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914World.com > The 914 Forums > Originality and History
Pat Garvey
In light of the nearly constant carping from ONE particular member to "cull the heard" of some nailed section(s) posts, I ask several questions:

1. Are there too many posts/threads that should be un-nailed?
2. Who should decide if they are inappropriate to the topic?
3. If, after deemed inappropriate to the thread/forum, should they me simply deleted? Should they be moved to some sort of limbo for aperiod of time before deletion?
4. Should they just be sent to the "limbo" category forever?
5. If sent to "limbo", should the posts be left there indefinitely? There are many anomolies to the early production 914's. These are old cars. Production of the early ones was filled with on-the-spot changes.
6. Many other questions........

Look, I'm just trying to do my job here. I do not know everything about every model produced. I will NOT be the judge of every post. I "moderate". That's all.

In the rare occasion that something is inappropiate I have moved threads.

Last thing I want is for my buds to be p_ssed off at me for my lack of knowledge of every 914 ever produced, in any iteration. Again, my job is to MODERATE.

Guidance please!
Pat
tod914
Pat here's a suggestion. Copy the nailed threads. The copy can be left alone with all the discussion in it. At the top of the nailed ones, post a link to the copied thread. Unnail the copied thread. Purge the hell out of the originals. Just use your best judgement, which we all trust, and give us the cliff notes. That way, if someone wants more info, they can goto to the unailed copied thread smile.gif Alot of work, but gives the best of two worlds. Maybe Paul would be willing to assist you? He certianly has a deep knowledge of 914 history and info..
Pat Garvey
Good thought Tod, but a lot of work. Still, doable.

Let's here from Naberhaus here.
Tom_T
Pat,

While I like Tod's idea of keeping a simplified thread nailed on all topics there now with a link to an unnailed & unadulterated version - and IMHO there should be a few more nailed as well, such as that OEM paints thread which I've suggested before -

.... I do have concerns about losing what may be valuable to somebody else in the sometimes rambling discussion.

What may seem unimportant to you, Tod or I - may indeed be just along the lines of what someone else needs to know, and once it's gone it's gone.

I mean the idle chit-chat types of crud posted can certainly be deleted with no consequences to content, but may offend the poster's &/or other folks sense fo free speech.

Plus it's a huge task to do that to all of those posts, and do you - or does anyone - really want to wade thru the back log of topics/posts today - let alone keep up with it over time!!?? blink.gif confused24.gif

Really - isn't that one guy you mention - already retired with all sorts of spare time now to wade through the extra posts in these topics!!?? poke.gif biggrin.gif

... just funnin' ya' P! laugh.gif

Any-hooo ... I'd say let them self police & not edit them - nor reduce any nailed topics, just maybe delete selective posts if there is something inappropriately said, or in bad taste, etc.

Instead, I'd prefer to have you, nuen-verhzen (sp?), Tod914, Tom B. & some of the other O&H resto old hands on here look through the archives of the "regular" topics on O&H & the Garage forums, to pluck out some juicy tid-bits of wisdom on restoring our beloved 914s, which have up until now escaped being nailed!

IMHO that would be time better spent! ... my 2 cents anyway! smile.gif

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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Pat Garvey
G
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Mar 21 2012, 06:29 PM) *

Pat,

While I like Tod's idea of keeping a simplified thread nailed on all topics there now with a link to an unnailed & unadulterated version - and IMHO there should be a few more nailed as well, such as that OEM paints thread which I've suggested before -

.... I do have concerns about losing what may be valuable to somebody else in the sometimes rambling discussion.

What may seem unimportant to you, Tod or I - may indeed be just along the lines of what someone else needs to know, and once it's gone it's gone.

I mean the idle chit-chat types of crud posted can certainly be deleted with no consequences to content, but may offend the poster's &/or other folks sense fo free speech.

Plus it's a huge task to do that to all of those posts, and do you - or does anyone - really want to wade thru the back log of topics/posts today - let alone keep up with it over time!!?? blink.gif confused24.gif

Really - isn't that one guy you mention - already retired with all sorts of spare time now to wade through the extra posts in these topics!!?? poke.gif biggrin.gif

... just funnin' ya' P! laugh.gif

Any-hooo ... I'd say let them self police & not edit them - nor reduce any nailed topics, just maybe delete selective posts if there is something inappropriately said, or in bad taste, etc.

Instead, I'd prefer to have you, nuen-verhzen (sp?), Tod914, Tom B. & some of the other O&H resto old hands on here look through the archives of the "regular" topics on O&H & the Garage forums, to pluck out some juicy tid-bits of wisdom on restoring our beloved 914s, which have up until now escaped being nailed!

IMHO that would be time better spent! ... my 2 cents anyway! smile.gif

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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Good thoughts Tom.

I'm still listening!

Wade in here boys & hirls!
MDG
I agree with Tod's idea.

1) Make a copy of them as they stand right now and place that copy into the general forum where are are "discussing" this right now.

2) The 'nailed' version then has all of the superfluous posts edited out leaving the pertinent photos in place. This way it remains a 'reference' source. Period. Only for reference.

3) the FIRST post in each nailed thread is edited to read: For futher discussions, comments, opinions and to ask questions please see the companion thread in the general discussion forum below. You are not asking people to learn brain surgery here; I think our membership will understand how to do this . . .

Then in future any new info and photos deemed worthy by the group can be copied over and placed in the 'nailed' thread by the moderator (only by the moderator).

If someone researching needs a specific reference they can go to the nailed thread to look it up withouth wading through an extra dozen pages of talk. This way, the nailed threads are like chapters in a book. Need info on front trunks? Go to that chapter and look it up; original wheel options? Go check it out . . .

If they cannot find what they are looking for or find they need clarification on a point, they click their mouse, jump down to the discussion and ask. OR if they have new info, maybe a new photo or 10 - they post it in the discussion forum. The moderator can then add this to the nailed forum if it is deemed suitable.
MDG
I also agree that I'd like to see the nailed posts be expanded to include even more areas of the car. This can turn into the ultimate source for FACTUAL 914 info. The people collecting and contributing this info aren't writers doing research on a new book idea they have been commissioned to do. This info has been - and will continue to be - based on the accumulated knowledge of hands on experience through decades of ownership by people with a true passion for these cars. The great, the good, the bad and the rusty.
Tom_T
I can see problems with having two threads - one nailed & "locked" and one regular & "open" but buried somewhere in the archives - where good information could get lost. Some folks with info to offer may not add a post if they can't find the proper thread or don't want to hunt it down, and those looking may miss needed info. with the duplicate format.

Also, we have to realize that it could be a huge workload for a Moderator to go find the choice posts worth moving to the nailed thread version of each of many nailed topics. That is a large task for a paid full time staff, not to mention guys doing it for fun & love of 914s in their spare time!

After all, it's a volunteer effort as Mod, and not a full time commitment - so a lot of info would be dropped - not to mention Moderators dropping out! sad.gif

While a lot of things would be "nice" and "easier" on here - I think we need to be realistic that this is a public forum/bulletin board format with hobbyists & volunteers - and not paid professionals running an auto magazine/publishing website.

As such, sometimes you just have to put up with a little disorder and extra "fluff" in the individual postings & topics overall.

My 3 cents worth..... shades.gif
tod914
If the discussion link is posted on top of the nailed thread, it won't get lost. It can be very easily referenced, and further information can be added. With Mike on that, 100%. I don't think Andy and Mark want to give out admin rights to a dozen people, but maybe a couple of people could help out to cut down on the work load. If one topic is done per month, shouldn't take too long to do. People can also go back and self edit their posts too. Just a suggestion smile.gif Not sure how else this can be approached.
1970 Neun vierzehn
Yes, I continue to dead horse.gif

Photos that don't belong, an inordinate amount of repetitive "quoting" that hampers quick, concise retrieval of information, and discussion that just isn't relevant to the specific area being focused on, all burden the "nailed" threads in their ability to be a useful source of precise, focused, informative, and OEM library of 914 material.

There are , what?, 17 #%@*& on wheels & tires. We ought to be able to show excellent, clear photos of the handful of wheels that the 914 was equipped with on two pages. One or two posts should define the very few tire sizes that were original to the car. If we feel a discussion is warranted about the fitment of later tire choices (and I believe it is necessary) it should be a separate thread and not have the implication that the fitment of, say, a 185/70 is an acceptable substitute for a 155 X 15 (my personal feeling here re:155s.... barf.gif ).

Attached is just a small sample of what is on the nailed threads, and shouldn't be.....
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ Mar 22 2012, 08:03 PM) *

Yes, I continue to dead horse.gif

Photos that don't belong, an inordinate amount of repetitive "quoting" that hampers quick, concise retrieval of information, and discussion that just isn't relevant to the specific area being focused on, all burden the "nailed" threads in their ability to be a useful source of precise, focused, informative, and OEM library of 914 material.

There are , what?, 17 #%@*& on wheels & tires. We ought to be able to show excellent, clear photos of the handful of wheels that the 914 was equipped with on two pages. One or two posts should define the very few tire sizes that were original to the car. If we feel a discussion is warranted about the fitment of later tire choices (and I believe it is necessary) it should be a separate thread and not have the implication that the fitment of, say, a 185/70 is an acceptable substitute for a 155 X 15 (my personal feeling here re:155s.... barf.gif ).

Attached is just a small sample of what is on the nailed threads, and shouldn't be.....

blowup.gif
I repeat my offer to turn pver moderation of this forum to you, so you can clean it up. Too many hours required for me, unless a system can be come up with so other's feelings are not hurt (which, in turn, wouls arouse wrath on ME). I'm done with being the bad guy, and am not running for poilitical office!

Give me a system, where everyone is happy, and I'll try it.
Tom_T
QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ Mar 22 2012, 07:03 PM) *

Attached is just a small sample of what is on the nailed threads, and shouldn't be.....


Paul - I do think that the current options for new tires of original fitment are appropriate in the nailed thread - no need to make folks look further, since we're talking about a resource for current restorations & preservation.

Also, the 185/70VR15 Michelin XWX was indeed a Porsche factory option available new on our 914s - both /4 & -6 - so IMHO it is appropriate to be in there nailed as well (Bowlsby's site options page lists it & IIRC the factory option M-code was included at my post on tire sizes).

I personally knew a guy when I was in college who ordered his `73 914-2.0 with those tires new from the factory, along with his 99 customer match or 98 special Porsche color paint & Beige interior combo (don't recall which his color metallic blue was - but a freaking beautiful 914!).

I'll try to get some time to go into the nailed topics & clean-up my threads, as I see that the crappy bent up bumper there is mine, so I'm as guilty as anyone! dry.gif

BTW - I do now have a nice shiny freshly restored & rechromed rear bumper, but the hunt goes on for a 73-75 front! smile.gif

Pat - if you see any of my post-edited ones in the near future with just plain ole nuttin but "EDIT" or "PLEASE REMOVE" etc., then feel free to delete it completely with no hard feelings Pal! biggrin.gif

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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Tom_T
OK Pat, 3 hours later I've gone through all of my posts in the various O&H nailed threads & marked those which an Admin/Mod can remove completely as: "EDITED - DELETE" and trimmed down a few others with editing.

However, I did leave in posts dealing with clarifications on the topic at hand, adding information to the subject (e.g.: factory spec docs., etc.), and sources for current replacement tires, & Concours acceptance, etc. Paul & some others probably still won't be satisfied with that.

I feel that these nailed threads should not only give information on what WAS original 35-40 years ago, but also about what IS accepted now & how to get there or as close as possible TODAY with available tires, finishes, etc.

Now that SirAndy has increased the size of pix we can post, while I was doing the editing out, I also went in at nailed "The few, the rare..." topic & added the pix of my buddy Jerry's mostly original 71 914/4, with notes on where things are changed from strictly factory original, as you'd asked me to a long time ago (last year).

If you or anyone else sees any other changes from original which I may have omitted, just send me a PM about it/them, and I'll add it or clarify for you by PM - so as to not clutter up that topic any more than necessary.

Pat - a thought - maybe the best idea would be to just ask others to do what I did, and edit out their chit-chat & superfluous posts themselves, which then you or an Admin can delete completely. AFAIK the original poster cannot completely delete their own posts, otherwise I would've done that for you as well.
1970 Neun vierzehn
What I don't understand is why we (the O&H guys) have to make it so difficult for both seasoned, long term forum members and (especially) "newbies" who have just come aboard and are looking for how their particular 914s should look to return them to OEM configuration. confused24.gif

Pretend with me here for a minute......say you just bought a nice, but modestly modified 1972 914/4 and you want to know what you need to change/fix/replace to make it look original. Where are you going to look? Multiple "Nailed" threads that may or may not have the information (especially photos) that pertain to your specific model year? Frustration may very well set in after scrolling through multiple pages of just one thread and not finding what you need to know. Now our information seeker needs to go to the next nailed thread and scroll through another series of pages, hoping to find information in that thread.
And on, and on, and....

And then there is the very good"The few, the rare.." thread, but do our forum members even think to look there? And if they do, once again, scroll, scroll, scroll, with no guarantee that this thread will have the info that they are seeking.

Why is it so hard to have the nailed threads comprised of specific model years, consisting of photos and concise information with regard to that specific area displayed in the photos. A format that I have tried to illustrate with my recent 1970 "inspection" of my own car is the type of thread which I believe would serve the purpose of this O&H Forum best.

The very recent post by Tom with regards to the 1971/4, and the numerous photos of Pats' extremely original '72/4 could both be excellent starting points for their respective model years.

..........just sayin'.

Paul
Tom_T
Paul,

There is no reason why they couldn't be organized by MY, but then you've just culled each of the current nailed threads' topics into one per MY list that the person needs to scroll, scroll, scroll through to find say: bumpers, or whatever.

They're still scrolling through a ton of info per MY or per Area of the car/systems. Both have pros & cons, & both will be unwieldy as the data base grows for each sub-heading or topic of nailed threads.

If they're organized by MY, then you see everything on hand at that time for a particular MY - and some of that is repetitive (i.e.: some items apply to more than one MY), but you get no sense of what happened historically in the development of the 914s over time by component or system across MYs - such as bumpers, and how to identify if your 75 has backdated bumpers, for instance.

Whereas as currently organized by component of the car across all MYs you do get that sense, but then have to visit several topics for everything on your particular MY 914.

In my case for example, it was critical to ascertain that EVERYTHING option/group-wise was included on ALL USA early 914-2.0s marketed here as "914Ss" - which I wouldn't have necessarily gotten out of a 73 MY only nailed topic (but maybe it could have).

I don't know who started organizing, but I suspect they did it the way their brain thinks & works, so now there is a huge body of work organized with one filing system, and you want it under a different filing system. Neither is wrong or right, better or worse IMHO - but it is what we have to date to work with, and will take a huge effort to reorganize things - in addition to culling out the chit-chatty posts like I spent several hours last night doing for mine (maybe I'm just a bigger offender).

I just don't think it's all practical in a volunteer effort like this. JMHO! sad.gif
Pat Garvey
Still taking this all in.

We'll see who has the right "plan".

So...I'm watching, waiting & not commenting, unless I have a more brilliant idea.
dlkawashima
I don't know if this is even possible but can we have subtopics off a main topic? I used my mad photoshop skillz to help show what I mean.
Click to view attachment
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(dlkawashima @ Mar 26 2012, 11:34 PM) *

I don't know if this is even possible but can we have subtopics off a main topic? I used my mad photoshop skillz to help show what I mean.
Click to view attachment

Hmmmm.

Kinda like this idea. Some would wish to expand to other areas too. Could just work. Lotsa work, but I like.
tod914
Great idea Dave. Might as well do that for "the few" too. Subcats. with the owner's name maybe?
Tom_T
QUOTE(tod914 @ Mar 27 2012, 03:55 PM) *

Great idea Dave. Might as well do that for "the few" too. Subcats. with the owner's name maybe?


Year & Model & Engine would be most important at "The few...." sub-cats
- owners name maybe in the "B" part of the title?
1970 Neun vierzehn
QUOTE(dlkawashima @ Mar 26 2012, 09:34 PM) *

I don't know if this is even possible but can we have subtopics off a main topic? I used my mad photoshop skillz to help show what I mean.
Click to view attachment



I likes that! Best suggestion yet.

Paul
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(tod914 @ Mar 27 2012, 04:55 PM) *

Great idea Dave. Might as well do that for "the few" too. Subcats. with the owner's name maybe?

"Might as well...."

Look guys/girls, I want to make this more meaningful too. And I will.

But let's just take this a step at a time. I have limited hours available, and it's tax season (yes, I still do that) And I have a day job, so let's stay focused on the primary problem. OK?

Leave the other niggling problems until later.
Pat Garvey
OK, I spent some time today going through ols "nailed" posts.

And, I'm afraid!

Where do we draw the line on originality?
1. Is "original" to be strictly as delivered from thje factory?
2. Is the COA the bible?
3. Do dealer installed options constitute originality, regardles of COA?
4. Are period correct additions OK?
5. Is a repaint/restoration-to-original OK?
6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?
7. Are carpet, stereo speaker, non-period correct radios acceptable?
8. Side stripes, in both iterations

If I'm going to do this, it's going to be done ONCE!

Let's address some examples (owners not stated):
Carbs
Non-factory, but add-on items, such as luggage racks, bumper guards, etc
Speakers drilled into door panels
Non-factory exhaust (Bursch, etc)
Wood applique dash components
Conversion to euro spec F/R lenses, as well as shaving the US side marker lights without having a Euro delivery

These, and more, are the problems I'm facing.
If I hold "originaity" to it's definition there won't be more than a half dozen cars that I can spotlight. And there will be some flashback because I've eliminated some cars from the mix (including my own).

Help me out here. How strict do I need to be to satisfy the masses?

I could really piss off some buddies here.
Jasfsmith
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Mar 29 2012, 07:10 PM) *

OK, I spent some time today going through ols "nailed" posts.
Help me out here. How strict do I need to be to satisfy the masses?

I could really piss off some buddies here.


Go ahead. You've pissed me off for not having your car on the raod for so many years anyway. <grin>

A suggestion. Take the most original car of a MY. Then document the non original items, followed up by photos/info of how those specific items should look. Keep the owner's name out of it.

I suggest we tear your car apart first. <GRIN>
Tom_T
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Mar 29 2012, 04:10 PM) *

OK, I spent some time today going through ols "nailed" posts.

And, I'm afraid!

Where do we draw the line on originality?
1. Is "original" to be strictly as delivered from thje factory?
2. Is the COA the bible?
3. Do dealer installed options constitute originality, regardles of COA?
4. Are period correct additions OK?
5. Is a repaint/restoration-to-original OK?
6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?
7. Are carpet, stereo speaker, non-period correct radios acceptable?
8. Side stripes, in both iterations

If I'm going to do this, it's going to be done ONCE!

Let's address some examples (owners not stated):
Carbs
Non-factory, but add-on items, such as luggage racks, bumper guards, etc
Speakers drilled into door panels
Non-factory exhaust (Bursch, etc)
Wood applique dash components
Conversion to euro spec F/R lenses, as well as shaving the US side marker lights without having a Euro delivery

These, and more, are the problems I'm facing.
If I hold "originaity" to it's definition there won't be more than a half dozen cars that I can spotlight. And there will be some flashback because I've eliminated some cars from the mix (including my own).

Help me out here. How strict do I need to be to satisfy the masses?

I could really piss off some buddies here.


Pat -

I think that it's most appropriate to stick with what PCA Concours rules currently state, which is factory original plus any "wear-&-tear replacement" items & "period correct personalization" items (I can look up & cut-n-paste the exact rules from the latest PCA docs. if you want).

That way it is consistent with what IS the standard for PCA Parade (not what somebody thinks PCA's rules should be), and we are giving proper guidance to 914 owners & restorers for competition in such events.

Although, we should also give a disclaimer that other organizations may have stricter rules, and to research their Concours d'Elegance rules for same.

However, I would then go ahead & show the "period correct" source for the "personalization" item(s) (options & accessories), & show the "non-personalized condition" (when possible) for reference - as well as doing what you told me to do when posting the 71 914/4 & clearly list what were the changes (as I tried to do at "The few, the rare..." for that car - wood dash facing as the example).

BTW - I'm not fond of the wood dash faces & turned aluminum threshold plates myself - nor was the OO, but the dealer had it on & offered a "deal" as-is price, and OO was then a starving college student with a set amount of insurance money from his wrecked 57 Chevy (so I understand).

Things like period correct dealer or aftermarket A/C, luggage racks, bumper over-riders bar, Porsche Crests on hoods & shift knobs, center consoles & cushions/storage boxes, radios/speakers & antennas, side stripes, etc. could all be purchased from the dealers & other sources back then, & either installed by the dealers - and so would be allowed by PCA rules, and should therefore be allowed here, although with clearly pointing out the changes.

Heck - even the "holy grail" in O&H's "The few, the rare...." - 2L Steve's Sahara Beige 73 has aftermarket but period correct Coco Mats in it! ...nice touch IMHO! smile.gif

The COA cannot be the "bible" - cuz as you know they have too many errors, and are mute on certain "included options" - such as the Appearance/Comfort Group & Performance/Sport Group of options being included on most 73 914-2.0s, or on 74 LEs; not to mention egregious errors like misinterpreting the interior color codes (my 73 2L) & optional equipment from Norway on a USA 914 (your 72 /4)! dry.gif

A well done resto should be allowed - if properly done - since this is a matter of CdE ""class" as to whether it qualifies as "Preservation" (80% original), vs. the other classes (Full, Street, Wash-n-Shine & equivalents) For example: the 71 914/4 with the 90-95% original paint qualifies under PCA rules for "Preservation Class" - while your more original looking 72 914/4 was resprayed a number of years ago IIRC, so no longer qualifies for preservation, but is considered "restored" under PCA CdE rules. Both are allowed under PCA rules - so a properly done one of either should be allowed IMHO.

I would say that Resto/Mod items are iffy - such as building a Euro Spec 914 from a USA one (lenses, shaved sidemarkers) - unless certain items are NLA (as USA lenses were for awhile), but then you'll have to allow for non-OEM repros of certain items NLA (as I believe PCA Parade does, but may cost points in certain situations). Maybe only if no other good examples of pure original are available, and then back it up with pix of "correct" items from other 914s &/or old 70's Porsche+Audi & VW-Porsche marketing materials, ads, factory photos (your collection of these would make another excellent nailed topic too BTW), etc.

Otherwise, IMHO most "Resto/Mod 914s" are well covered in the Garage forum - and don't need to be covered here - except as perhaps to show how a Euro, French, Italian or other specially fitted 914 would look - in the absence of a better "true" example.

I'm not sure if at Parade they would place a Euro-spec or other racer/etc. "tribute" 914 in the special class, but it probably wouldn't in our Zone 8 ones unless it had major changes - e.g: a /4 converted to a M471 or 914/6GT "tribute car" - or a re-engined /4 with a /6 or big Raby/FAT Perf. racer with fuel cell, rollbars, or even a carb'ed /4, etc. (I'd help place a 914/4 carb'd FAT/Raby 2270c racer & 912 with a FAT 914/4 2.0 both into "special interest" class last year at our PCA OCR concours).

Mufflers & exhaust are another good example of NLA - where SS HEs & non-original OES mufflers are available, although Dansk is now a "factory authorized" & an accepted OEM supplier, but they weren't OEM on the 914s from the factory AFAIK. For example: the reason there is a non-original muffler on the 71 914/4 is that the factory 1.7 mufflers were NLA & Dansk hadn't started reproducing them yet, when it was replaced (although it's been on the OO's to do list since available).

Similarly, I wouldn't discount here if they upgraded from OE Boge shocks/strut inserts - to period correct Bilstein or Koni - since they were available new, could've been a dealer upgrade &/or wear replacement item (for example: I did upgrade my 73 2L to Konis when it came time in 1980, and many others have too with those & Bilsteins).

Likewise, tires are the same thing - 914-2.0s were delivered with certain mfgrs'. 165HR15 Tubeless Tires, but none of those are available today from any of the 1970's OEM suppliers, so you have to choose between non-OEM Vredestein 165HR15 tubeless, OEM Michelin non-correct speed rating XZX 165SR15 tubeless, or non-tubeless XAS 165HR15 Tube-type tires, or non-OEM & unavailable at the period speed rating Bridgestone/Firestone or Kumho 165TR15 tubeless tires, or period correct Michi upgrade 185/70VR15 tubeless (also a factory option on 914-6s & /4s), or the subsequent 1990's factory letter recommendation to dealers for 195/65HR15 tubeless tires - at this point in time.

I don't see non-OEM tires or wheels eliminating a 914 from O&H here, because they wouldn't be by PCA under the personalization & wear allowances/exemptions, but they could be gigged for them &/or lose in a tie-breaker. So those facts need to be pointed out.

When stuff wears out you need to replace it, and PCA recognizes that fact of life, and won't generally penalize someone for it - although it could possibly get used as a tie-breaker.

Speakers in doors - let's really try to avoid those types of hack jobs, although a period correct radio with "modern" speakers installed in the factory housings - so long as they're covered by original or similar factory acoustic foam provided in the housings' grills should be okay - & not with blaring through with shiny "show off" metal or plasti-chrome bits (as in the 71 /4 I posted - I suggested to OO to spray those damn speakers flat black or dark grey & add some acoustic foam back in BTW).

I'm not sure what you meant by: "6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?" - but taking a guess that this meaning folks "upgrading" their 914s to appearance group items (fogs, vinyl, chrome bumpers) or interior color changes, etc., etc. which would be not as originally delivered on a particular 914 ..... well according to Rick Perkins, Regional Service Mgr. for Porsche who had worked in several top SoCal dealerships in 69-76 when our 914s were for sale new, they could & would change anything to customer request, including: full interior swaps (color changes) inside 45 mins., fogs/horns & bumpers changes, wheels, center consoles, on & on....

So I think that these changes would be accepted as "personalization" &/or "as delivered options" that could only come into play at Parade under challenge for a tie or very close finish.

More thorny are gray areas like:
> What do you do if you cannot find your original interior materials anymore - such as my "#31 Beige interior with Basketweave #501/Smooth Leatherette #502" (NOT tan folks) with Dark Tan #503 loop pile carpet - are you better off to get a close as possible match in today's materials, or switch to the more widely available OEM/NOS or repro materials for a "#11 Black" interior? My preference would be the former in the same colors, but why penalize someone for choosing the latter? And I don't know which would be preferred at Parade level for a tie-breaker, but presume resto to a "close to original" color would trump.

> On the other hand, back dating 73-74 or 75-76 bumpers to earlier ones would not be considered original & generally shouldn't be sown in "The few, the rare..."; and technically speaking the filled-in lic. plate holes on the red 71 /4's front bumper is neither original/correct nor legal in CA & many states, but isn't worth disqualifying an otherwise pristine survivor - either on here nor at PCA, although it would probably get gigged, unless/until the were re-drilled/punched.

Perhaps a nailed topic which contains the current PCA Concours rules would be in order - or at least with a link to same, in order to have everyone understand what PCA CdE judges will look at.

Hopefully I've addressed your questions & concerns IMHO 2 cents worth. If not, just fire back a specific question.

I'm curious how others think & feel?
popcorn[1].gif
Tom_T
Also, how about a nailed topic which has the resto & O&H references in it - like this?

SAMPLE:

You can buy this 1st book below with almost all of the auto magazines' 914 articles (all B&W reproductions), or in he earlier version (different cover) - which book is also copyright protected & has the R&T, MT, etc. copyright permission for reprint. That book was about $40 IIRC, less online discounts, etc. (I think I paid around $25-30 in 2010).

Period Auto Publications' articles on & coverage of the 914s:

Click to view attachment < The old ed. cover was blue or green & called something like: "Gold Portfolio"

.

Some other good 914 Resto references to have on the ole 914 shelf are:

Restoration & Originality Resources:

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment < new & old covers
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment < there were old covers also for these

.

Factory Docs. & Manuals:

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

< + The Owners, Emissions, Radio, A/C, Dealers, etc. Manuals for your MY/model 914

.

Aftermarket Repair & Maintenance Guides:

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

.

<END SAMPLE>

. Then others can add additional suggested ones in regular topics, which the MOD could then add to the nailed topic as appropriate.

shades.gif
Pat Garvey
Most of the pub's you've mentioned I have not read. Doc Johnson'e book has errors in it, so I would have to point them out.

I don't see how anyone could fault the factory workshop manuals.

Regardless, there are larger "fish to fry" here, and publications will be lower on the list.
Pat Garvey
I'm not sure what you meant by: "6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?" - but taking a guess that this meaning folks "upgrading" their 914s to appearance group items (fogs, vinyl, chrome bumpers) or interior color changes, etc., etc. which would be not as originally delivered on a particular 914 ..... well according to Rick Perkins, Regional Service Mgr. for Porsche who had worked in several top SoCal dealerships in 69-76 when our 914s were for sale new, they could & would change anything to customer request, including: full interior swaps (color changes) inside 45 mins., fogs/horns & bumpers changes, wheels, center consoles, on & on....

Yep, they did it everywhere.

I've told this story before, but when I went to pick my new 914 up I noticed that the wheels & tires did not conform to the app grp specs(they were 4.5 inchers, not 5.5). Told the saleman, Frank Bork (amazing what you remember or forget!) that I wouldn't accept delivery. He offerred a set of Fuchs alloys from the brand new 2 liter car just arrived for another $300 (which I couldn't afford),or a Burch exhaust and a wait for the proper wheels & tires. I took the latter, got the Burch exhaust system, which eventually destroyed my rear snowplow, and got the proper wheels/tires 2 months later.

Yep, the dealers & salesmen were swapping anything/everything to make a buck back then. Not so easy these days.

Yeah, this aspect would make an interestinf thread, but not nailed.

Not certain where this idea is going yet, but I know it's going to take a LOT of work and some hurt feelings.

Some nice cars may be eliminted from the threads....my 914 included.

The whole thing will be hard thought. That's why I MUST HAVE more input from others.

Now, one other point. I WILL NOT remake these threads to the tune of PCA rules! I'm a 40 year member of PCA , and totally disagree with their rules for concours, to the point of maybe not renewing.

PCA has become such a ruling beurocracy, and I hate it. Used to be fun, but now it's so much drudgery to prep a car for the Parade. I Chaired the '93 Parade concours and it was still simple. Car clean/prepped? Original/not? Gigged at the judges discretion for both. It was simple, and the locals ran the event. They've ruined it. I may go again, but will never compete.

Ah, rant over. Feel better now.
1970 Neun vierzehn
QUOTE(Jasfsmith @ Mar 30 2012, 08:49 AM) *



A suggestion. Take the most original car of a MY. Then document the non original items, followed up by photos/info of how those specific items should look. Keep the owner's name out of it.




agree.gif Short, easy and concise.

As an example.....if the best picture of a 197X door panel shows a radio speaker, keep it, note the variation from OEM, and when a correct image of the aforementioned door panel surfaces, delete the incorrect pic and accompanying disclaimer, and you(we) are just left with only a correct picture of a 197X door panel. No point in keeping incorrect images if a photo showing OEM equipment becomes available at some later time.

Paul
Tom_T
QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ Mar 30 2012, 05:07 PM) *

QUOTE(Jasfsmith @ Mar 30 2012, 08:49 AM) *



A suggestion. Take the most original car of a MY. Then document the non original items, followed up by photos/info of how those specific items should look. Keep the owner's name out of it.




agree.gif Short, easy and concise.

As an example.....if the best picture of a 197X door panel shows a radio speaker, keep it, note the variation from OEM, and when a correct image of the aforementioned door panel surfaces, delete the incorrect pic and accompanying disclaimer, and you(we) are just left with only a correct picture of a 197X door panel. No point in keeping incorrect images if a photo showing OEM equipment becomes available at some later time.

Paul

agree.gif

... good idea, disclaimers + show pic of what the unadulterated item should look like - even if it's just a reprint from that MY's sales brochure.

I plan to do that for the red 71 /4, but haven't had time to find the correct items' pix yet.

BTW - if the owner is posting, then you see his/her screen name anyway, and whatever else they put in their sig & the post itself. Then it's no harm-no foul IMHO.
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(dlkawashima @ Mar 26 2012, 11:34 PM) *

I don't know if this is even possible but can we have subtopics off a main topic? I used my mad photoshop skillz to help show what I mean.
Click to view attachment

Dave,

The consensus is that we like the format you've provided. I've gained the ability to make this work (hopefully!). With your permission, can we use your format for the new nailed threads? It will take a little time becasuse we all have day jobs, but I think you've nailed it.
Pat
dlkawashima
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Apr 18 2012, 05:37 PM) *

Dave,

The consensus is that we like the format you've provided. I've gained the ability to make this work (hopefully!). With your permission, can we use your format for the new nailed threads? It will take a little time becasuse we all have day jobs, but I think you've nailed it.
Pat


Of course, go for it. Look forward to seeing the revised format.
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(dlkawashima @ Apr 19 2012, 03:32 AM) *

QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Apr 18 2012, 05:37 PM) *

Dave,

The consensus is that we like the format you've provided. I've gained the ability to make this work (hopefully!). With your permission, can we use your format for the new nailed threads? It will take a little time becasuse we all have day jobs, but I think you've nailed it.
Pat


Of course, go for it. Look forward to seeing the revised format.

Thanks! Should be forethcoming, with additions.
Pat Garvey
UPDATE!

First, subtopics are out! Don't know the spcifics of this nut suppose that they are hogs and unmanageable.

However, I've been working with McMark (Admin), who has provided a pretty workable substitute (I think). Mark has alo provided a "plyaground" where I can test formats offline and bring them into the O&H forum when ready.

Snippets from the original nailed threads will be utilized, but expansion of content will occur. It's not going to be an easy task, and slow, but we'll get it done.

The nailed threads will be just that - nailed. In fact, they'll be locked. Comments and suggestions will be considered, and maybe incorporated, but they'll need to be made outside of those threads. Since I am n expert on all models of 914's, I will probably need input as to the validity of some requests.

Posts made available to the individual closed threads will be judged as to relevancy by all posters. They may or mat not be included. This will not be a wiki, and it will be my final attempt at pleasing and informing all (good luck to me with that).

It's in the works. It isn't going to happen overnight. Your input is not only appreciated, but requested.

Pray for me!
Pat
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