I've been talking to McMark for some time about the MS/ignition upgrade. I decided to to take the plunge a few weeks ago and asked Mark to put it on his schedule.

Jeff (JSConst) had bought a kit from Mark and decided not to use it, so I bought it from him. All of the pieces are together and Mark has time starting on Sunday.

Unfortunately, my time is limited so I may not participate much. I will add updates as I learn of them, or Mark may do that if he has the time.

Wow! I can't believe Jeff gave that up!

So am I. But he has a lot of projects and I think he wants to get the white car running quickly.

I told him that I hoped he wouldn't regret this decision in 6 months.

There were a few factors that prompted my desicion, my running motor that I just took out of the white car, needs to be rebuilt, it's starting to drop a valve and has other issues. So my plan to finish the yellow car and put that motor in it to sell won't work now. So the new 2056 will ultimately go in the yellow car, and if I end up selling it not sure if it would bring the extra $ having the MS system over a good working Djet. And I'd still be short an engine for the white car. And no offense to anyone here, but I'm not rebuilding a T4 again... So I decided the white car is getting a Suby engine, it's something I've already talked to McMark about awhile ago, now I'm doing it a little sooner, you ready Mark, I'm already looking for a donor car

Plus Jims car has been running bad lately I think he needs it more than mine right now

And besides, if I decide to keep the yellow car, I can always buy another system for it in the future...right

Can't wait to see your car on the road again Jim, mine should be going again by this weekend

Jeff

be good to see it on the road again.

Well, I got the car to McMark's yesterday with Dirk Wright at my side. While it's there, we (Mark) is installing a new oil pump, fixing an oil leak, changing springs, lubing the starter motor shaft, replacing seals and bushings and adjusting valves.

Yesterday, he got most of the miscellaneous stuff done, stripped the carbs and distributor and started installing the EFI/ignition stuff.

We'll see what happens next.

Nice, that things going to drive like a whole new car...mcmajic.

Glad to see you're gettnner done Jim.....Mark, whoever


Jeff

Here's the e-mail I got from Mark this morning.

Finished up the wiring changes this morning, installed the software for the USB adapter (it was in the mailbox), and turned the key. The MS woke up and everything looks like it's reading. We're hooking up the fuel system now and then we'll see if it starts. There may still be some involved troubleshooting, but we won't know about that until later. So we're making progress! I'll keep you posted.

My response: Way cool

As he says, I'll keep you posted

I've been running 140 lb rear springs with stock torsion bars and a stock front sway bar. Front has been lowered more than the rear. The car is really well balanced with this setup, turns in really well and doesn't plow unless I really overdo it.

I'm switching to 150 lb springs with threaded perches which will let us lower the car more. going to be interesting to find out if the heavier rear springs overbalance the front and cause problems at AX

Mark has the car running. Not well at first, fixing a couple of exhaust leaks and a software upgrade helped. It looks like the ignition switch is failing, so a new one before we go any further.

Very cool!

Did you tell him it has to be done before the 914 Breakfast on Sunday?

I was hoping to get it done this week so I could go to the AX on Saturday and the breakfast on Sunday. Mark's weekend is Friday & Saturday, so I have to wait for next time on both counts.

I'd rather take an extra day or so and get it done right. He's being very thorough and I'm sure that I'll have a much better car when it's done.

The fuel pump started puking all over the place the other day. May be one of the reasons that the car is hard to start.

Anyway, got a rebuilt and it doesn't work. I have disconnected the delivery hose from the pump to the engine (dumping into a can) to see if I'm getting any gas. None.

I've turned the engine over for a couple of minutes. Nothing.

The guy that did the rebuild says that I have to prime the pump. I've never heard of having to prime an electric pump. Any ideas?????

thanks,

I've had to prime plenty of electric pumps for work, on diesel generators. Never on a car fuel pump. Your pump (front or rear) is lower than the tank. It should self prime. If it doesn't the pump is bad. Buy a new on not a rebuild.

I run this one on my EFI. works great!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G3138/

I have a couple of very lightly used newer 2.0L Injection fuel pumps if you need one!

Thanks, Jeff. I got this one at Parts Heaven, they should have a newly rebuilt pump tomorrow.

Jim

I saw it running at The OC... Did you take it home?

I did bring it home. Mark wanted to take a few days off, so I brought itt home to do some tuning. Murphy came with me so I haven't been able to drive it much.

Update: This has not beeen and is still not a painless issue. So far, we've dealt with loose connections, two ignition switches and two fuel pumps.

I had the car and couldn't get the after start enrichment to work well so I took it back to Mark to sort out the hardware/software issues. Latest from him is that an AAR may be needed to make it work right.

Maybe he'll chime in with more details.

Must say the performance, once the car starts and warms up, is what I expected to get when I rebuilt the motor almost two years ago. Getting on the freeway is no problem anymore.

This has not turned out as well as either Mark or I had hoped. He had the car for more than a week had found problems that he could not solve.

At the end of the day, there are two continuing problems. First, it is hard to start, this can be minimized if I open the throttle a bit. Second, the engine bucks at a little less than 2,000 rpm. Mark feels that the cam that have has too much overlap for Microsquirt to handle.

I have Aircooled Technology cam #9530 cam (similar to WebCam grind #494), valve lift .465 and duration of 288/298.

The rest of the engine: 2056, lightened flywheel, 9.5:1 compression, Aircooled Technology heads.

Here is the tune that we're using and datalogs of the start and bucking. If anyone has seen this before and has found a solution, I think both Mark and I would be very interested.

Crap, uploading these file extensions is not permitted. Others have done it, how???

thanks.

Maybe open up the files and take a screen shot of each one....that is typically shift/function and prtscrn
Then open up paint and paste that into paint....save as a jpg file.
Then upload

Interesting to read.
I am getting the same setup and am also running one of Jakes 9530 cams on a 2056.

I'll be paying special attention to what you needed to do to have it all work, as I am on the other side of the country and won't be able to pop over if I have an issue.

Zach

I'll keep you posted, Zach. It's hard to believe that I'm the first one to install Microsquirt and a high overlap cam. I'm hoping that someone else can help.

Here is the tune file and two datalogging files.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53002397/MicroSqui...Mark%20Last.msq

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53002397/MicroSqui...-11-02_buck.msl

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53002397/MicroSqui...11-02_start.msl

I was running a web 86B cam in a 2ltr engine. What I found was MAF works best
using MAP the vacumn signature was not stable enought. I try TPS, this was unstable
also. I try MAF+TPS next this was better but not good enought for me. I then change
to MAF the engine ran great, smooth idle and pull like a dream through the entire
RPM range. Try it I'm sure you will like it better. Just my $.02

Hmmm... I'll have to do some research on MAF sensors. Sizing, placement, etc.

Mark,
Would TPS work at low vacuum then switch to MAP up higher? I was under the impression MS had that ability...

Jim,
I did one with a Web73 cam - though it's not as extreme as yours. Here's a link to my Megasquirt data - midway down first page.

Keep at it. You won't be disappointed.

Now it's question time.
What MAF did you use?
Did you switch to mod the plenum or relocate or use non standand aircleaner?
Pics would help.
I found this link on the a bmw forum. He went from itb's to MAF on a 2.2 motor. I really didn't study his cam, but I believe it has a duration of 304 degrees. I think that a MAF implementation of MS is the answer and will allow the use of non FI cams.

Link here bmw 2.2 with MAF

Problem is getting maf tables/curves. I am making a trip to Junkyard Barbie linkywith my dial caliper and MAF pn list. I'm going to pull Bosch MAFs from this techsheet Bosch hfm2 MAF and a maf from a mustang. the mustang MAF has a table that I was able to locate. Mustang MAF Table

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Carlos

Have you guys tried to run in tps only? Mps only?

When the car bucks, is it under load or not?

My approach would be to try to narrow down the problem. Set the ms to tps only. Still bucking? Set it to mps only. Still bucking? If yes to one but not the other, issue is probably the sensor or wiring.

Is the bucking only under load? That could be a fuel issue, possibly related to your afr/ve tables. Have you tried running auto tune in closed loop within tunerstudio? That worked awesome for me. If youre going to run closed loop on afrs, try to verify your afr sniffer's readings against a known good instrument Like you'd do on a dyno-- mark must have one or have access to one.

I'm sure mark has done this, but make sure to post questions with msq files and catalogs on the microsquirt forums. The turnaround time there isn't super fast but the company owner (grippo) will help you troubleshoot.

Don't give up. You will get there!!!

If it helps at all, here is my msq file. The previous owner installed the Megasquirt system, I'm still learning it, but my car runs great. Its a 73 2.0.

A Ford Mustang MAF is the easiest to configure on MS. They are cheap too. Just requires a few components and some solder on the board. The only other (less effective) way to do it is with Alpha N. No MAP sensor at all. The only other thing to try is manifolding all the intake runners to a single vacuum source, like Conedodger's setup.

I used a Ford MAF sensor which was mounted in a universal holder. The only problem
was the ID of the universal holder was larger than the throttle body. This was reduce to match it. I then use the voltage output of the MAF to set my tables.

I tried MAP only. I tried TPS only. I tried blended. I tried adding a reduced orifice to the MAP hose. I tried increasing the MAP sensor lag/smoothing. I tried more fuel. I tried less fuel. I tried more timing. I tried less timing. I looked at datalogs to see if it was a noise issue in the wiring.

Nothing made it go away.

I did some research last night and I will be working on an optional MAF solution for my kits, but I'll be finding a MAF that it sized more appropriately and go through the process of mapping my setup on a flow bench.

For the general benefit of everyone interested in this thread. McMark doesn't need it. He set it up!

Mark do what I did hook up the MAF to a spare channel and plot the curve and compare it too the MAP and TPS and see how smother MAF is while under load.

I believe you regarding the improvement of using a MAF sensor. I'll definitely be working on it (been reading for about 3 hours now). I have some ideas that I like and I think it will solve Jim's issue.

This is all sort-of a next phase on my fuel injection setup. The original design was simply a MicroSquirt setup that could be bolted on and looked as original as possible. The COP ignition was a deviation from that, and now the MAF setup is going even further. My crazy brain makes me need to balance the new technologies with still looking somewhat original. This would be easy with a PVC elbow and a K&N filter. But I can't do that.

Plus balancing this R&D with actually making money to pay rent....

Thanks to everyone who has volunteered info. I'm sure that Mark will find a solution and I have the test vehicle.

My experience is only with my sons sti suby. You might look at a bosch based 2.0 liter maf and see if the id is closer to the t4. You can get aftermarket maf housings to custom build air intake stuff for imports. Also we once turned his maf around backwards and it wouldn't idle for anything. We got it turned around by putting the housing in the silicon hoses backward after putting the motor back in and making a new cold air intake. Maybe a vw maf sensor.

I don't know if it is available with Microsquirt but, I'm using ITB mode with MS3, When I switched from MAP only it really cleaned things up. It's really a blended MAP/Throttle position mode that is tunable in 1 table. Apart from that suggestion, I'd look for an input from a sensor that is causing enrichment. I've had TPS triggering acceleration enrichment, coolant sensor tripping warmup enrichment and MAT sensor causing leaning out. My experience is it"s usually something simple that I miss.

Good Luck

Dave

Tried TPS only and tried blended with varying amounts of blend.

Looking at the logs, AccelEnrich is only where it should be and warmup is 100% for the whole log. So unless there is some back-door effect that doesn't show up in the log. IAT only varies 2° over the whole log.

Well, the MAF solution that we were hoping for didn't work as planned. The engine responds much better at low rpm, but still bucks (buck downgraded to lurch since it's not as severe). Acceleration from stop is really good. Mark is looking at an AAR that may help.

Thanks to Mike, kg6dxn, for helping me tune after Mark got the MAF in.

Although sensitivity to cam overlap is still high on the list of culprits, Mike and Mark both think that the lightened flywheel may be contributing to the problem.

The flywheel is not the only lightened component:
I used AA H-rods, they are only 2/3s the weight of stock - a pretty savings. The pistons are also lighter than the 94s that I took out.

The 9530 is mild enough to drive CIS. MS can drive huge overlap drag cars. I have no doubt this can be tuned.

If that's the case, and I thought it was, I have another problem that no one can even imagine.

Get on the MegasquirtII forums. Post your logs and your complete setup. Someone will probably see the problem or start a line of questions that gets you closer. If there is a shop nearby that specializes in MSII engine management - same deal. They may be able to see the issue.

As you said, you have already tuned out most of the studder.

I also agree that the lightened parts are playing a bigger role then the cam. But MSII drives all sorts of cars with lightened parts. Tune it out!

And then post about it here, as I will be doing the exact same thing this spring.

Zach

Have you try to used Tunerstudio to tune it? That will show you where the problem is. You must have a WB O2 sensor installed, this is what I found when I used a MAF.

Btw, the overlap period for the 9530 is 73.72 degrees.
This is found using the LSA (lobe seperation) methode.

Using the more common method indicates an overlap period of something like 118 degrees. Which is drag race territory and clearly incorrect.

The fromula for LSA overlap measurement is:
(((In duration+ex duration)/4)-LSA)*2
All those variables are on the cam card.

I don't know why the standard methode (intake open + ex close) gives the wrong number. Maybe pancake cams don't work for that calculation.

For what it's worth (Not much) I have adjusted for a high idle on my 1.7 D-Jet to make the light flywheel more "drivable". With a low idle, the engine dies if I let the revs drop quickly when not warmed up. I also need more "revs" to get off the line from a start (w/o killing engine) with the light flywheel. Good luck!

Finding the "balance" of building a hot-rod AX 914 and having it pleasant for daily driving is not easy!

Yes, we do use TunerStudio. I will try to get some meaningful logs this week and post the tune that we're currently using, and I'll switch back to MAP and log that, too.

thanks for the input.

Here is the tune file that I'm using and a log file from a recent test run. The log file starts out idling, accelerates in low gear and shifts to 2nd.

Then the fun begins, you can see the bucking. It's interesting that the throttle position closes, but I have't taken my foot off the gas pedal. Is the TPS causing the problem or is it the effect.

The engine is a 2056 type IV with a 9.5:1 compression ratio and Raby's heads. Has Raby's 9530 cam (Web's Cam #494), lightened flywheel and other lighter components.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p593bw6iyebgwjn/bANp3X25ic

Any help figuring this out will be appreciated by me and by those who will follow.

Check your grounds to the sensors you are getting voltage spikes in them. Remember they must go back to the Megasquirt to a common ground. Also
check your WOB heater ground it must be seperated and run to the engine.