I wouldn't mind some input from the USA if possible.
Down here in NZ 914's are a rarety and my 75 2.0 is the only one I have really been close to and there are no others handy to check out.
I am bare metalling the car to go back to original- so paint strip, rust kill, etch prime etc.
I have noticed when I have been scraping the paint off the panels ( it's had three repaints)that the door panels have a hell of a lot of flex. The rear guards have a small amount, the fronts not too bad, but the doors! Are they all like this. There doesn't seem to be any side bars inside and they flex probably as much as 1/4 inch in the softest patches.
The doors are absolutely rust free and original paint right back to the first coats so it doesn't look like there has been any bodgy repairs.
So, question is this normal and if so filling and fairing must be tricky as it seems a difficult job bogging a flexi surface and then boarding it down to a fair surface?
Thanks

Yes, the relatively flat & thin panel skins were/are notorious for flex, & therefore prone to door dings, folks leaning on deck lids, push starts using the edge of the rear trunk/deck lid, etc. It's what helped keep our 914s around 2200 pounds!

I'd suggest using minimal pressure & lots of care when sanding on those door skins & other panels - or better yet, use a media blasting or chemical stripper which won't require your hand/arm pressure. If you need to push areas out, the sand-bag/beanbag technique is one that the best body guys use on them (I am nowhere near a master nor practitioner of the craft, but have seen it done expertly).

BTW - great work by your All Blacks last Fall!
... although the rucking has sure changed from my days in the 1970s-80s & looks more like loitering now!!??

Cheers!
Tom
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Thanks Tom. That's really helpful to know. The AB's made hard work of the final and a win is a win I guess. I agree the game has changed bigtime too. I played seriously mostly late 60's and 70's and doubt I could play the modern game. Wingers in rucks? Not likely!
I have been using a chemical stripper but even so it still flexs a bit. I am going to etch prime stage and then the local painter will take over. One of the fenders needs some stretching and smoothing out and the doors will need to be sand bagged I imagine.
Regards
Richard

Richard,

I've also found that you can gently push some doors/lids/panels with an open hand on the back side (not backside ) to return to shape - if you accidentally push it in while sanding/working/etc. on it. But be careful & don't force it if it doesn't want to pop back easily.

There's also a heat shock method using the metal's "memory" to make them spring back to original stamped shape by heating bare metal with a blow torch (after all paint stripped from the area), & then "shocking" with cold water. My Uncle used to do it on his Ford Model A Hot Rods, back in the 60's when I helped him work on them some - but it's best left to "the masters" if you've not done or seen it done before.

I didn't pick up the "nasty habit" of Rugger here in the States until college in 1970-74, then played our Div I Club B's & some A's to 85 (your Div IV or V equivalent I'd guess ), then a Grad School club 2 years, & then Old Boys until `96. We had quite a few Kiwi teammates over the years, as well as ABs, Islanders - esp. from American Samoa, Brits, Irish, Scots, Welsh & even an ex-Foreign Legion Frog officer!

So I played thru the changes & didn't like it much because it took too much of my defensive game away as a Scrumhalf. As a Halfback & also spent a good deal of time at the bottom of rucks dodging aluminum spikes too!

Wingers today are the size of 5/8ths, 3/4s & Loosies!!!!

Your Blacks were way overdue for the cup, after 24 years coming in #1 seed to not! Although I was hoping the Welshmen would make to the finals - especially after the ABs lost so many at 1st 5/8th!

Cheers!
Tom
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PS - a small magnet run over the painted surface is another trick to find where POs or their shops put the Bondo & body putty crap!

Then you'll know where to "dig deeper" to get that crap off to get down to bare metal, and where you may have more body panel straightening &/or rust repair to do.

Early on in the 73 model year, all of the doors got reinforcing beams on the inside, just under the skin. They're heavy, but they are to help (a bit) with side intrusion into the car. Sometimes they get removed, but as they're welded in they do leave some evidence that they used to be there.

And sometimes someone swaps in an early-73 door because they're lighter while still having the later windows and window lifts.

--DD

Dave & Richard - that era of the early no side impact beam with late window regulator doors lasted up to about Oct-Nov-Dec 72 production of the 73s, as they used "beamless" or lighter doors up before the US DOT side impact rule became effective Jan 1 73 IIRC.

Also, Richar's was an RoW 75, so they may have continued to use the lighter & cheaper late doors without side impact beams on non-USA 914s well after the US DOT mandated the switch.

However, apparently many, most or all of the factory replacement parts doors had no side beams (possibly not regulated to have them) & were used in accident & rust repairs, so some later MY 914s can have the light late doors - even from the USA 914s.

This is in addition to guys swapping to lighter doors for weight savings & performance reasons which Dave mentions.

Interesting. There are definately no side beams and it is a US 75, 2.0. I brought it in from Flagstaff CO and before that it was a CA car.
I don't think the doors are retro fitted as the paint layers I have worked through on the door is the same as the fenders. i.e. original Anacona Blue metallic, one repaint same colur over the top and two more over the top in a dark blue.

Oh Dear! Had another look this evening and there are two panel stiffeners each side about half way up. Maybe they have become detached at the welds in an accident and aren't doing the job. I will take a closer look tomorrow. Thanks anyway.

Richard,

That's about the right position in the upper 1/3 or 1/2 of the door, since they're not really panel stiffeners - but side impact protection for driver & passenger, so placed appropriately for maximum accident protection.

In fact, if I recall there is about a 1/4" space between the skin panel & bar - except where welded at the ends. So you won't get much - if any - stiffening of the outer skins from them.

And since the body panels on 914s are so flat & smooth - lacking the body creases/folds & formed panel curvatures that you see in most modern cars today to stiffen the even thinner sheet metal - they have always had a good deal of flex. Even the curves of the more rounded 911/912 & Bugs/Ghias of the day gave them more bend resistant panels, but their flat areas are also susceptible to flex like the panels on 914s.

No worries on those doors!
... just hope that the rust & bondo are minimal!

Cheers!
Tom
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Not sure but most cars with side beams had some large dabs of urothane seam sealer between the inside door skin and the beam. This could have dried up in the AZ heat. You could carefully drill a couple holes through the beam and pump in some urothane calk to act as a stiffener for the skin. Just let it dry for a week or so before flexing the skin and it should help. Use a drill stop so you don't accidentally punch an out dent in your skin.

If I may expand on your topic...
I just did my first dent removal on my door and noticed the same flex.
Maybe it was not the best place to be learning.
I had a hard time getting the proper curve back in the door.
It seemed different in the warm day and at night.
I ended up with about .020 of filler in spots.
I am worried that will show up after paint.

I was wondering if laying down a layer of 6oz FG cloth on the inside of the door may be a good idea to back it up against dents.

Also what is a good way to get that tar off the inside of the door?

I'm wondering this too. I've got a lot of rust underneath it.

I would be careful glassing the inside unless you are sure that the shape is dead right on the outside. Once the glass goes off it would be very hard to get rid of a bulge. I like the idea of firing some expandable foam in there but again, too much might push the panel out. However, if the beams are only welded at the ends then maybe it will release out under the beams and not point load the panel.
Tricky one isn't it?
And Tom, thankfully, although there was a lot of bog, there is no rust whatsoever in the doors. The only rust I have found is in the gap between the top rear of the guards and the panel that goes across in front of the windscreen. I actuall have a couple of small holes which I am planning to clean up, rust kill and glass!!! I can't afford the whole panel off and reweld thing and I am already overcapitalising the poor little car. But when finished I think it will ,look a million bucks to me anyway. And of course it's the journey as much as the destination which is fun.

My doors don't have the beams so glass is easy if no tar and yes dead on shape.
One layer of glass should not get very hot on cure.
At this point, I guess I am looking for a reason not to. for a little extra weight I think it would be considerably more solid.
Even with a beam, if you have a gap, glass may be doable. The foam would worry me. I would think it should be very flexible.

Well if you are sure your doors are in perfect shape and you want to stiffen the panels why not use the old boatbuilding method that we use to stiffen bow sections where you have large unsupported panel areas.
Get a small postal tube and cut it in half through the length of the tube ( so you have two semi circle pieces).
Lay the piece lengthwise on the inside of the door in a tunnel type position and tack it down with some car bog (sparingly) just to hold it in place and then lay strips of Chopped strand mat over the "mould" and resin it all in place. You might even find it better to lay it over the tar on the inside if it is well keyed to the metal.

Guys - I'd be very concerned about adding either Foam or FGRC into doors or anywhere on a 914 or older pre-hot-dipped car body which is prone to rust, which our 914s & all pre-77 P-cars are!

Even new seals in those doors will let some water inside - which is why they have those drain holds on the bottom. Anything that attracts & holds moisture could be a future problem.

Richard - I would strongly advise that you not FG those rust spots on the cowl nor anywhere else, & instead of doing costly full panel replacements, just do smaller cut-n-weld sheet metal repair pieces. If you're not adept at welding, then get a buddy or shop who is to help out with those spot repairs.

Other than the water retention concerns - there is a differential heat expansion between metal & FG, as well as a differential flex problem between the 2 materials which can & probably will lead to cracking & repair failure.

It will also devalue your car by having an amateurish "shade tree repair" on your 914, which will generally be frowned upon by future buyer prospects, and then you become "that DAPO" who did the repair.

Even if you are a bit upside-down today in the repair costs vs. current value, a proper & well done welded sheet metal patch repair will both last much longer & bring you better value in 5-10 years as 914s resume their appreciation as collector cars, once this worldwide recession ebbs (it's already starting to happen from what I'm seeing in NADA values here in the USA).

Believe me - I KNOW!
I had a pro-shop do a rolling resto rust repair & repaint on my 73 914-2.0 back in 4/80 then drive it until 5/85 when a gal whacked it in a parking garage, then it was stored since in my dry SoCal garage - but most of the rust repairs came back with a vengeance because the shop shortchanged me by using metalicized polymeric filler - instead of leading or welded patches as instructed & paid for by me!!!!

My advice is not to take short cuts - as well as doing a proper rust preventative sheetmetal treatment & quality primer/sealer/paint job, & your 914's resto will better stand the test of time, as well as getting best dollar (NZ) whenever you sell it in the future.

Unfortunately, it costs more to properly restore an older car of any marque from this era than most will be worth immediately when done - and only the most expensive "project cars" to start with end up gaining enough value to cover resto costs today (e.g.: 356s, older 911s, some Jags, Ferraris & Lambo's, etc.).

The truth is that the car resto hobby is NOT a good investment plan!!!!

Cheers!
Tom
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I understand Tom, So would we have to take the fenders off to get a piece welded in. The hole is right inside the join between the fender(we call them guards) and the body?

I don't think so Richard. You'd just cut them out with a plasma torch or metal cutaway saw then match the patch piece to fir.

There are several topics in the Garage by the bodywork Gurus on here, like: Rick 918-S, McMark, Scotty B & Neunvirzen showing those cut-out patches in various areas, if you wanted to search thru them, & they'll give you pix of how they did it.

It sounds like yours is between the guard/fender & Cowl (in front of the windscreen on the part where the cabin/cockpit air intake vent it in the middle).

The best thing to do is to take some good pix of your rust areas, & post it in a new topic asking the question on the best way to repair that area(s), then those guru's & others will jump in. Ask them to post their repair pix too FYI.

Cheers!
Tom
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Post photos so we can see what your up against.

...and he magically appears.....

Thanx Rick!

I'll try tonight

Hi ya tom! I've been busy. I have a hard time keeping up.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentSorry, these aren't great shots. On the RHS there is a hole that is pretty clear. I don't see a problem with this one welding a small patch. It's the holes further back on both sides that concern me. I can't see how you would get a weld down inside the join.
Hopefull the pics will work.

Bump?

Very poor photos but I think I get what your doing. If the gaurd is the panel with the hole take a butane torch and warm the seam sealer on the inside of the gaurd you will find it is packed with seam sealer. Here's a photo of the area. I just re sealed this gaurd. You can then clean this up real good with a wire brush and cut the rust out make your patch and weld it from inside the wheel well. Hope this suggestion helps.

Click to view attachment

I'm not sure you saw this thread from a couple days ago but maybe it will help. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=177500

Thanks Rick. I will take a look at the problem from the other side. That's really helpful. Never thought to attack it from that side.