This car is nice

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....threadid=109715

WOW!!!

Pretty nice.

Still a 2.7

Could have/should have rebuilt a 3.0 for the same price.


B

Brad,
Why do you say that? I'm just curious, because when I mentioned to my mechanic that I would like a 3.0+, he insisted that he could build me a 2.7 that would make me forget about anything bigger. Plus I wouldn't need to modify the flywheel or get whatever conversion needed.

Your mechanic wants to make money and build an engine for you (bottom line here)

I haven't met a person in the Porsche industry that would "talk" somebody out of a 3.0 over anything smaller. Porsche made leaps and bounds with the 3.0 engine. I just looked at a cherry 911 SC with 280k miles on a never opened 3.0 engine.. I see it all the time in this area.. I NEVER see this with 2.7 cars. 99% of them have been rebuilt.

Let me dig in a little here... does he "happen" to have a 2.7 that he could rebuild for you ?? Just curious.

I have a core 3.0 engine with ONE broken head stud and 250k miles in it (never apart) I'll sell it for 2500$. Now.. the basic engine price is higher by say.. 1000$ but the rebuild will cost you exactly the same as it would to build a 2.7... I'm starting with a 3.0

The flywheels are 250$ (and I see them on Ebay go for less)

Print this off and run it past him.. unless he is a relative..LOL

B

The one extra cost item that I can think of when putting a 3.0 in over a 2.7 is that you will NEED to get an external oil cooler for the 3.0. I think you can get by without with a 2.7. You might need to make up a GT engine lid tho....

You can take the proper steps and build a 2.7 that will hold together pretty well...shuffle pin and time-sert it. I think the jury's still out on head studs--you kind of have to ask yourself whether it's better to break a stud or have it pull out. I'd prefer the former.

One of these days, I'd like to put together at 2.7RS or a 2.8, but for reliability and driveability's sake I'd go for the 3.0 in a heartbeat...just sweet engines.

I've heard people say that a 2.7 is about all a 914 can really handle. This guy who wants to build the engine, he wouldn't be Ike Bruckman, by any chance, would he?

Yeah.. cool... the oil cooler debate..

We run stock oil coolers on everything up to 3.2 (we track a serious 3.0 liter car that I have to block the remote cooler to get to temp)

Someone in Texas or southern states that plans to drive it in stop/go traffic daily.. will probably need a remote cooler (probably)

I argue this all the time..its fun.


B

We've found (in LA that is) 2.7's that need rebuilds for $600. I think Leamon got one once for $400. This was a few years ago when nobody wanted them.
-Mike D.

can you fit a 2.4 S mfi engine back there? or does the mech. FI have stuff thats too hard to get to?

It's been done. A few of the 916s had them, and I've driven one or two MFI 2.4 914-6es. And Michel Richard up in Montreal has an MFI 2.2L 914-6 conversion. Yum yum! The only real difficulty is supplying warm air to the warm-up regulator.

--DD

Wow. Really, Brad? Up to 3.2 without an external oil cooler? I always heard that engines in 914s tend to run hotter than if they were in a 911 chassis. It makes sense to me that you end up with less air flow, perhaps even a vacuum in the mid-engine setup. I heard of 914-6 owners back in the day popping engine lids as they drove to bring temps down, and these were 2 liter engines that were running so hot. You'd figure that if the factory thought it necessary to run an oil cooler (or even the hokey trombone setup) in 911SCs and even some 911Ses, then it's even more wise to do something of the like in a 914.

As to the MFI setup, it's a lovely thing if everything is right. If the pump is calibrated and working properly, if the butterflies are tight, and if you're knowledgeable enough to mess with it. Otherwise, it can be a big pain in the a**. To work in a 914, you probably have to weld a small tube into your original 914-6 heat exchanger sheet metal (NO!) and cut a hole into your sheet metal for the belt drive to the fuel injection pump (NO! Again!) Sorry, it hurts to have factory stuff cut up for this purpose.

I hear you.. We beat the beejesus out of the 3.0 carbed car at Buttonwillow on 100 degree days and it would take 15-18 minutes of full throttle driving before it got into the 230 range (NO external cooler) and this isnt pussy footing around the course.. this highly respectable times for the class the car ran in.

I think what has changed: OIL. We run Mobil1 synthetic or Amzoil racing synthetic oil.

The plan was to race the car in PCA club racing.. so we decided to do a front mounted cooler. Nice one. Nice lines.. everything needed to do it correctly (GT style) I end up blocking it off if the temp outside is under 90.

Maybe the 2.7's run hotter. I have no idea. I do know that both engines where assembled with Turbo oil pumps and 3mm squirters...

I have NO idea why we get away with what we do. I do agree peak power is made around 195-205 degrees (at least on our dyno pulls) but the lap times didnt suffer as it got into the 230 range.

Something to think about. I like talking about it.. because I have been told my hole life what I should and shouldnt do with these cars.. and I found out half the people never tested anything they where telling me. It was all word of mouth and what so and so said.


I believe nothing and question everything.

B

I thought the cooling fan was the weak link in the 2.7. I thought i remembered something about plastic parts failing causing over heating.

The weak link in the 2.7 is the magnesium case being bored out to the limit. Now take a soft material and leave it without much meat to hold head studs with, then complicate affairs with thermal reactors and, yes, a 5 blade fan, and you get some interesting results. Basically, the heat did its toll on the 2.7 cases.

I wouldn't use any 2.7 case to build a motor unless it was shuffle-pinned, time-serted, and align-bored. Or if it was a bored out aluminum case (with piston squirters, please?)

B, isn't this the same car that in three laps I got to 245deg at T-hill last June???? I was driving Scott around and we had to come in because of the temps.

-Tony

Same.. car.. we had been beating on it all day for 6-7 hours straight switching between drivers. It had no chance to actually cool down.

When I make reference to it.. I'm basically explaining the most extreme case versus a street car that never sees the track or AutoX. I drove the car "prior" to front mounted cooler to and from North bay..sitting in traffic.. blah blah.. never over 200.

The car needed a oil cooler but its not needed for a street car with the same engine.

B

Brad, do you monitor head temps too? Not that it helps the argument for external oil coolers, but it's an issue that's so often neglected. Low oil temps do not necessarily translate to low head temps. In the absence of external oil coolers, do you take steps to increase airflow onto the engine bay?

None. The last head temps where taken on the dyno (stail ass air in a little room at Jerry Woods) No extra steps are taken (like a GT engine lid) for cooling. Stock 3.0 fan driven from a stock 3.0 pulley. Factory 6 chassis with factory 6 tank and oil lines (up to the point where the cooler was added)

I have no idea why the car stay's "normal" Nothing special in the timing... it is jetted a little rich.

Car has been beat on "badly" for 3 years... gone thru 2 trannies. The car was chassis dyno'd after two years and found to have "nearly" the same HP/Torque that it had on Woods dyno when it was all tuned in (using a 12% drive train loss)


B

I'm not an oil expert -- my 911 heats up the worst in stop and go traffic. Actually, sitting at idle is the worst. When it's moving (and air is moving across the relatively weak cooler -- new one waiting to go in), it doesn't do too bad and at speed, it's pretty good.

ymmv.

kim.

When did you buy a 911 ??


B

Ok. Ok. The 930.

It's just a swollen 911.

kim.

"eet's not uh toomah"

yeah... tell us what year 930... (non intercooled style...) unless you added a intercooler to it.

They ran hot "all the time"... we just live in a mild climate that is semi friendly to the non intercooled cars..


B

Baby, it's a '76. First year. Intercoolers screwup the beautiful tail. And yes, with that marvellous trombone style oli cooler (what were they thinking), it seems to be happiest somewhere north of 80mph.

So I do have a replacement for the trombone -- just haven't got around to installing it just yet (on the todo list which seems to be a bit long.....)

(actually, I'd consider playing with an intercooler if I can keep the stock tail -- project for another time. This car runs -- I'm not allowed to fiddle with it until the other ones do too :-)

But man, it hates sitting at idle.

kim.

I think I recall reading about an early Ruf car that had a small tail and had the intercooler(s) mounted down low. Stealthy.

I'm putting a mondo front cooler in my car. We could see track temps of 120+ this summer. I don't see doing a day full of half-hour sessions in that kind heat without some serious cooling, and a large quantity of good synth oil. I may have to block off the inlet grille in cool weather, but that's no biggie. Air temps at Willow Springs range from <30F to >110F during a typical year. You just hafta deal with it.

I recently saw a intercooled turbo fit under a RS style ducktail...
I'd if it fits under that, it should fit under most anything

cheers,

Jeroen

All this talk of blocking off a front cooler brings up a question I had. Do you now have a t-stat on these cars that require blocking the cooler? And if so, why would you need to block it off?

I appreciate pointers/pics when you run across them. Certainly, in the 80's, there were folk building adapted intercoolers for the early turbos (so I'm told). I've not seen one personally, but I've heard tell of such things.

Certainly something that fits inside an RS ducktail would be interesting!

kim.

Hey Kim,

Here's the link...
Click on "meine autos" on the left
and then click on the 2,8 RSR
(it actually has a 930 engine with intercooler)

cheers,

Jeroen

I'm a newbie to this external cooler stuff, but I think the concept is that your t-stat will open at say 180F and then allow the mondo cooler to prevent the oil from reaching "optimum" at around 210-220F. So you can play with duct tape to try to hold 210F or whatever temp you're shooting for. If somebody made an adjustable t-stat, that might be neat.

Sorry.. Gint. I stopped following the thread..

ChrisC nailed it. Bottom line is to get the oil up to temp and keep it there.


B

Thanks Chris and Brad