the switch and measure the resistance between the wires and ground.
here is what you should get:
green/white 0 ohm or very low
Red/white infinite.
black purple will read the motor resistance
Black blue should read higher resistance than previous one.

If all is good, next the switch will need to come out. If that's not an isstrue, you can take it out now to test the wires as crawling under it is a PITA.
Krieger
Wipers didn't move. I am going to pull out the steering wheel now.
Krieger
So I am measuring between the ground terminal on the plug (body harness) that goes into the back of the wiper switch and the other wires on that same plug?

here is what you should get:
green/white 0 ohm or very low---dont have a green/white, i have a black/green white
Red/white infinite.---red/gey?...
black purple will read the motor resistance---dont have
Black blue should read higher resistance than previous one.--dont have


My wires don't really match your descriptions...

Krieger
Plug
Valy
That's the signal switch connector. Look at the other one, smaller.
And use the car body for ground please.
Krieger
Doh! I figured that out and this is what I'm getting
green/white infinity!!!!?
black/ blue 0
black/ purple 0
red/black infinity
Valy
OK.
Green/white shows that your wipers are probably not completely parked. Don't worry about that for now.
The other two black ones show that your wiper motor is probably history or you have a short in the harness.
Can you switch the meter to the lowest ohm scale and repeat the measurement. You should get different readings, black/blue should be higher.
If bothe are still 0 it may be the harness.
Krieger
black/purple 10.7
black/blue 10.2
Krieger
Just got an old wiper switch of unknown origin. Plugged it in turn on ignition flick switch, wiper works no problems....
Eric_Shea
Andy... It's your switch. wink.gif

Happy to help! biggrin.gif
Valy
Eric, I knew you're going to master it! wink.gif
Valy
QUOTE(Krieger @ Feb 29 2012, 09:03 PM) *

Just got an old wiper switch of unknown origin. Plugged it in turn on ignition flick switch, wiper works no problems....

Hm..... Numbers don't make sense but never mind that now.
You should'be say you have a replacement smile.gif
Take some pictures of the switch guts. Let's see what's wrong.
jt914-6
For those who own a '70-71 (I think that is the years) that have a factory dash mounted wiper switch, I have a replacement that is intermittant and has a hot lead for a 12 volt pump. It is designed for use with Bosch systems and had one on my '74. For those with the steering column switch, this one can be used but it has to be dash mounted. pm me with any questions.... smash.gif
Krieger
I'l get back into this tonight when I get home.
Krieger
Hey, I'm at it again.
Here are some observations:
The old unknown switch works wipers and does not pop fuse when installed in steering assembly as well.
The "new" switch works the wipers and does not pop the fuse when it is out of the assembly....
I 'm gonna study these switches and see if I can find out why.
Valy
Your backdate column is grounded. Check from something protruding from the switch that touches the column when installed.
Also check that the small detachable copper tab is installed correctly.
Again, a picture would help a lot.
Take a look at this:
Click to view attachment
Krieger
There was a small "protrusion" I filed it a little put some electrical tape over the corner and it works when installed! All back together and ready to go! Thanks for the help! beer3.gif
Krieger
The protrusion was similar to the top right of your picture. It was not that hard to find the scrape it made inside the metal housing.
Valy
smilie_pokal.gif
Happy to help smile.gif
jkb944t
QUOTE(Valy @ Feb 7 2012, 02:19 PM) *

I've done a lot of research on this topic. Here is what I know:

Switches:
1. The 4 wire switch does only support low and high speed. The water is activated through a valve. Wipers will not work when the water valve is activated. The connector has 5 terminals but one is not populated.
2. The 5 wire switch adds the timed delay relay option and wipers on when water valve is open. Note that you can't run an electric water pump with this switch. It just triggers the delay relay to operate the wipers when the valve opens.
3. There is a 6 wire switch used in Super Beetle that has an additional wire for the electric pump. This wire doesn't go to the connector and has it's own spade connector that should be routed to the pump (see picture - note that this switch has both the valve and the pump wire so you can use electric or pneumatic washer system)
4. There is an old 924 switch that has the same functionality as (3) but has a larger connector with 7 terminals. It's an extension of the 914 connector with 2 additional terminals, one of them empty. The pump wire is in the extension. (see diagram below)

5. The signal switch has a tab that prevents the wiper switch to go into the intermittent position. That tab must be removed when an extended switch is used.

Harness:
The 914 harness had the option for intermittent wipers. In some models, everything is in place and an intermittent wiper is installed in the front trunk. If that relay is not there, the wire from the switch (5th terminal) is probably still in place but it's wrapped in the harness to prevent a short.
You can add the relay but you'll have to cut the return power from the wiper motor and plug the relay there, together with the said wire and power and ground.

My opinion, and this is what I've done to my car as well, is that with all the trouble you go through to add the wiper relay, it's better to add a programmable relay that will permit you to control the wiper interval. I use a VW relay that allows that just by switching the wipers on-off-on once to program the interval. The relay wiring is a bit different but you need to add that relay anyway.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment


I now have the Super Beetle switch with the six wires so that I can have both the intermittent relay option and the electric washer pump.

I know that I should use the separate sixth black wire with the spade to trigger the electric washer pump. Is this black wire 12V positive when you pull on the stalk or is it grounded to negative?

Jeff B
Valy
Positive (99% sure but I can't check right now).
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