Harness bar VS Firewall, for harness installation..
Well I am now doing some contemplating, I am going to put some camlock black harnesses, one for the driver, and one for the passanger, in my car. Mainly because I just dont feel safe with the stock one's, and because I like the one's in my dads 951. My question, I have seen 914's at auto x's with harness's mounted to the car via harness bar, and via firewall. Is the firewall way safe? Is it a generally accepted idea? Also if I do go firewall, would I have to get rid of the backpad and put carpet in there? Or could I cut 2 holes per side in the backpad? Also Is using harnesses (I will be getting simpson camlocks hopefully) Illegal for the street?

Thanks alot guys!

I have seen both, and for AX, I will probably just get the harness bar. Its easy. I think Firewall mounting is safe also, but do not use generic hardware store bolts, because they dont have the same strength to weight ratio, or something like that.

If you go the firewall route, mount them high up, underneath the rib, just below the window and the hinges. Drill your through-holes

Use the harness mounting plate (rectangular plate with a nut welded to it), and weld that all around the edges on the engine side of the firewall.

For more strength, drill your holes, weld a larger rectangular plate on the wall first (to distribute the force), and then weld your mounting plates to that.

If you go the firewall route, you probably want to leave your firewall bare, or carpet it. That's what I am doing.

Here's a nice picture. (not my car).

My Boxster has a carpeted rear firewall, so it should turn out somewhat similar in appearance.

Thanks both of you. Has anyone ever been in a accident with firewall mounted harnesses? Did the firewall hold up? Thanks!

This setup is used in racing quite a bit and to my knowledge is quite acceptable to most of the sactioned racing bodies. It will hold.

Also, get the substrap (5-point harness). The substrap helps keep the two side straps (lap belts) in place around your pelivis so that as you go flying forward that they don't cinch up around your soft inner organs beneath your ribcage.

I'm installing a Scroth Profi III 5-point camlock setup on both sides of my car.

Regards,

Karl

Yup, I am going to get 5 point harness's, and in black (dont want to give a cop any reason to pull me over, if its black, it looks closer to stock than red or blue one's)and camlock, at least the drivers side.

Most/all race sanctioning bodies require either a firewall/bulkhead mount or a rollcage mount; harness bars are typically frowned upon, presumably due to strength concerns.

The other issue with the harness bar setups is that -- depending who you believe -- the height/angle is too high. I always forget the exact specs, but you basically don't want to deviate to far from a 90deg angle in the belts.

Also...a 5pt harness w/o a proper (slotted) race seat and roll bar/cage borders on something between unsafe, and a waste of time/money. Best to go the whole way, if you're gonna head down that road at all.

Yes. mine are actually black and yellow...

Substrap not shown... (although the seat does have a substrap hole).

Regards,

Karl

They feel really fast (especially in the kitchen).

I went through the firewall with all the necessary hardware supplied by Frey Racing.

They set me up with double bolts and thick large washers. Drilling the holes were very easy.

While I like the carpet and wonder why I didn't think of it, I actually reinstalled the backpad with holes for straps to the eyebolts. I also have a welded in roll bar. I just cut holes in the backpad carefully (and removed some stuffing). I feed the straps through, loop the belt, and then get the pad in place.

Even with a hybrid seat, the seat goes all the way back into the pad.

Let me know if you want some picts.

Good luck.

Chris, Im glad you brought that up, I am going to fiberglass a pair of stock seats.. should I put in holes for the shoulder straps? what about on the side, by your bunz.. Im going to find a seat that I like, and copy some of the dementions and make my "perfect" seat.. should be interesting!! Any ideas or hints? When Im done I'll have a local fabric shop put some padding in, and put vinal on it. This way I can retain my stock seat rails! Got the idea after I found out the stock seats are fiberglass, and looking at renegades seats did help...

cavwpguy, Did you buy harnesses that where roll bar mount and then use the stuff Fray Racing gave you to mount it to your firewall? Also why didnt you use the roll bar to mount the harnesses to? Was it because the roll bar wasnt in the correct position (way to high over head) or some other reason. Pictures would be great! The more Ideas I get, the better!!!! hehe, I love being young ideas come quick!

I bought the harness with the intention of using the eyebolts and drilling through the firewall.

The bar was welded in before I had the harness.

The other trick was getting the backpad into the car after the bar went in. I was told it couldn't be done (it can-sort of).

I'll pull some picts tomorrow.

My backpad isnt perfect, the drivers side has a rip (I notice this is very common, as I see it in almost every daily driven 914 I have seen) but the rest is very good. I have 2 more backpads, that If I do a little sewing and glueing, I can make it look good. But it might save me some money just to carpet it. It would also be easyer to keep clean, and looking nice.

Here's a view from across the seat.

Here's from the drivers side

Heres from behind

Also, if you have three backpads, you can take them apart in 3 sections and put together your best parts.

Good luck!

Rob is that Renegade Seat the Touring ver?

Yep. I like it.

Rob, Thanks alot! that will help me alot when it comes to the point of installing them.

Hello! First post, long time "lurker".

Ideally, you never want to attach the harness itself to the guide bar, although i dont think you meant that exactly. On my track car, heavy-duty hardware attached the 5-point harness (4 point is dangerous given that you can slide under the lap belt), with the shoulder straps run over the harness guide bar, into Corbeau seats. Really feel that the Renegade seats are pretty dangerous, as they lack the holes to run the shoulder harness through. Without this safety feature, you run the risk of them coming completely of your shoulders. Know one person who had this happen on the track, with serious consequences (in traction and permanently dmaged). VERY scary setup.

Thanks for the wealth of information people! This is a great board.

Thanks! I havent thought of them coming off my shoulders, Ill put that into my planing when I make my seats. Really appreciate that, Hmm, you might have saved my life!!

You lost me. There's no way the shoulder straps fall off, I just went out and tried. The shoulder straps are 90 degrees to the firewall, taut, and wedged between the seat and the back pad. With 5 pts, I'm in there. Your buddy must have had some other combination of variables which brings up a very good point: proper installation of any safety device should be reviewed, checked, and approved by a knowledgable source.

Too bad for the wrecked guy though.

Safety First always!

The renegade seat uses the same exact headrest as the original. While there is substantial lateral support added and therefore (perhaps) more of a channeling effect for the shoulder harness, there is no direct lateral restraint forcing the shoulder straps to stay in place. I am in no way claiming that I have gone out and run tests on the physics here, just that nobody that I know would get in a car on the track with stock 914 seats and 5 point harnesses. Its quite simply too dangerous. I dont see the obvious difference between the renegade seat and the stock seat when it comes to that safety factor. I guess my first question (and i looked for the answer online from a supplier to no avail) is if the seat is FIA Homologated/Approved? If not, I wouldnt put it in my car. Then look at all the FIA Approved seats and you see a constant; guide holes for the shoulder harnesses. Now if you are not tracking the car, i guess it may be sufficient for street use, but sitting in the seat and wiggling around certainly will not replicate the g-forces involved in an on-track or even street collision. Of course the 914-6 GT's had no headrest at all you say? Safety wasnt always the number one priority back then - case in point: Aluminum Roll Cages!

Not trying to argue just pointing out some lessons that someone else illustrated and that I hope nobody else has to learn first hand!


OH and to answer your other question about the legality of the harnesses.... Check your state laws but the standard reply would be that you are able to replace the stock restraint system as long as you use the original mounting points as supplied by the factory. This of course eliminates harnesses from the equation. Solution: retain the original seat belts in the car. Thats what i did with mine during the ongoing conversion from street to track. Had the harness installed along with the stock belts and passed with flying colors.

Not to beat a point to death, but the Renegade (and stock) seats also do not have lap-belt pass-thru slots. So the lap belt is "lifted" off of your body by the side bolsters, and cannot be cinched down as well as in a true race seat.