held the curves, but he got me once the road got straight. I couldnt help but say to myself "If I had a 3.2/6, I would have shit all over him" Oh well

Damn those boxsters!

Dood!

Played with some of them at a PIR DE last year......dogmeat.
A Boxster S or 996 cab (who can tell the difference?) was a bit tougher. Had to back off & get a run at em' outta turn 12.......then eat em' up. That was my first & prolly last DE....gettin' to old fer that stuff.

Just know your car costs less then a quarter of a new boxster, and most importantly a 914 is a unique shape in today's world.

Jake will tell you, he can take your four and make it MASSIVE enough to take on that boxster. Probably cost a lot less than a conversion.

Ah, but can he take on a conversion for less than the cost of a conversion?
I'd sign up for another DE day to prove he can't.

Since I have both a Boxster S and a 914 I'll comment.....

The 914 handles a little better IMHO, maily because it's lighter and more direct (and my 914 is basically stock). The Boxster has a much nicer engine though. That TypeIV, no matter how much power it produces is just not the same as the Flat 6. Especially at 7200RPM.

I like them both. It's funny, people at work wonder why I have the 'nice car' (Boxster), and still drive the 914 to work some days. I think of the cars as equals, even though the Boxster cost 10 times what I paid for the 914. Hmmm.... seems kinda stupid when I put it that way....

after our talk at dave's, it's good to see you roading the car again chris.

kevin

Vintage & Voluptuous !

I would say.....

Good- Call keeping the Teener too....

I can hum right up to around 8,300 RPM with my 2316, she is still makin power at 7,200...

You guys are on the wrong coast to be challenging me, don't make me come spank your asses in the Bug!

I'm workin on the site tonight and found some HP numbers for the sixes- pretty sad..

2.4 "e" 165hp@6200 151@4500
I equal that with a 9.5:1 2270 and make my torque 500 revs less

2.7 "S" us-49 state 165@5800 176@4000
I spank that with a 9:1 2316 by 8 HP and 2 lb/ft of torque

3.0 911sc us-49 state 180@5500 175@4200
My 2316 "Annihilator" beats that by 1HPand achieves it 800 RPM later and I beat it on torque by 5 lb/ft as well.. at only 10:1 static CR. My newer version of that engine will totally kill this puppy as it will produce about 15HP more and touch 8,500 easily.

3.2 911 us 207@5900 192@4800
I have that one in the bag with a 9:1 2563 and make my torque 600 RPM lower and my HP 200 RPM higher..

And the absolute worst one of the day is this one..

3.6 11.3 250@6100 228@4800

The 3.OH is gonna suck this one down its 52mm throttle bodies and expel it from its 2-1/4" exhaust.....At only 10:1 I should make 260-280 ponies and 240 lb/ft of torque....

I'll be doing product testing on this one sometime in Spring 2005 and that includes a trip to somewhere in Cali just to prove I can drive it cross country......

Don't make me come do a 4th gear burnout in your driveway- In my bug...

As far as doing it on cost... I have an unlimited supply of used shit laying around that could make any of these engines a possibility for less than 1,000.00 out of pocket, and thats just for the heads.......

Thanks, Jake. I knew you could slap some of the silly shit out of these sixerphiles. As I have said, I have complete faith in you. Most fools have no idea what the Type IV is truly capable of. When I get a rebuild, it's going to you. When you come out to Cali please stop by, I want to buy you a beer.

I notice you compare your hot rod motors with stock 6s and convenietly leave things like the 2.4L S (190 hp)motor and the 2.7L RS(210 hp) motor out.....then there's the euro 3.0 (201 hp) & 3.2L (231 hp)....US 3.2 (217 hp)
I read of 6 cyl 2.5L race motors making over 300 hp.......but maybe those guys have a dyno like yours.

Wayne Bakers IMSA race motor.....2.2L, t-4.. made about 220 hp back in the 70s. I'm sure you've got that beat.

almost all the people that i talk to that have boxsters (not really that many)
don't even know what a 914 is !!!!!!

A truism. Boxster owners don't know anything. That's why they own a boxster.

Please give me a break! I own, drive and enjoy both a Boxster and 914. I have also owned 3 911s (84 cab, 95 993 and 96 C4S). (By the way, the current Boxster is the second Boxster). The Boxster and 914 are very similar, each has it good points and limits. I wouldn't dream of driving the 914 in the winter (here in MA). I drive the Boxster when ever I want. The Boxster has cold AC and a nice CD player. The Boxster's ride is firm but comfortable. The 914 has none of these things - but on a nice summer day (once its back together) the Boxster will probably remain in the garage. I enjoy the simplicity and purity of the 914. It is the antithesis of the poser car. Basically, the 914 says: this is me and I don't give a damn what you think (or think you know) about me or my ride. So, lay off the Boxster cracks. Kinda reminds me of the "Porscha" jerks in PCA who believe "if it ain't a "fill in the blank" it ain't a Porscha.

You've got the advantage of owning and appreciating both. I agree, the boxster has it's merits. But, it's also quite common for boxster owners not to know their history, and where they came from.

Sure I leave the RS spec engines out... How many guys do you see swapping RS spec engines into 914s??

It was a simple comparison...

BTW these engines I'm comparing are STREET engines with about the same CR as the comparable 911 engines..

Now if you really wanna get pissed I'll post a graph from a F production 1800 engine that makes 183HP at 14:1....

OR a 12.6:1 2316 set up for autocross that makes 231 Ponies......

The figures Jake posted are realistic for the conversions most guys are doing in their 914s, at least I think so. How many guys are putting in IMSA spec, RS, RSR spec engines in their sixes? I think we just need Jake so start messing around with sixes more and then he'll show them who's boss

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

Nah, too many cylinders and too heavy and cost too much to trick into big power. I'll keep my little ole four program going and stick to rebuilding 911 engines only to stock specs...

Hi Charles!

Come out to a GGR AutoX (how about tomorrow morning?) and you'll see lots of them.

What did you think of Rich Walton's spec racer at the JW open house? The best autox racing I think I ever seen was Bill Pickering going back to back against Rich Walton at the Marina. Pretty serious.

Actually it's a pretty competitive crowd out here, but that being said, 914’s still hold their own.

Although it will be a lot more fun when we have a few of Jake’s motors running around.

Jake, duuuuuude you get defensive when it comes to T4 engines. Chill man. Let people rant what they want. I haven't been on this list even 6 months, but can say I have never heard anyone speak anything but + praise about what you build. Maybe you don't need the buisiness, but don't screw yourself out of customers man. Keep an open mind and stay positive about people opinions when it comes to car/engine combos.

Example:

We have two 914's, mine is a 914-6 (cause I like a 6) and my wifes is a 914-4 because she thinks the 6 is too much of a beast. I don't rebuild engines, but want more power out of her 914 and she doesn't. Just leave it alone she says. So I sent the motor off to you, keep it FI and have you build me a nice 2270 or whatever. "See honey, stock." But when I drive it, I can unleash the power! "Golly sweethart, your old engine must have been sicker than we though!"

Now, me, I would think of what an ass you have been to guys who like 914-6 like me and give my business to someone who appreciates 914's in general, 4', 6's, 8's or whatever.

It's just advise man, you don't have to listen to it. Just I don't ever tell my customers thier cars, excuse me, thier engines suck. It only pisses them off which makes them a customer who will not come back.

I'd love to see one of Jake's engine's out here on the west coast. Randal, you've got get one! And thanks for the compliment on my duel with Rich. That day was so much fun!

I'm serious when I say I'd love to see a Raby pumped motor around here. I believe for auto-x one of his engines in a set up car would kick serious butt. Put that power in Andrew Blyholder's or Steve Nieslony's car and us sixers would have a tough time catching them, especially how both of their cars have been made to be so light.

On 3 mile race track however, my pumped 2.7 race motor would always beat a 4 cylinder. And there are some serious 4 guys running in the GGR Time Trial series. That's why someone should step up and get a Raby motor and race me. It should be interesting. My new 3.6 motor goes to Rich Walton at JWE to be dyno'd next week. We're matching the ratios in the gear box to the power curve.

Randal?????

God...I can't wait until the new car is done...

Bill P.

There are plenty of my engines on the west coast. Most of them are there but they don't belong to members of the boards so you don't hear much about them here..


I don't get defensive, I get down right mad and thats only because most TIV comparos were done with other people's engines and not mine.... All 4 cylinders are NOT created equal! Its all in the combo!

a couple of my AX runs were faster than the 2 914//6's there. the boxter was 2 seconds ahead of me <_<

is it me or did Chris say "If I had a 3.2/6, I would have...."

from that, I must say that is what he wants, it wasn't until Bob decided to kiss Jakes ass did this get into a 4 or 6 debate

No ass kissing involved. Facts are facts. Everyone here is familiar with the 914Lite, before it was parted out. He showed us all how a well built four could out do a boxster for HP/lb. The fact is that I happen to respect Jake, and his work. Nothing more. I just happen to think he's more dedicated to improving the performance of the Type IV than the rest of the people out there building them. I'm sure you'd take your's to MotorMeister. I'll have Jake do mine. Your choice, your opinion. I'm entitled to mine, your entitled to yours.

There is a reason you dont see competition cars running 4 cylinders outside of the stock classes...reliability/hp COMBINATION. Lets take HSR for example. NO 4 cylinder cars are competitive in that class. Why? The reason is simple. If you are gonna spend 10-20k on a motor, you want to get the most life out of it you can. I have watched several big fours (including my pro build and one of Raby's creations) develop big holes in the case during track days. Every single DE 914 here on our coast that I have seen that has any speed and runs every day is a 6. Us fools that have hopped up a four and taken it to the track and tried to spend under 10 grand on engine builds to do it have been burned. Jake how about building me one for cost and proving me wrong

All that said - Boxsters are great modern versions of our cars general configuration, with all the comforts modern typical consumers expect. A nice lightened simple version would be pretty cool for us performance junkies!

If they did a boxster S correct for the track, it would be real cool. Too bad they don't. I doubt it could be done right, unless Porsche did it. Too bad, they don't. I've only seen 911s on the televised GT circuit. I saw several 914s kick ass on the 911s at the L.A. street race, no boxsters anywhere.

There are a couple people out there tracking boxsters, but they really are not designed for it. You cant strip it the bones and rebuild with other porsche (911) parts to make it go really fast like you can with our cars!!!

See, I NEVER start this on these forums, I get dragged into it..

Anyway, Have any of those "Ventilated Type IVcases" that you have seen explode had my name on them???

Not all 4s are created equal. Many are built by some 911 wrench that doesn't understand the inner workings of this engine and how to unlok its power, just like I don't know those things about a six, or a V8.

I have had ONE engine in recent history die at a DE event in a 914, and it was due to a bad JE piston that ripped the wrist pin boss completely out and destroyed everything else. Since you saw that one engine fail 1973914 why don't you share the owners name with me and we'll see if they jive...

Kevin and I will be proving the TIV next year in E production, so I don't need to give anything away at cost to prove something..

Maybe if I wasn't 8 months backlogged with engines to build I'd need the extra press- but not right now.

At the last DE I went to I saw 3 911 engines lay down as well and one with a Carrillo rod out the top for the third time in less than 2 years....

All engines explode and break, none are immune to it!

The Type IV engine got most of its highest achievments in desert racing- 1,000 miles through the Baja is not a small feat. These engines can be made to live, and doing so will get ALOT cheaper and easier come 2005!!!!!!! Got something up my sleeve!

Marsden was the name of the guy whose motor i watched blow- and a J&E piston ripping off the rod was exactly what happened to my engine as well. Did you get any restitution from J&E?

My engine builder races a type IV in PCA club racing and supports everything from himself to brand new GT3 RS's in competition, I had every confidence in his ability to build a motor. I did not mean to come across so strong, I am just pissed off at type IV "performance" motors in general, and hate being on the side of the track while everyone else with a 6 in it passes me by.... <_<

Sorry if i dragged you in to this Jake. The guy said he needed a 3.2 six to beat out a boxster. We all know that's not true. HP/lb is what's needed. My point was that you don't need a six to get there. It's been done before I ever heard of Jake(914Lite). I only mentioned you because I know you do a TypeIV right. If I knew of someone who does it better, I'd have put his name up. Anybody here got a problem with that?

Jake, I was reading your posts very respectfully until this time. You need to settle down.

The guys are right. You presented a pretty slanted list of -6 engine outputs. I can tell you that my 3.6 (993 Euro) makes 300hp and I can also tell you that if you ever get a TIV engine to make that kind of hp, it won't be for more than a couple of minutes.

You're doing cool things with an old technology. In the end it will always be a pushrod engine.

Well, don't be mad at me, let me help you instead!

Yes, TG Marsden is the guys name and that happened a few months back. Since I have repaired the engine, got him another 20HP and its ready to be reinstalled.

I found the issue with the JE piston. Those pistons were generic JEs bought at European Motorworks and did not have reinforced pin bosses, nor did they have lighter pins. I have used dozens of sets but never had another fail. I had one set inmy 2316 and it revved crisply to 8,300 RPM all the time... That engine had a 1,000 F/PS faster piston speed and it still never happened!

I stopped using those JEs back in 2002 and since have designed our own pistons for JE to make and they feature better forgings, better -lighter pins and double snap rings. This was an isolated incident for both of us I'm sure and 'll bet your pistons have a "97M" forging number inside their crowns.

The part that failed on your engine was an aftermarket part, not a VW part. It was not the Type IV engines fault that someone ordered a generic part(even I did it but never knew it).......It was a part failure, and that also happens in Formula 1 and NASCAR with engines that cost 100 times more than a simple old 4 cylinder.

The same thing happens to 911 engines with JE pistons in some instances.


BTW, 914RS not all Type IVs have to have pushrods....

I could be like everyone else and go to some other kind of engine to make my power thats easier and doesn't involve squabbling all the time. The easy way out isn't for me and at the end of the day it feels good to know that I did more with less.

911s have pushrods too. Accelerator and parking brake.

I don't like to see people fighting over engines. I'd love to have a 6 or a Raby 4. IMHO, they're both very cool engines.

Where's Meredith with some dog pictures to calm everybody down?

I will check them for sure this weekend. Not sure you mean by saying that it was not a VW part that you use VW parts only in your engines? Not getting your point...

In the meantime, my builder has no culpability becuase i purchased the J&E's myself.... So out 6k with a $20k roller.

Back on the orginal topic.......there is a ruff boxer here in Atlanta that could be fast as sh#T if it had another driver. 300+ hp special suspension and lots of tire. I have followed and passed it but have seen what it could do on a straightaway,,,,,,very quick.

Makes a good dragster. Teener beats it on the rest of the course. Hmm What percentage of most tracks is straight? Anybody know?

Did you get those pistons from European motorworks???

My point was the design of the engine didn't make that piston come apart... It wasn't the Type IV engine's fault at all..
Chances are that a stock piston WOULD NOT HAVE!

Which of your almost-200hp engines are using stock pistons?

Ummn, must have never heard of the chap in the UK named Russ Fellows...

330BHP with a 2300TIV running a Turbo and 964 heads...

Its been together for 5 seasons I know of with no failures.

Do your homework before you raise your flag...

I know several others that have done the same and a fellow in the Netherlands now that is installing "Apfelbeck heads" onto his TIV with 100mm Posrche cylinders. These heads are overhead cam..........

I was stating that it was a problem with those particular pistons that made them WEAKER than a stocker..

I do have one 190 BHP engine that runs a basically stock manufactured piston from a Type I. Made by Mahle in 94mm flavor..

So now we take your cheap, umm I mean inexpensive, TIV engine and turn it into an exotic with 964 heads that would cost two times what I paid for my 3.6? I thought you were building powerful -4s as cost conscious alternatives to -6s.

Have you ever built an OHC TIV?

Give me a fucking break. I paid $6200 for my 3.6 that makes 300 RELIABLE hp. Let's see you do that with a TIV.

http://www.centralvwaudi.com/Russ_Fellows.htm

Highly evolved drag motor.

Jake, did you get any restitution from J& E or European Motorworks? I got them from Aircooled.net. These were 103's.... Flame on?

AGAIN BACK ON TOPIC..... no the Ruff was good in the twisties, the driver was not. Hell of a car. Porsche schould have made it.

d914, was not aware Ruf made a version. Will have to check it out. know the specs?

JE will do nothing about it, neither will European...

Yours were 103s? Never had it happen with a 103, but with the weight of the piston it is possible. One of my biggest gripe with a 103 is the weigh of that huge piston and the force it exerts on all downstream components including the crank.

Forget restitution- These are racing parts that expelled on the track. Grin and bear it- and learn from it.

BTW, my 3.0, even with all custom parts hasn't cost me 6,200 yet, but I don't pay myself labor. Russ Fellows did all his machine work and got most of his parts from the junkyard if I rememver correctly. Highly innovative machinists don't buy parts- we buy materials and junk...

as Edison said "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"

On that one I'm outta here for a while guys....... 1973914 if you need some help email me. You don't have to buy something from me to get my help- I want your four on the track as much as you do!
SEE YA!

Found it. go to:

http://www.ruf-automobile.de/english/index1.htm

Then look under "Refinement" it is the RUF 3400 S. 996 motor, with the following suspension/wheel changes:

As good as the Boxster 3400 S is in a straight line, the Boxster’s forte has always been in the twisty bits, where it stands head and shoulders above its marketplace rivals. Lowered by 20 mm in front and 10 mm at the rear on RUF’s upgraded springs and shock absorbers, the 3400 S also gains a huge amount of grip from 235/35ZR19 and 275/30ZR19 Pirelli P Zero Asimmetrico rubber on 19x8.5 and 19x10-inch RUF five-spoke alloys. To lower unsprung weight, the wheels are made from forged magnesium

OH there is also a 3600s that has 345HP. Probably huge dollars though (like any Ruf conversion/model is not).