I had a VERY interesting talk with Walt Watson of Competition Engineering this weekend. He's been doing Porsche engines for close to 40 years. He's building a 912 engine to replace a ONE HUNDRED MILE failed engine. The "AA" brand wrist pin fractured and took out the crank, the case, the camshaft, and much of the rest of the engine. He's done a little research and discovered that this isn't the first time this has happened. I looked on the net and found one within seconds. Y'all might be interested in reconsidering the use of these products. Other than the piston/cylinder set, all the parts were top quality, the engine was assembled and properly broken in by a highly experienced 356/912 specialist, and it ran just about a hundred miles before grenading. The nice folks at AA told the owner to take a hike, it wasn't their problem. "Musta been an error on the part of the tech or owner". I've sold and installed one set. I'll never sell another.

You've been made aware of the problem, how you choose to deal with it is your call. The Cap'n

That's a shame, those are expensive motors.

I wonder what broke first, the pins, clips or pistons?

Ouch

Wow, that's an incredible story. I'm pretty new to the Porsche world, are there good recommended manufactures out there. I was just getting ready to order a whole set up from AA for my 2.0. I wanted to build a little more power into it.

We don't use these pistons and haven't sold any since they dropped in quality around 2005. I have never used them in my engines but we did sell them briefly through mt store.
The engine probably detonated just once and caused the situation, those pistons can't take that.

Give it a few more years and it will b e impossible to build an engine worth a damn at all. Everything has gone Chinese and it's the bottom of the barrel for quality.

That was my experience with AA ten years ago, and I haven't dealt with them since. In heated discussions about AA on this board it was the opinion of a number of people that no one should say anything negative about vendors. I'd observe that if people here are your friends and colleagues then you have an obligation to let them know, so they don't get hurt by repeating your bad experience. Then bad vendors can either get it right or disappear.

Thanks for the heads-up, Cap'n.

Is this a kit they resell? What happened to the NPR Japanese kit that was available for 2.0 914's and 356 engines? Just curious.. The NPR kit was pretty popular in the 70's and 80's with good results.

Good point.

So what is the alternative for a 2056 without going to nickies?

Caveat: I have never built a Type 4 engine, I have not used any of these products. I have been researching the issue for an upcoming build either by myself or a Vendor.

It appears that the AA cylinders are useable but you must measure carefully to make sure you get a good set. If not you must deal with whomever you bought them from to return the out of spec cylinders. It also appears that the KB cast pistons will work with this cylinder. Alternatively, forged JE pistons or similar can be used but if you need a forged piston, IMHO, you likely need a better cylinder.

Some reputable vendors on this site sell AA cylinders with pistons by other manufacturers. Alternatively, if you are not bound by "rules" you can have a stock cylinder bored to 96mm an purchase a set of reputable pistons. The conventional wisdom appears to be to throw away the AA pistons.

FWIW, which is not much if anything, I am leaning towards having the stock cylinders from one of my "core" motors bored out.

Probably have your original cylinders bored out using a torque plate and get the Keith Black pistons.........I would still rather you get a reply from Jake Raby though....I would be very interested in knowing this myself.

Do yourself a favor and buy a set of piston and cylinders from Jake. You won't be sorry.

Racer Chris at Tangerine offers such service. I think it's about the same price as new AA cans, but rumors has it that a 40 year old "Made in Germany" can is better than a new Chinese.

I'll continue using them. A couple guys have an unresolved issue and we condem an entire company. They sell thousands of these sets a year all around the world. Your bound to get a bad part from time to time. It's been my experience that unless a forensic engineer with a degree in metallurgy put out a report with the findings like this photo then were all just guessing. A wrist pin broke? Really? Not the pin boss in the piston but the pin? Not the cast rod? the tool steel pin?

This photo happens to be from a claim I'm working on. I wouldn't get into the details but this photo shows micro cracking usually associated with improper cooling of the metal.

I have a set of stock cylinders that are bored to 96mm and a set of keith black pistons to go into those cylinders. Thats whats going into my next build.

With the exception of Eric....he is special and deserves being harrased on occasion.
Typically we leave that to the canadians.

I know this is off topic, but I have to agree with the above statement as I was given a bad time when I was critical about a product sold by a vendor who is a member here.

also agreed, while the cap'ns experience & reaction is understandable, this is internet FUD and mob mentality at its finest.

I was thinking the same thing, Rick.

On the AA wrist pins i saw , they where machined from from each end leaving a mismatched step in the ID of the wrist pins, (stressriser)

Kap'n & All,

Back in Dec. `80 I had an all OEM parts motor rebuild done on my 2.0 by my long time mechanic here in Huntington Beach, which later had an OEM Porsche/VW wristpin failure in `83 & only about 15-20k later. Unfortunately it was a month after I got laid off & I was short of cash, but my guy covered the rebuild & replacement of the one P/C etc. damaged by the parts since it was an original mfgr. part & short mileage.

So it can happen to even factory parts, although I don't know if it's more prevalent with AA's parts now or not, but I'm still one who would stick with quality German parts whenever possible anyway - knowing that even those can fail sometimes.

Just to be absolutely clear...please correct me if I am wrong.

I understand this thread is about AA Performance Products pistons, no?

As opposed to pistons or anything else AutoAtlanta sells.

The reason I don't use the AA pistons isn't limited too piston composition. Over time I have had all brands of pistons fail, to include JE forged pistons.

As we look to the future the one thing that I won't miss is inferior, sub-standard components and the level of acceptance they sometimes have just because they are "affordable".

Price isn't always a gauge of quality in both directs...

Yes, AA manufacturing not Auto Atlanta which I will use again also. One purchase, on success.

Got photos? Your speaking of step on the outer edge of the inside radius of the pin? like how deep? MM?

The 100 mile blow-up of a high quality 356 engine probably cost more than I have invested in every automobile I own. I'd love to know if Mr. Watson, or the owner, is pursuing a remedy. As much as we all tend to cringe at the idea of lawsuits, it would be an effective way to discover how many claims of premature failure AA Performance Products receives.
It could also be determined who jobs the pistons for AA and what other products for what other companies that vendor produces.

I think you are confusing AA (the piston manufacturer) with AA (the company located in Atlanta) ...

Why would anyone use Chinese pistons in an engine that starts at 10k to build?
It's kind of like racing on Chinese tires~

Or bungee jumping with Chinese rope...

Cheap = Cheap. Yes there are expensive pieces of crap out there too ( Lamborghini ) but for the most part the expensive crap gets weeded out over a short period ofime. The cheap crap lasts because it is $$$ CHEAP $$$



could this thread please be nailed ?

Maybe your engines do. But not all engines do. As I stated, price isn't a gauge of quality in both directions.

And that is the stupidest agrument I ever read. Like I would go out and spend more money for the same thing for the sake of saying I didn't buy the cheap thing... If I can get what I need and it meets the standards required to achive what I'm out to accomplish and save money doing it I will. Simple economics.

You are bashing parts with no facts Jake. You talk about all the testing you've done and can't point to any one specific engine that failed. You even tout about having failures with the best of what you call the best.

Anyone want to put up the parts that failed and have them tested by an engineering firm that specializes in forensic engineering I'll accept the agrument that you had a part fail. But that does not make all the parts bad. As Jake stated he has had the best parts he can buy fail. Was that money well spent?

There is a big difference in using the best parts and having a failure, rather than using sub-standard cheap parts and having a failure. In one instance you do everything you can not to have an issue and in the other instance you ASK for the issue.

The reason that we have never had an issue with these pistons is because we haven't used them to build engines and the reason for that is because I don't like the ring pack and the fact that only Grant and Deves make a ring that has the proper characteristics to fit the ring lands. That fact alone has kept me from applying them in any situation where they will fail. I met Cheng Shin a long time ago and won't ever forget it.

I have seen numerous issues with these from engines that have been sent to us as cores and have helped many people try to figure out why the engines they built burn a quart of oil in 150 miles.

Like I said, there are some applications where you don't use Chinese parts and one of those is a 356/616 engine. The problem is that today you can't buy anything else and even a lot of what you buy is made in China when its not advertised to be. We fight this all day in some instances as components that are bottom of the barrel are almost all thats left. I have worked to create a 100% made in USA engine and have it ready to release as a limited edition, but the price tag will make you cringe.

Now, what can be found in this pile of rubble from my trophy shelf is what remains of a Cheng Shin Piston that failed on me in 1997. When the piston failed it took out the cylinder and the crankcase. If you look closely you will see piece of the piston, cylinder and crankcase with a perimeter bolt sticking through it. Pay no attention to the crankshaft broken in half or torched Carrillo rod as those were other non-related portions of our education. The engine that failed was my personal engine but I didn't build it as it came in a car that I bought that was previously modified. The entire engine was junk, not one part could reused as the collateral damage destroyed everything internally. This happened while cruising 75 MPH, not on the track.
This used to be a piston~


Even the best of us have failures.. Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment.

Call me a skeptic if you want, but 1997? In 97 we couldn't fit off shore aftermarket body panels on a Toyota. A used engine in a car you purchased? No known history about whether the engine had ever been run lean, overheated had a prior valve guide failure that could have fractured that piston eventually causing a collapse? Sounds like a sales pitch to me. Come on Jake. You can cause any part to fail no matter what they cost. If the meet they specs required for an air cooled application it doesn't matter if they are cheap or cost twice what Keith Blacks cost. And you don't know because you don't use them.

And what's wrong with deves rings? I've run those for years in several BMW's I built Like from 1987 when I built several 2002's and re-ringed the standard bores for my first 914 1.7. I continued to use them through 2000 when I built a killer 3.0 for an E3 528 sedan. I beat the snot out of that car and never had an issue. What other parts should we condem here while were at it?

Edit: one of my 2002's had 14:1 compression and had a vaccum gauge that sat at 18" of vaccum steady as a die. Deves rings

Interesting stuff.

Rick I looked in my shit buckect, nogo, I assure you the mismatch was in the center of the wrist pins ID bore, I replaced em with mahle used. They were a 911 p/c set.

Ah, center of the pin. I did not get that from your first post. Interesting. If that's the case it would be even more interesting if crusty pal could shed some light on his pin issue. Mine looked fine when I built my last engine. It sounds like something worth a look when you purchase the set.

Anyone have a set on the shelf?

You're right Andy, my bad. Still pissed off at AA after ten years, I probably need to let it go... ... ... no, can't do it, those bastards.

Far too much generalization, Jake. In the late 80's, early 90's I ran a company that imported parts for diesel trucks. The Mercedes parts came from Brazil, and the best aftermarket Cummins pistons came, to the point here, from a Cummins plant in China. Those Brazilian plants were German and run by Germans, the Cummins plant by Americans, and both were OEM for companies whose product quality is generally beyond reproach. It's not the country of origin that makes a difference, but the company manufacturing the parts.

I agree that some Chinese parts can be quality. I have an electronic component made for one of my devices in China and the quality is great, BUT it took us a year of complaining and development with the factory to be able to say that.. Hundreds of units had to be turned down before we got it right.

The big difference comes from the importer of the components. The primary issue with parts for these engines that originate in China is the importer is not willing to go above and beyond to get them right and they just accept and peddle anything that they can. It costs a ton of money and time to get samples of each run sent overseas before an entire run is made.

Deves rings in a Type 4 engine last about 5,000 miles before they smoke on start up and begin contaminating chambers with oil. Grant rings never seal from the beginning and with each of those I have tried multiple roughness averages and plateau finishes concerning cylinder hone. What works in your BMW is irrelevant for the Type 4 application- bust my balls and I'll return the favor.

It amazes me how people defend products just because they are cheap. Have an "experience" and you'll learn the true definition of "cheap". Use what you like, but when it costs you money don't complain.

Can anyone else confirm Deves rings only last 5000 miles in a type IV with real data like leak down test results? Your still flapping your lips Jake. I'm supposed to just agree with you because you say it? I respect the fact that you've built a business based on high end engine builds but how about real consistant test data in real world engines. Not just your special engines. Lets hear from others that have had Deves rings fail at 5000 miles. Let's see some real world engines and leak down results. While were at it what other parts should we condem at your behest?

Just to make my statement PERFECTLY clear, I'm NOT talking about Automobile Atlanta. Rather, I'm calling out the US distributor of Chinese made piston and cylinder sets that goes by the name "AA".

And calling out someone without the forensic data is not only hearsay but slanderous. When you post forensic photos with the opinion of a engineer then you can call someone out.

I also respect your years in the business but calling someone out based on what a friend told you is not credible.

A couple of answers to questions that have come up: The wrist pin appears to have fractured first. If you google "AA piston wrist pin failure" there's another engine, a 356, that clearly shows the type of failure we're talking about. The story there even includes some descriptions of Rockwell hardness testing on various components involved. The pin is shattered. Mr. Watson has pursued the issue with AA to no avail. His shop did the machine work but did not assemble the engine, but has stepped up to help the owner of the engine deal with the loss. This kind of thing is why you should deal with quality people at quality businesses.

For the record, I've done business with CE since the mid-'60s, and you would be hard pressed to find a better Porsche specialty machine shop and engine builder anywhere.

The Cap'n

This wrist pin failure is incredible!!

I'm glad to hear a good shop is helping this guy out. . .

Link to a 356 engine failure found on search:
[never mind, Nate beat me to it ]

Capn'
I haven't ever seen a broken wrist pin, have you??? Not in any engine! Not even the M96 where we have 23 modes of failure!

Rick918S- Then we will agree to disagree because none of it really matters enough to argue about. I never should have posted. Thanks.

Thanks for posting the link. Would have been nice if the capt would have done that to begin with instead of posting hearsay. I'll have to read through the post.

All I wanted was facts not hearsay. Not a friend of a friend. That's how internet legends start.

2009 post with no resolution. Anyone a member of that forum and can post to see what ever happened to the Rockwell testing?

"Hearsay"? Technically, yes. However, when the source has credentials as impeccable as the owner of a 50 year old Porsche specialty machine shop with all his experience and knowledge brought to bear, one has to give some credence to the story.

It seems I must apologize for attempting to alert those folks to the possibility of mechanical and financial disaster. I hereby do so. It also seems that no good deed goes unpunished. I thought that was a joke; I guess not. Sorry about not posting a link; I did suggest how viewers could do their own research, maybe get the facts for themselves instead of it being handed to them on a platter.

The Cap'n

This broken enough for you?


Click to view attachment

Capn'
I love pictures like that! Unreal, looks a little brittle to me.