A truely sad day for all Dutch
Today movie maker, columnist and chain-smoker Theo van Gogh was murdered

He was known and feared for his strong critizism and his blunt and harsh statements that he spewed when ever he got the chance. Often shocking his "opponenents"
Van Gogh had a very stong opinion about the way muslims-funtamentalists suppress women and how they condem gays.

In an ultimate attempt to shut him up, he was brutally excecuted in Amsterdam this morning. He was shot 6 times and then a letter was pinned to his dead body with 2 knives

The killer was captured after a shoot-out with the police. He is an immigrant from Marocco and aparently a muslim-extremist.

Van Gogh paid the ultimate price for what he believed in the most: the freedom of speech

Well that is bad news for all who speak out. We have a 22 yr old Dutch guest now and both Dutchies in the house are stunned with this news. I am afraid this type of insanity with be in the US soon as we are so divided with this right/left BS.

Heard there will be a gathering at the Dam to celebrate Free Speech and morn Theo.
Geoff

Sorry to hear about that. Sad times we're living in. Vandalizing and gunshots fired into political offices here (one party in particular). Then shit like this going on in Europe ... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../r286890687.jpg

1939 all over again.

It's Democracy - when someone doesn't get their way by influence, they pull out the weapons. They are the "true" believers. Very sad but absolutely nothing new!

This is very sad indeed. I remember a few years ago when Pim Fortuyn was assasinated just days before the election. If I recall correctly it was the first political murder in Netherlands history in hundreds of years. To have it repeated so soon is truly sad. Yet another way in which Europe is becoming Americanized.

Ernie, ya better take another good look at history before you blame "americans" for causing political assinations througout the world.

I don't blame Americans, but from what I understand America historically has one of the highest rates around of political assassination. (And no, I can't quote a source for that.)

Not pikin' on ya -

Let's see...

Hitler's Night of the Long Knives (You know the saying "When in Rohm...")
Stalin's Purges
Both Columbia and Italy have/had plenty of orginized crime-based political assasinations
Iraq now

And the offing of Franz Ferdinand that led to a minor 4 year squabble.

We Americans prefer our murder to have bases in money, culture and color (both skin and doo-rag color) and the inability to operate a motor vehicle in a competent manner.

I read about this this morning. Very sad.

Agreed. It's a tragedy, but not exclusive to democracy, national trait, or anything new. Anarchy is just another form of terrorism. J. Caeser and F. Ferdinand had similar issues. And no Ron, I didn't witness those events.

And our brothers to the South...........................Viva Pistoles!

That really bites!
Sorry to hear about that Jeroen!

Lisa

The word here from my two Dutchies is that the Islamics go to the Netherlands to live off the state money. They can say they have 11 kids and only two live with them but they still get money for all 11. Don't have to prove it. Is this why the men just sit around at the muslim shops smoking? or are they just unemployed?
Damn, I am moving with all my 15 kids!
Jeroen, now I see why you want a big family!

Geoff

It's always hard to make comparisons, but Van Gogh (yes, he was related to the painter) would come close to someone like Michael Moore (Fahrenheid 911). Van Gogh was a bit more outspoken though.
You can agree or disagree with people like this, but the fact they have the right to speak up is what really matters.

Van Gogh was a great thinker and a brilliant debater. Holland will be a worse place without him...

Fortuyn was just as frustrating as this, maybe even more.
Imagine a candidate for the presidency, heading the polls with a 75% majority (in a system with well over 10 different parties, not 2) being killed less than a week before the elections

Geoff,
It isn't so much a problem with Muslims coming here (or any other type of people). There's lots of them that are well integrated and working hard.
It's the people who come here, take advantage of the system. The system actually protects them, because when you address them on their actions, you'll be slapped on the wrist because of discrimination. It's not politically correct to say something about it.
They know that and exploit it to the max. And worse, they're trying to push their customs and believes down our throats.
Remember we are talking about imigrants. Political and economic refugees that would have died in their home countries, either because of poverty or by violence. And this is how they say thank you to us kind Dutch for take them into our country...

Both Fortuyn and Van Gogh were publicly addressing these issues, and they died because of it

Boy, I hate to make my first post back an answer to Hitlers in headscarves..

Let freedom wring. (it's hands, and their necks) Death to the Islamists, I sure hope it hurts.

Oh, he's NOTHING like Moore.... you are quite mistaken.


Miles

wasuup miles

Damn - where have I heard that before ?<_<

the bible ...

Andy

hehe

GAME OVER DOOD! WE'RE FUCKED!


(aliens..remember?)


M

I read about Theo this morning. He made a film about an Islamic immigrant to the Netherlands who had assimilated herself into Dutch society pretty well (I think even elected to political office). She criticized how women are treated under Islam. So they killed Van Gogh for making a documentary about it. I hope the woman (forgot her name) is under some kind of protection because she might be next.

Read in De Telegraaf website that the police caught the killer and questioned a room mate of his. They had bomb making material and plans of De Tweede Kamer (I think that's the lower house of parliament - but my Dutch is non existent). They were clearly going after political targets.

I'm glad that the election here hasn't started political stuff like happened just before Spain's elections.

My sincerest condolences for you and your country. An other example of the sick and demented things twisted minds do in the name of religion. I feel sad for the black eye this gives the gentle and deeply caring muslim people attempting to show the world who they really are.

Very well put.

There are examples of religious zealots and extremists in just about every religion in history. More people have died in the name of god than I can believe. In this modern world I find it very difficult to understand any religion that prefers to remain in the dark ages. Islam had very barbaric beginings, so did catholicism. Most have moved past this "kill them to save them" reasoning. Even the catholic church took it's sweet time about admiting the world was not flat. These eastern cultures who don't wish to be "westernised" are just trying to hold on to values of oppression and inequality. When they start to make changes that lift their people up to a better way of life, instead of beating them down, I will respect them. If they cannot, or refuse to, change, with the rest of the world, on the rights and freedoms of their own people, they do not deserve anyone's respect. If they can not, or will not, change, they deserve to be vanquished and doomed to the pages of history, while the rest of the world moves forward. Let them die as martyrs for their religion, but be killed in the name of liberty, and freedom. Poor ignorant bastards deserve it.

Yeah, I agree also wit the above quote.

We thought we were a tolerant country.
Guess not...

It also does put things in perspective (again). Life can be shorter than you think, so make the best out of it TODAY!

Kind regards,
Walter

Sure would help if these 'gentle and deeply caring' people would come out publicly and condemn these acts of violence and terrorism, but for some strange reson they remain very quiet.

These two guys should be send to Texas so that could be tried under Texas laws.


Geoff

And what gives you that idea?

Cite an example of public condemnation of the beheadings and other terror acts by leaders of that particular religion. Until Osama's latest tape taking credit for 9/11, they were still blaming it on Israel. I have not heard a public apology for that either.

Watch out backwards women beating islamic pigs. George Bush is coming! Once the USA and its allies defeats the islamic nutcase murdering swine the civilized world will be safe again, for our Dutch friends and the rest of the world.

By the way the USA is far from the top of the list of nations with political assasinations. We didn't start it, and considering the millions of firearms (in about half the homes) we own, our number of assasinations is suprisingly (too some) much less than in europes history.

Oh yeah, maybe it was the gun control that allowed the assasinations, be kind of hard for Hitler or Stalin to round up and kill their political enemies if they had not first inacted gun confiscation, which started as gun registration, but hell thats how it always starts.

So much for "americanization of europe" If we really wanted too, we could have Americanized the whole lot of Europe 60 years ago, but like we did before, after we cleaned up the mess, we left them, and yet there are still complaints they are too Americanized, all with negitive atributes. Perhaps the one thing we Americans (and our British Empire allies) did for Europe is that we left them free, free to choose, free to make mistakes. perhaps now Europe will wake up and see that we are fighting a bad enemy, and that Europe is in grave danger, perhaps more so than the USA, seeing as europe has so many islamists living in its midst. Hopefully europe will come around and see the real danger that it is facing, that civilization is facing. Hopefully they will not wait too long, with their desire for peace at all costs. This attitude cost millions of lives in WWII because the europeans failed to do anything about hitler until it was too late.

Hey, anyone see any of them international UN type Election monitors running around the USA yesterday? If so, did you kick them in the nuts twice (once for me)?

I have no stomach for Islamic extremist, and I am growing impatient with the Islamic regulars.


M

Hello Jeroen,
Unfortunately even in tolerant Holland there is a price to be paid both in money and lives, when you import a bunch of people from a compltely different culture and starkly different religion/ set of values, that refuse to assimulate to western values of the host country. Despite the "it wont happen here" assurances of the Dutch government and know-it-all social workers, both of who have their heads firmly stuck in the sand, it will and does happen. And it will happen again, to anyone like van Gogh and Fontuyn, that dare openly speak the truth about these people and the discrimminations they practice against for example their own women. Holland (and Europe) needs to wake up and recognize that they cannot have it both ways. What do you think about Turkey applying for European membership? I am sure you know about the Eurpean women that have been assualted and murdered in Turkey while on vacation. And Turkey is probably the least radical of the Islamic states. It is time that Holland and Europe recognized that America's (terrorist) is also theirs.
Best Regards,
Martin Jansen

The Dutch didn't waste any time arresting the suspects:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...mmaker_slain_25

i have to disagree ...

Americas foreign policy over the last decades has made us a lot of enemies that have now focused on us primarily.
this hasn't always been the case, terrorism isn't anything new and Europe always had it's share, but as i said, it has shifted towards the US in recent years.

the only thing that really amazes me about all of this is how surprised all of you guys seem. where have you been since 1980 ???
everyone i know (in Europe at least) has seen this coming for a long time, it was just simply a matter of time until the terrorists would bring the war to the US ...

and this is just the beginning, mark my words, this is going to get worse ...
Andy

I don't know how you could say that considering we just busted into a nation and severely pissed a lot of people off. Apparently we have the resources though to kill all the people we pissed off who are next generation terrorists, with a increasing deficit and an army that is already spread thin.

Oh yeah, and we won't need to raise taxes or have a draft either to get this all done.

They must have one helluva magic wand in DC!

-Chris

Martin, your absolutely right

Stoopid thing is... every body here knows it, but the government won't do shit about it, no matter how much it aggrevates the people, because it's not "politically correct"

Most frustrating about it is that the Dutch secret service has been "closely following" the killer and about 200 other muslim extremists
I guess they're waiting for them to act before they bust em
They should be deported right away!!!

Recently, a member of parliament was actually kicked out of his party because he spoke out about the fact that adding Turkye to the EU was unacceptable

The whole EU thing sucks.
France is pretty much bankrubt. The UK is close as is Germany (which has huge poverty and unemploiment issues with formal Eastern Germany)
Poland is still trying to figure out the concept of tarmac.
Italy is completely fucked-up with their dictator Berlusconi and it's economically as weak as Spain and Portugal.
So, sure, why not add Turkye, a country that for 75% is still living in the dark ages

There are too few economically strong countries in the EU. Those that are, are way too small to carry the burden of the rest of 'em and they are pulling us along in their bankrupcies...

chris: it's almost as if you're saying that we're making enemies faster than we can kill them...


that point made, i applaud van gogh's work. it's about about damn time people started speaking frankly about the serious problems of specific cultures.

I dunno how you could have possibly gotten that idea. I really like the fact that people think that this war in Iraq has made this nation safer, yeah, perhaps now there is a lesser chance that we will get attacked, perhaps. But people making the argument that the definite reason why we haven't gotten attacked since 9/11 is because of the war over there is like saying that this cup of water here is doing the same thing. We haven't gotten attacked, right? So this cup is doing a hell of a job.

Anyway, its the not so distant future we have to worry about. When the kids in Iraq whos parents were killed by the invading Americans emerge from the Iraqi underground. When we begin to let our guard down because the war over there has "taught terrorist not to mess with us." When we have severed so many international ties that even if other countries know about the impending attacks, they won't tell us out of spite. When we have gone into such serious debt that our own intellegence agencies are more of a joke than they currently are and can't give us the warning we need.

Okay, so maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist, but I think it is much more dangerous to be an optimist that thinks this war in Iraq is going to solve this terrorism problem.

end rant

-Chris

Chris; Bottom line in Iraq is we have no more made future terrorists out of all the kids of parents killed by our bombs, than we made japanese or german terrorists post WWII, and we killed a hell of alot more of them than Iraqi's civilian wise. The reason they did not hate us, and why the iraqi's won't (and 75% admit they are really glad saddam is gone) is that we took out a really bad government, that was killing more than we had. We bring the promise of a free future, but we must continue fighting the remaining saddam loyalists, and terrorists, local and imported. Once done, iraq will be free to choose.
remember WWII took many years to fight, and years after to pacify. Europeans must have a self esteem problem if they think the Iraqi's can change in 2-3 years after 30 years of saddam, if germany took over a decade fo pacify after the war started, and hitler had not been ruling very long either. Give Iraq some time.
How are we safer? saddam supporteed terrorism, that is a fact, money to hamas sucide bomber families, sheltering terrorists, are all documented. saddam brutalized the region, an important region for oil, which the world needs. saddam had a weapons program, a documented history of chemical weapons use on his own CIVILIANS. That explosives stash that in the last week of the election made news as disapearing had one main use to saddam, as a detonater to an atomic bomb. That is why he had the stuff, you get it???? he had plans to make a nuke, and some of the parts, the UN knew he had this stuff, and damn well knew why he had it. That is why UN weapons inspectors are a farce, the UN does not act on it by wanting to take out the problem, the problem was saddam, and they let him keep the stuff, F@*& the UN, worthless, Get it??? After saddam was captured, terrorist kadahfi gave up his weapons program. This is big news, he gave it up without a fight, all cause what he saw us do to saddam. Two nations out of the nuke bussiness for that price of one, get it????
The terrorists are so busy killing iraqi civilians, that they are pissing iraqi's off, and iraqi's are joining the iraqi police/army in droves, dispite killings of recruits. Imagine that, iraqi's joining together to kill islamic terrorists, on their own soil. Do you get the plan, do you understand the strategy??? read again........ Iraqi's are joining up to fight terrorists!!!!
This is offense. We were sucker punched attacked on 9-11, we are now on the offensive. This is the only logical stand to take, the offensive. if we remain only defensive, we will allow the terror to come to our shores again.

Whats next? i do not know, but I wager our barginning position with N. Korea, and Iran is much more now that they have seen us take out Iraq, and that the civilians are turnig aginst the terrorists. Libyia is coming clean, the Pakistani Nuke scientist that was running a make your own nuke for sale is now out of bussiness also, libyia , and iraq were customers of this.

Hell yes we are safer now, hell yes!

If only a a few more vocal european nations, and China had helped out, we had plenty of good help from many nations, but the few that opposed held things up, allowed explosive to dissapear before combat (in an attempt to hide the source of these illegal per UN
embargo items).

If the other vocally opposed nations would get it, we would all act in concert against Iran, and N. Korea, as any sane person can see we can not let either nation obtain nukes, or more nukes, and that fuck chi bad hair doo dictator in N. korea makes saddam look like a good guy with the way he, and his father before him have inslaved the N. korean civilians.

Time good nations clean up the really bad guys, a few nations that claim to be civilized have not wised to help, either they do not give a damn, are blind, have current economic interests in seeing the bad guys survive, or see America as an enemy, and wish to support what ever causes us problems, these types, like the chinese just plain hate freedom, hell the chinese are commies.

Anyrate, we are not going to make more terrorists by being on the offensive, we obliterate them when we are on the offensive. If we achive the root of freedom in iraq, chances are it will spread too near by terror states (iran, and saudi specifically) We also have a foot hold there now, just in case an ayhtolla assahola in nextdoor iran gets funning ideas with nukes or something.

You cannot win on the defensive, you just cannot. Take the war too them, and iraq was one of them, no doubt.

reads nice when you look at it that way, except you're underestimating those guys, which is dangerous at best.
it won't be anywhere as smooth as you would like it to be ...

let's revisit this thread 4 years from now and see who was right.
Andy

Sir Andy: Ok, lets see who is right or wrong but to be fair, since I could be right or wrong, what is your plan for the fight on terror? How would you have acted since 9-11, how would you act now given your plan? What assumptions do you make? I'd like to know where you are coming from on this.

i do not understand the meaning of the nuke quote, but I will say this, the Nuke problem is the biggest we will face in the future, and to make the best chance of a good future, we need to stop these wacko nations from getting them. we have seen that they can, and will seceretly develope them right under our, and the UN's noses. Imagine a future with terrorist bombs, which is what will happen when Iran, and N. Korea , and others get bombs being made.

So "Nuke" is the really big future question. trust Iran, N.Korea.

dave

I have to agree with Chris as I think we have made more Islamic enemies than friends. This attack on Iraq reeks with the US snatching Iraq for its oil. The fact that we have repeatedly f'd up things, stirred up a civil war between the two Islamic groups isn't in our favor. The rest of the Arab world isn't stepping up the the plate and helping out like in the 1st Gulf war. Hmm, in fact tons of money is pouring in to fight the "Infidels'.

Europe has been fighting terrorism for years and the US is finally on the "list". I expect more attacks as we can't wipe out these guys. Bush is going to get really tired of these "flies".

What happened to the 3 guys who killed the lady in the Morrocan store last year???

Geoff

"Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons in the past is repeatedly cited by the US and British governments as justification for his removal from power now. But just what was their response to his use of poison gas against Iranian troops and Iraqi Kurds in the 1980s? Far from condemning his actions, they stepped up their support for Baghdad. One of the most damning revelations to come out of the Scott inquiry into the arms-to-Iraq affair was the British government's secret decision to supply Saddam with even more weapons-related equipment after he shelled the Kurdish town of Halabja in March 1988 with gas bombs, killing an estimated 5,000 civilians and maiming thousands more. Saddam said he had punished the Kurds for "collaboration" after the town had been successfully attacked by Iran. The weapons were produced with German-supplied chemicals.

This cynicism and hypocrisy was matched only by the US. Soon after the attack, Washington approved the export to Iraq of virus cultures and a $1bn contract to design and build a petrochemical plant the Iraqis planned to use to produce mustard gas. And while the Reagan administration condemned the use of chemical weapons during the eight-year Iraq-Iran war, US officers were secretly supplying Iraqi generals with bomb-damage assessments and detailed information on Iranian troop deployments.
"The use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern," Walter Lang, a former senior US defense intelligence officer, told the New York Times this week. Washington was worried about the threat of Iran spreading its Islamic revolution to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
Richard Norton-Taylor
Wednesday August 21, 2002
The Guardian

So we are going to eliminate all the people that suppport and fund terrorists...then when do the bombs start falling here, or London, or Berlin?
If you truly believe that we should stamp out terrorism, then do your patriotic duty and keep a close eye on what your elected officials are doing. Vote, email them, and let them know what you think about the direction our nation is heading in and don't let them tell you that they are doing something that is in our "best interest" without knowing all the facts.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Georgey boy only went into Iraq to clean up the mess his gutless daddy, who ignored his generals, didn't fix the first time we went over there. Why the hell did we have to beat them twice? We should have sent a message the first time, and wiped Saddam's ass off the planet. Then maybe we wouldn't look like such pantywaists to other countries and terrorists. We tried to be pacifists before. What did it get us? A terrorist attack called Pearl Harbor. We can't ever bury our heads in the sand. We have to prioritize the list and take them down, one by one. You saw what Libya did. They surrendered before the fight began. We had Kudafi shaking in his boots. We have to keep kicking ass and taking names until terrorists have no more rocks to hide under. Then all they can do is run. You know what the sniper says "If you run you'll only die tired." I'm glad Georgey boy won. Better some fool who kicks ass than some liberal anti-war pantywaist.

With Libya, 20 years of International sanctions had ground his country's economy to dust including his oil revenues soo he became a good boy to end that. Now money is pouring back into his county and his oil industry is being repaired/updated.

Read the 1999 book "Blowback-The Costs of Consequences of American Empire"
"Blowback is simply another way of saying that a nation reaps what is sows. Our national experience is seldom imagined in such terms because so much of what the managers of the American empire have sown has been kept secret."

Going around kicking ass works for a little while until you piss off everyone around you and they gang up on you and really kick your ass.

At the moment the Sudan is laughing at any attemps by the US for peace. What are we gonna do, send troops! There aren't any left to send..so pretty idle threats.

If you don't think this Iraq war is all about the control of oil, what is it about then? Some stupid revenge of GW Bush, gimme a break.

Geoff

Gee, their timing was just a coincidence. Twenty years, and they pick now? I'm sure they've been smuggling things in and out of the country for the last twenty years. Just because sanctions are imposed doesn't mean they can't get around them. Not revenge, just fixing something that needed fixing. Just a coincidence that his dad didn't have the balls to get the job done the first time. If it was about oil, why are gas prices going up? Do you think they'll ever go down? I doubt it. As far as Sudan goes, they'll fall in line as soon as they get to the top of the list. Libya knew they were next. Sure it would be nice to live in a world where everything was sunshine and lollipops. If that's what your looking for you better find a planet where nobody shits, otherwise there's always going to be assholes out there. And just who is it that's going to gang up on us and kick our ass? The French? The Germans? The Canadians? OOH, I'm so scared.

So we're successful in establishing a democratic government in Iraq. They elect a president and a congress, parlaiment etc. Then they decide they don't want us in their country and also decide to triple the price of the oil they sell us. If they did that the US marines would be the first in as usuall. This is all about securing the oil fields. In the first gulf war, we didn't liberate the Kuwaiti people. We liberated the Kuwaiti oil. There is no liberty in Kuwait and no Democracy iether. We were given two reasons for invading Iraq. First was weapons of mass destruction which weren't found. The next reason was Saddaam was a really bad guy. Now he's in custody. Why are we still there? The OIL. Oil, until something else is found is the life blood of the world. Without it people start to starve. Then you will see a real war.
Does anyone have a question about the car???
Cheers, Elliot

I honestly don't understand why so many of you believe the BS propaganda.

Sorry I posted my rant before guys, I've gotten in too many political discussions over the last few weeks on forums and it always boils down to no one is convinced of anything other than what they currently believe. So there really wasn't a point. Personally I believe that we don't have the military size or the monetary resources to do the terrorist nation hopping that is suggested without sending this country back to civil unrest rivaling 1968. And I also believe that these religious extremists , if we keep pushing on them harder, they will just go deeper into the underground, only to emerge when we least expect it. There is very little anyone can do to convince me otherwise unless you have a Delorean with a few modifications by Dr. Emmit Brown. So I'll quit posting.

Chalk this up to cynism I guess, but I think it is damn idealist and optimistic to think that there isn't an alterior motive for going into Iraq when there are more dangerous threats in the world (Like N. Korea that HAS obtained nuclear warheads on Bush's watch). And I find it kind of pathetic when people refer to democrats as weak or what was that? pantywaisted? Come on, it really just takes away from any point that you are trying to make. Dammit, I'm still posting. Ughh, sorry. I'm done, seriously.

-Chris

Iraq will be a puppet country like Japan and West Germany was. We will control the oil industry there thus upsetting the OPEC oil control and taking the Saudi's to task. We needed a way to get them to stop their crazy exporting of money and extremist Islam.

This never had anything to do with a Democracy, freeing Iraq from a bad guy, blah blah. If you believe this you have brainwashed by all the sound bites and mass tv lies. Last time I heard we are building 14 army bases in Iraq. Now that doesn't sound like we are leaving very quickly does it?

Bush is just a act, he didn't own a ranch before nor even run one. His act appeals to over half of America (see the election results).
I had never thought Bush was stupid, I just see what he is up to.
How long do you think Cheney will stay VP? The GOP needs to groom a new Pres canidate soon.
Amazing the rest of the world can see thru all the US BS and see what is going on. Of course their News services aren't so regulated.....

Geoff