I am in the process of purchasing my first 914 . It has a 4 lug setup all-around. I know that I'm going to have to replace the brakes and the rotors, including possibly new rotors all around.

Can anyone who has done the 5 lug conversion (by switching to 914 suspension) will cost? is it worth it?

Any input is greatly appreciated

Also, is there a "kit" ready for this upgrade somewhere, or do I have to visit my friendly wrecking yard?

GPR sells a kit for the rear hubs. Figure on about $2K to do it right - 911 front end, nice wheels, turbo tie rods, new bushings, ball joints, brake hoses, bearings, pads rotors, etc.

one of the members here (eric shea) also does rear hub machining and trailing arm machining too. i tallied it up and spent a little over 1500 to do it all the right way

Keep in mind it can be done for less.. I did mine for about 500...

Also keep in mind, that if you start the upgrade path... plan to never "finish" the upgrade path...

5 lug looks good.. but try... JUST TRY to stop there...

500? Wow! Obviously it can be done but either you know the right people or you'll need some luck. Cmolina, are you looking to use as many new parts as posible? If so forget about under 1500.00. Good luck.

Hey, Have I done ANYTHING on my car that hasnt costed 1/2 less than what most everyone else would pay for??

I am a 914 owner......

muhahaha[SIZE=1]

Figure about 300 for wheels, 250-400 for front suspension, and 100-500 for rear suspension... All depends on who and what... I dont know who and what.. but these other people do!!!

Andrew

That sounds simular to mine, cept my struts where raised, and I got 16x7's...

The deals are out there.. you just have too for them (and go to swap meets....)

You can do it on the cheap with used parts but IMO if you are going to take apart the worn suspension on a 30 year old car you might as well put it together back with new parts.

Basic parts to refresh:

balljoints.......................100
turbo tie-rods................145
wheel bearings.............100
brake pads......................50
rotors............................270
brake hoses....................50
brake fluid.......................15
19mm master cylinder...150
"T" to replace bias valve...5
total..............................885

also needed:

911 front end...............500
nice 15x6/16x6 Fuchs...600
rear hubs drilled...........150
studs..............................50
140lb rear springs........150 (edit - to match spring rate of 911 torsion bars)

total............................2335


And at this point you still haven't done new shocks ($500), grippy tires ($400), a-arm bushings, or a nice sway bar like the tarret bar ($500).

now, i know my math is not as good as alfred's, but, please,
explain to me how exactly that all adds up to $500 total ???

Andy

I dont factor in wheels...

I got cookie cutters for 100 bucks, and phone dials for 30......

so I dont factor in the wheels... He talked about suspension...

OK... so let me make sure I understand this...

for about $900 I can re-do my current setup the "right" way...

or, for about $1500 and a couple more days of work I can do it the "souped up" way with used parts...

or for about $2500 i can do it the "right, souped up" way... with all new parts and have an investment that I cannot recover from the car?

I don't mean to sound naive... I know you don't recover these costs... I just have to think about the value of the car if I do the mods I'm talking about...

my biggest concern was doing one upgrade first, and then "throwing away" all the money I put into it when I did the upgrade to the 5 lug conversion.

Any thoughts?

Well, I just thought I would voice my opinion too, why would you only think about recovering your money? its a 30+ year old car that is fun to drive and maybe if we are all lucky, will increase in value. But on the other hand, if you go buy a new car, and you drive it the way most people drive these cars, I can assure you, that in 2 or 3 years that car is not going to be worth anywhere near what you paid for it. Thereby, you will never recover any of the money you put into that car.If you are looking for an investment, buy a 914-6 all original and park it in your garage and never drive it. If you want to buy a fun to drive car, spend a little money on it here and there, then get a 914 and just fix it up the way you want to drive it and forget about trying to recover money from it. All things are relative, the car will only be worth what you put into it to you. I didnt buy mine to make money as I am sure nobody else here did. We buy them for the stress relief, therapy, relaxation and then we come here to share our experience with others like us. Its just a hobby for many of us. Some of us even use these cars for daily drivers. I dont, but some do. I myself would never rely on a 30+ year old car for my daily ride. Its just not practical. However, if you consider that to buy a new car of equal characteristics you would spend about 400 to 500 bucks a month probably more for a car payment, and you want to put that same money into an old Porsche, you will have a nice car to drive around in that is unique and give you years of pleasure.

I did a 5 lug conversion on the cheap for the street car:

New front rotors - drilled to 5 lug
New rear 914-6 rotors
rear hubs drilled to 5 lug
new brake pads (rebuilt front calipers -thanks SLITS)
SS dot brake lines
new bearings front & rear
I already owned the wheels so I expect to be out about $500-700.
My car already had new shocks and springs in the back. I also took that time to add swaybars. (used less than $200)
They were powdercoated with probably another $150 or so for bushings, and new hardware and mounts & reinforcements.

Correct! Cars are not investments. I'd only do the full 5 lug treatment to a keeper. The cost certainly makes one appreciate the 4 lug setup.

I'd say a 5 lug conversion might add $500 to the overall value of the car. When you think about it though $2500 isn't bad to fully refresh and upgrade the suspension of the car plus getting nice 5 lug 911 Fuchs. I see many people driving around on $2000 worth of ugly chrome wheels everyday that have bee slapped on their minivan or suv. If you have 4 lug Fuchs you can recoup about $500 of the cost by selling them.

The cheapest way to go of course is staying 4 lug and if the suspension and brakes need some refreshing you can do it for about $700-800 total.

So the cost differential is ~ $2500 complete less what would spend to refurbish the stock brakes.
Has anyone done a real performance comparison between stock 914 and 911 brakes?
How much less fade under hard use with vented rotors?
How much stronger grip are the 5-lug, bigger rotors/calipers/master cylinder?
Is there more weight and does it make a difference?


This has little to do with the money you put into it.
cmolina,
The 911 upgrade lends itself to competition and bigger motor conversions. This is why I upgraded. I've heard a good refurbished stock brake setup is sufficient for most applications. If all you want is different wheels, then I would drill the rotors.
Felix

the suspension package for a 914 with original components, offered by b/hph(in the classifieds) is $885+shipping. i can't imagine the 911 setup being any cheaper. buying a used setup, collecting all the other new pieces, you will easily spend the $2500. don't forget the balance and alignment. if you can not do everything but the b&a i bet you can plan on another $600. that's 7.5 hours assuming the hourly rate is $80. an exspensive way to put 5 lug wheels on your car.

kevin

OK... time to clarify....

The reason for considering the 5 lug conversion was because I thought I would get better braking from the upgraded brake components. I test drove several 914's and have yet to drive one that had a good, solid feel when braking. I'm assuming this is primarily because I've been spoiled over the past few years, driving new and near-new vehicles with power brakes but it definitely is scary.


So, maybe I should have asked... what's the best way to increase brake performance?

THe reason I considered the 5 lug conversion is because I might some day want to consider new tires/rims, or wider tires than what's already on the car.

I hope that makes it more clear.... as mud

Your headed in the right direction... converting to 5 lug with larger brakes (for example 911 M or A calipers) while going with a larger M/C (19mm is prefered) while changing the brake lines, Correctly (maybe even by a professional...) bleeding the brakes, Should give you a very strong stopping feel.. Although a properly tuned stock brake setup (from what I've heard) should be fine... But I rebuilt all my calipers, and changed my lines, and bla bla bla.. but it just didnt give me the feel I wanted... So I went big...

Hope this gives you an idea...

Andrew

a properly tuned 914 brake system will work great.
If all you want is a well-braking car I would get:
new rotors
new pads
new soft lines (new rubber or SS)
19mm M/C (more braking power but requires more foot to get it)

In the process you may find that you need to repair/rebuild some of the calipers.
When all that is done bleed the system - lots.

reread the quote you said I was wrong about...

so a 19mm master cylinder mated with larger calipers should yield quicker response, more stopping power and need more foot (pressure) over a stock set up?

Bigger is Better, it's the american way!

Seriously, if upgrading your brakes can save you from slamming into something or somebody it's value is priceless...
Felix

OK..., so here is what I am "hearing"...

there are SOME upgrades that I should do... and some are probably not worthwhile...

From what I've read, it seems people are leaning toward the larger (19mm) master cylinder replacement, and using Stainless Steel Lines as the first upgrade... in addition to new pads and rotors

If I don't get "satisfactory" results with those upgrades, I should then consider replacing the calipers.

So, then... at what point should I consider upgrading the shocks/struts and springs?

shocks, struts & springs depend on their condition and what you want to do with the car.

If they have KYB's on then I'd switch right away.

Thats about it!

If you dont like the way the car rides, then go with some suspension stuff... Koni's and 140's plus a front sway bar is a pretty good combo for a street car with spirited driving.

There's definitely a different feel when driving fully non-assisted manual brakes. I did new Ferodo pads and bled my system and it stops pretty darn well. Stopping a 914 quickly though does require a whole lot more foot pressure than a car with power or vacuum assisted brakes. It's not that the car is not stopping well but that it just requires you do to all the work with your leg.

My911 is a totally different beast. With the vacuum assisted brakes I can easily lock up the brakes with very little foot pressure.

here we go again!

how can the braking force go down? if anything you could argue it stays the same. the amount of fluid is transfered faster, thus giving you a stiffer pedal. braking force doesnt change. did the caliper pistons magically take a viagra and get bigger? dont think so! did the pads get larger somehow? nope. so braking force STAYS THE SAME. YOU JUST ENCOUNTER FULL BRAKING FORCE EARLIER BY MOVING BRAKE FLUID FASTER. BIGGER BRAKES HAVE MORE STOPPING POWER!!!!!


i got a size 13 waiting for you! jk man... prove me wrong...ill buy you a beer

wrong. braking force doesnt change. the bigger cylinder for the same amount of pedal throw generates MORE pressure. youre good at kinda reciting what i just said


you've had one too many beers already

bob...i like you. youre a funny man

Spend the money on GOOD QUALITY components (no pads from AutoZone, etc) and rebuild all the calipers and bleed the brakes really well (tricky part) and you'll have an awesome setup. I've felt some rock hard stock brakes.

It's same complaints people have about the shifters (can't find gears). If it doesn't feel right, something wrong. These cars can shift and brake great when everything is done right.

--------

The reason you don't feel like putting money into a 5 bolt setup is because you don't realize the true value of these cars. All the cars you see on eBay or in your local paper need tons of work. All the $2500 cars out there are basically a collection of worn out parts, so a pile of crap costs $2500. I would expect to pay $7000-$8000 for a car with fully rebuilt brakes, suspension, and engine. That's everything you need for a great driving car, and then you add on cosmetics. All 914s cost $12 - $14 thousand. The only difference is if you pay in one large chunk or over time.

it was in my first post now bob, doesnt the above describe fluid transfer vs pedal throw?

lets keep this civil

Get a room. Otherwise know as, start a new thread.

Cmolina,

I pretty much agree with Sean. A properly maintained brake setup on a 914-4 is more than enough for most drivers. Unfortunately, too many cars suffer from neglected maintenance including failure to flush old, contaminated fluid. That old fluid corrodes the system from the inside. Adjusting the venting clearance on the rear pad is important, isn't difficult... but not something normally done on modern cars.

A 19mm master cylinder is what was used on the 914-6. Personally, I like the 19mm in a 914-4. I don't know the numbers (nor care to take part in any debate), but a brake system that feels and responds better IS better.

The only other item I'd recommend (and use myself) is a set of SpeedBleeder screws. It's the best $20 you'll spend on your brake system... and will make routine maintenance SO much easier.

Hope this helps,
Rusty

something not mentioned. what ever path you take, get a set of speed bleeders. they truly make bleeding the brakes a one person job. when i drive a car with power brakes these days, i tend to put people into the windshield.

kevin

I included the speedbleeders in my recent parts purchase. They are on the calipers, but I haven't driven the car or even bled the system yet.

...see your other thread you owe Aaron a rootbeer.

thanks sean....

i like this one