Full Version: ethanol free gas
I have a 1975 914 2.0, should I be using ethanol free gas? It appears to have the orginal metal gas tank.
I didn't know you could get ethanol free fuel except for race gas.
While it has less bang for the buck, the main concern are the rubber hoses / seals in the fuel system. Use ethanol rated fuel line and it shouldn't be a problem.
If "ethanol free" is cheaper ... use it.
While it has less bang for the buck, the main concern are the rubber hoses / seals in the fuel system. Use ethanol rated fuel line and it shouldn't be a problem.
If "ethanol free" is cheaper ... use it.
If you can find it buy it! Welcome to the club!
In SC we actually have a number of stations that sell it. It's popular for boaters with older engines, fuel systems, and/or fiberglass fuel tanks. Cost is not that much higher 
i high recommend ethanol free gas! check here for availibility in your area.
http://pure-gas.org/
http://pure-gas.org/
we should all be using ethanol-free gas ;-) ...
maybe someday, but as there is a move to introduce E15, the politicos who want to pretend to be chemists and engine designers (since they are clearly _not_ economists...) seem to be moving in the wrong direction.
In PA there is ethanol-free gas available at marinas and that's pretty much it unless you're buying race gas in 55-gallon drums.
In semi-related news, the sole US company that makes tetraethyl lead has announced that it's pulling completely out of the ground-vehicles market although they will continue to make it for AvGas.
maybe someday, but as there is a move to introduce E15, the politicos who want to pretend to be chemists and engine designers (since they are clearly _not_ economists...) seem to be moving in the wrong direction.
In PA there is ethanol-free gas available at marinas and that's pretty much it unless you're buying race gas in 55-gallon drums.
In semi-related news, the sole US company that makes tetraethyl lead has announced that it's pulling completely out of the ground-vehicles market although they will continue to make it for AvGas.
Wow ... 5 stations in California, Northern California at that and at $5.28 gallon ... only 1800 mile round trip for me to find ethanol free fuel. What a deal!
QUOTE(wd40togo @ Feb 2 2013, 10:10 AM) 
I have a 1975 914 2.0, should I be using ethanol free gas? It appears to have the orginal metal gas tank.
YES, Old Cars don't like Ethanol
QUOTE(SLITS @ Feb 2 2013, 10:13 AM)
I didn't know you could get ethanol free fuel except for race gas.
While it has less bang for the buck, the main concern are the rubber hoses / seals in the fuel system. Use ethanol rated fuel line and it shouldn't be a problem.
If "ethanol free" is cheaper ... use it.
I can get E-Free in three different Octanes (87, 89, & 93), I filled the 911 up with 93 E-Free this morning.
E-Free is more expensive (about 10%), but you will get 10-15% better Mileage.
also put E-Free in all your Yard Equipment (Mowers, Edgers, etc) or replace your equipment all the time. My Lawn-Mower Engine is 12 Years Old ( I use it every week of the year), the base rusted out, so I found someone's mower that they were tossing in the garbage cuz the engine went, put my engine on it & presto - chango, New Mower
QUOTE(SLITS @ Feb 2 2013, 08:33 AM)
Wow ... 5 stations in California, Northern California at that and at $5.28 gallon ... only 1800 mile round trip for me to find ethanol free fuel. What a deal!
5 stations in my town at 3.58/gal
Yes, if you can find it. Your fuel hoses will thank you! It is the only gas I will put in my teener.
For those of you in Canada or if visiting, use Shell gas, I understand it is ethanol free.
Ian Stott
Moncton
Canada
Ian Stott
Moncton
Canada
I prefer ethanol free for any car, not just my 914s. Unfortanitly there is only one station I have found in Utah that has it (and only in 92) and that station is 20 miles away. I stll get it when i can despite the fact that they charge 25% more at times.
Better for the cars and we need to support the stations that are putting up a resistance to this crap.
Better for the cars and we need to support the stations that are putting up a resistance to this crap.
We have ethanol free premium available here in Idaho. I use it in my dirt bikes, 4wheelers, generators...anything that sometimes has its fuel sitting for a while.
Mechanics I trust tell me it is much less liable to turn to jelly and foul carbs and injectors. That's what I'll be feeding Baby when I get her on the road.
QUOTE(t collins @ Feb 2 2013, 07:39 AM)
QUOTE(SLITS @ Feb 2 2013, 08:33 AM)
Wow ... 5 stations in California, Northern California at that and at $5.28 gallon ... only 1800 mile round trip for me to find ethanol free fuel. What a deal!
5 stations in my town at 3.58/gal
Yes, once you leave "the peoples republic of california" - where big oil is given free reign on overpricing with a governmental enviro-price profit bonus - you can actually fine E-free at a reasonable price at multiple stations!
At lil' ole Sallisaw OK along I-40 in NE OK - where I go often - there are at least 3 stations selling E-free for about the same price as comparable grade corn-gas. Don't know of any in SoCal, but haven't looked yet.
IMHO the MTBE crap gas additive before Ethanol was worse, as it literally ate thru the grommets & seals on the top of our Vanagon Westy gas tank, so I had to pay $2-300 every 2-3 years to reseal the tank & royal PITA!
As TC said - so long as the price differential is about the same as the 10-15% better fuel mileage, then it's a wash. However, you also have to figure the ongoing cost for added maintenance & damage to your motor & fuel system not designed for E-gas, so you have to add that on too.
BTW - the 10-15% less mpg with E-gas is part of why folks are getting less thant the 29-35 mpg they used to get on their 914/4s!
FYI - Ethanol used to be called "White Lightin' " & running it gave birth to NASCAR!
QUOTE(914Eric @ Feb 2 2013, 11:31 AM)
Mechanics I trust tell me it is much less liable to turn to jelly and foul carbs and injectors.
The Real issues with Ethanol are that it absorbs water which will screw up Carbs ( New FI Systems handle it OK because of the High Pressure) and that it is highly corosive (which is where it eats Fuel Lines). In Lawn equipment which sits most of the time the Water absorbtion is much worse.
Even in your regular cars where you use E-10, the best thing to do is always have your car at a 1/4 to 1/2 Tank, because the Gas can go bad quickly
No "E free" fuel here in Missouri...not that we want E free gas.
Oh my seals might shrink...OMG!
Bring on the horsepower baby! set up for E85!!!!
My Vette just loves the E15 (mandated in the big cities by Al Gore)
My fuel milage in the Avalanche sucks with E85 so I don't use it.
In my performance cars I don't care about MPG and the seals in all of my stuff that uses gas are just fine.
Oh my seals might shrink...OMG!
Bring on the horsepower baby! set up for E85!!!!
My Vette just loves the E15 (mandated in the big cities by Al Gore)
My fuel milage in the Avalanche sucks with E85 so I don't use it.
In my performance cars I don't care about MPG and the seals in all of my stuff that uses gas are just fine.
I wish every station had E85... Then I could turn the boost way up and make serious HP... 
Did some research on this.
You can test your own gas, below is the DIY method or you can buy test kits.
This one you have to buy the kit and then solution, a bit spendy IMHO, but it is fast and uses the least amount of gasoline. One kit tests 450 times so it's still a good deal.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/index.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Deluxe-Alcohol-F...=mtr&_uhb=1
These ones you just use water, no solutions to buy. You know pretty quick if you have ethenol, but have to wait 5 minutes to know percentage. (see video bottom of this post)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/QUICK-FUEL-E-85-FU...=mtr&_uhb=1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/QUICK-FUEL-RACE-MA...=mtr&_uhb=1
Or you can do it yourself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSQSuCiUjE
You can test your own gas, below is the DIY method or you can buy test kits.
This one you have to buy the kit and then solution, a bit spendy IMHO, but it is fast and uses the least amount of gasoline. One kit tests 450 times so it's still a good deal.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/index.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Deluxe-Alcohol-F...=mtr&_uhb=1
These ones you just use water, no solutions to buy. You know pretty quick if you have ethenol, but have to wait 5 minutes to know percentage. (see video bottom of this post)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/QUICK-FUEL-E-85-FU...=mtr&_uhb=1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/QUICK-FUEL-RACE-MA...=mtr&_uhb=1
Or you can do it yourself
QUOTE
Field Test for Determining Presence and Amount of Alcohol
Field Information Number 306
In Gasoline
EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION, INC. (EAA) appreciates the permission of Conoco, Inc. to base this field test procedure on one developed by the company.
Scope
This method determines the amount, if any, of alcohol present in gasoline. This test is designed specifically for field-testing where time and simplicity are important factors.
Summary of Method
A sample of gasoline is shaken at room temperature with an amount of added water. The volume increase of water is proportional to the amount of alcohol initially in the fuel sample. Nine (9) parts of the gasoline sample are combined with one (1) part water.
Appartus Required for Either of the Methods Below
Graduated Cylinder Method - One (1) each one thousand milliliter (1000 ml) clear Pyrex or shatter-resistant glass graduated cylinder OR transparent chemical-resistant plastic (such as TPX) graduated cylinder. (These can be purchased from laboratory or chemical equipment suppliers.)
Measuring Cup Method - One (1) each 2-quart clear pyrex, glass, or chemical resistant plastic container. One (1) each 4-fluid-ounce measuring up (1/2 cup). One (1) each 32-fluid-ounce measuring cup (1 quart).
Preperation
Clean Containers.
On the 2-quart container, mark the level of exactly four (4) fluid ounces (1/2 cup) permanently on the side (a piece of masking tape can be used).
Procedure
Graduated Cylinder Method - To 9 parts of gasoline (900 ml), add 100 ml of water for a total of 1000 ml in the graduated cylinder. Shake thoroughly, let stand for 10 minutes or until gasoline is again bright and clear. Record the apparent level of the line between the gasoline and water. This “Final Volume” is used in the calculation below.
Measuring Cup Method - To nine (9) parts of the gasoline sample (36 ounces or 1 quart plus ½ cup), add 4 fluid ounces (1/2 cup) of water for a total of 40 fluid ounces in the 2-quart container. Shake thoroughly, let stand for 10 minutes or until gasoline is again bright and clear. Record the apparent level of the line between the gasoline and water.
The Measuring Cup Method is intended to indicate the presence of alcohol and is not practical to evaluate the amount of alcohol. If the final line between gasoline and water is measurably higher than the ½ cup mark, the presence of alcohol is indicated.
NOTE: Erroneous results are probable if sample and water are not thoroughly shaken and mixed.
Calculation
Graduated Cylinder Method - Note the final volume and calculate the percentage of alcohol in the sample using the following calculation: Percentage of Alcohol in Gasoline = (Volume – 100 divided by 900) X 100.
Where: V = “Final Volume” of water as determined in procedure above (read at separation line between water and gasoline).
Precision
Within +/- 1% alcohol if you measured and recorded accurately.
Action to be Taken
In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative operations, the following observations are offered:
If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect on aircraft.
If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system for more than 24 hours, then drain and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.
If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain the fuel system, flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine long enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.
Known Problems
Alcohol attacks some seal materials and varnishes on cork floats of fuel level indicators. This could cause leakage of seals and release particles of varnish from floats, causing blocked screens in fuel lines or blocked carburetor jets. Excessive entrained water carried by alcohol could lead to fuel line blockage or blockage at screens or values when operating at low ambient temperatures at ground level or at high altitude. Fuel volatility is also increased with the addition of alcohol in a manner that is not detected by the Reid Vapor Pressure test, which is used to determine if a fuel meets the automotive specification. For example, a gasoline with alcohol will meet the Reid Vapor Pressure limit of 13.5 psi but it will behave as though it has a volatility of roughly 20 psi. Gasolines with alcohol will also phase separate. Phase separation occurs as the gasoline/alcohol blend cools, such as when a plane climbs to a higher altitude. When water that is absorbed in the fuel by alcohol comes out of solution, it takes most of the alcohol with it. The quantity that comes out of solution cannot be handled by the sediment bowl and tank sumps. Furthermore, if the alcohol is used to raise the octane of the base gasoline, the gasoline that remains will not have sufficient octane to prevent detonation. A good reference for this phase separation problem is: Paul Corp., Laboratory Investigations into the Effects of Adding Alcohol to Turbine Fuel, DOT/FAA/CT-TN88/25 July 1988, FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City International Airport, NJ 08405.
Precautionary
Gasoline is volatile, extremely flammable and harmful, or fatal if swallowed. Avoid prolonged or repeated breathing of vapor or contact with skin or eyes. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting, get medical care immediately.
Field Information Number 306
In Gasoline
EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION, INC. (EAA) appreciates the permission of Conoco, Inc. to base this field test procedure on one developed by the company.
Scope
This method determines the amount, if any, of alcohol present in gasoline. This test is designed specifically for field-testing where time and simplicity are important factors.
Summary of Method
A sample of gasoline is shaken at room temperature with an amount of added water. The volume increase of water is proportional to the amount of alcohol initially in the fuel sample. Nine (9) parts of the gasoline sample are combined with one (1) part water.
Appartus Required for Either of the Methods Below
Graduated Cylinder Method - One (1) each one thousand milliliter (1000 ml) clear Pyrex or shatter-resistant glass graduated cylinder OR transparent chemical-resistant plastic (such as TPX) graduated cylinder. (These can be purchased from laboratory or chemical equipment suppliers.)
Measuring Cup Method - One (1) each 2-quart clear pyrex, glass, or chemical resistant plastic container. One (1) each 4-fluid-ounce measuring up (1/2 cup). One (1) each 32-fluid-ounce measuring cup (1 quart).
Preperation
Clean Containers.
On the 2-quart container, mark the level of exactly four (4) fluid ounces (1/2 cup) permanently on the side (a piece of masking tape can be used).
Procedure
Graduated Cylinder Method - To 9 parts of gasoline (900 ml), add 100 ml of water for a total of 1000 ml in the graduated cylinder. Shake thoroughly, let stand for 10 minutes or until gasoline is again bright and clear. Record the apparent level of the line between the gasoline and water. This “Final Volume” is used in the calculation below.
Measuring Cup Method - To nine (9) parts of the gasoline sample (36 ounces or 1 quart plus ½ cup), add 4 fluid ounces (1/2 cup) of water for a total of 40 fluid ounces in the 2-quart container. Shake thoroughly, let stand for 10 minutes or until gasoline is again bright and clear. Record the apparent level of the line between the gasoline and water.
The Measuring Cup Method is intended to indicate the presence of alcohol and is not practical to evaluate the amount of alcohol. If the final line between gasoline and water is measurably higher than the ½ cup mark, the presence of alcohol is indicated.
NOTE: Erroneous results are probable if sample and water are not thoroughly shaken and mixed.
Calculation
Graduated Cylinder Method - Note the final volume and calculate the percentage of alcohol in the sample using the following calculation: Percentage of Alcohol in Gasoline = (Volume – 100 divided by 900) X 100.
Where: V = “Final Volume” of water as determined in procedure above (read at separation line between water and gasoline).
Precision
Within +/- 1% alcohol if you measured and recorded accurately.
Action to be Taken
In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative operations, the following observations are offered:
If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect on aircraft.
If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system for more than 24 hours, then drain and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.
If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain the fuel system, flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine long enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.
Known Problems
Alcohol attacks some seal materials and varnishes on cork floats of fuel level indicators. This could cause leakage of seals and release particles of varnish from floats, causing blocked screens in fuel lines or blocked carburetor jets. Excessive entrained water carried by alcohol could lead to fuel line blockage or blockage at screens or values when operating at low ambient temperatures at ground level or at high altitude. Fuel volatility is also increased with the addition of alcohol in a manner that is not detected by the Reid Vapor Pressure test, which is used to determine if a fuel meets the automotive specification. For example, a gasoline with alcohol will meet the Reid Vapor Pressure limit of 13.5 psi but it will behave as though it has a volatility of roughly 20 psi. Gasolines with alcohol will also phase separate. Phase separation occurs as the gasoline/alcohol blend cools, such as when a plane climbs to a higher altitude. When water that is absorbed in the fuel by alcohol comes out of solution, it takes most of the alcohol with it. The quantity that comes out of solution cannot be handled by the sediment bowl and tank sumps. Furthermore, if the alcohol is used to raise the octane of the base gasoline, the gasoline that remains will not have sufficient octane to prevent detonation. A good reference for this phase separation problem is: Paul Corp., Laboratory Investigations into the Effects of Adding Alcohol to Turbine Fuel, DOT/FAA/CT-TN88/25 July 1988, FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City International Airport, NJ 08405.
Precautionary
Gasoline is volatile, extremely flammable and harmful, or fatal if swallowed. Avoid prolonged or repeated breathing of vapor or contact with skin or eyes. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting, get medical care immediately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSQSuCiUjE
My local PCA chapter, Olympic Pennisula P C A, has arranged a group to allow us to join and purchace from Masco Petroleum, which is an "unmanned" station which bills you monthly. For the purpose of my 914 and household equipment I'm thinking of joining the group.
Look for it in your area
Look for it in your area
OK.
The above method works great.
What is needed is a tall thin glass jar with a good lid.
Marks will not stay long due to the gas so I took a glass cutter and made my marks.
It must be glass or a fuel safe (TPX) clear plastic.
I took 1000ml (1 litre or just over 1 quart) mason jar with a lid.
Marked it at 100ml, 190ml, 200ml, 240ml and 1000ml.
Add 100ml (10%) water then fill to 1000ml with gas.
Place lid on and shake well. You see the result immediately, but it wont be accurate till about 5 minutes when it all settles.
If you see no change in the water level it is gas only.
190ml and it is E-10, 10% ethanol.
200ml 11%
240ml 15% ethanol, E-15.
Now, I don't want to waste that much gas (plus you have to dump it) so I tried a baby food jar.
100ml total
Marked at 10ml, 20ml, 25ml and 100ml
Same as above, 10ml water fill with gas, >20ml is 10%, >25ml is 15% ethanol.
It works, not as accurate and not really practical at a gas station IMO.
Still looking around the house for a small, tall, thin, glass bottle with a good lid
I dont know if we have E-15 here so it would great if someone would repeat this experiment and post their results. The E-10 result looked dead nuts on.
The above method works great.
What is needed is a tall thin glass jar with a good lid.
Marks will not stay long due to the gas so I took a glass cutter and made my marks.
It must be glass or a fuel safe (TPX) clear plastic.
I took 1000ml (1 litre or just over 1 quart) mason jar with a lid.
Marked it at 100ml, 190ml, 200ml, 240ml and 1000ml.
Add 100ml (10%) water then fill to 1000ml with gas.
Place lid on and shake well. You see the result immediately, but it wont be accurate till about 5 minutes when it all settles.
If you see no change in the water level it is gas only.
190ml and it is E-10, 10% ethanol.
200ml 11%
240ml 15% ethanol, E-15.
Now, I don't want to waste that much gas (plus you have to dump it) so I tried a baby food jar.
100ml total
Marked at 10ml, 20ml, 25ml and 100ml
Same as above, 10ml water fill with gas, >20ml is 10%, >25ml is 15% ethanol.
It works, not as accurate and not really practical at a gas station IMO.
Still looking around the house for a small, tall, thin, glass bottle with a good lid
I dont know if we have E-15 here so it would great if someone would repeat this experiment and post their results. The E-10 result looked dead nuts on.
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Feb 3 2013, 11:10 AM)
Still looking around the house for a small, tall, thin, glass bottle with a good lid
Olives typically come in such a container.
Additionally, they can serve as flavorant for beverages containing 40-50% ethanol...
QUOTE(ArtechnikA @ Feb 3 2013, 11:18 AM)
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Feb 3 2013, 11:10 AM)
Still looking around the house for a small, tall, thin, glass bottle with a good lid
Olives typically come in such a container.
Additionally, they can serve as flavorant for beverages containing 40-50% ethanol...
Still kind of big, I'm looking for a taller, thinner and smaller jar to make the gas sample smaller.
I have a salt shaker that would be perfect, but it has holes in the lid.
You do need a good lid.
Just go to any lab supply and purchase a graduated cylinder .... jeeeezeee ... Your beginning to sound like Dave.
QUOTE(SLITS @ Feb 3 2013, 11:27 AM)
Just go to any lab supply and purchase a graduated cylinder .... jeeeezeee ... Your beginning to sound like Dave.
Why?
I can do the maths.
I don't have a lab supply anywhere near me, costs me gas to go to the city, costs me time, I'm worth more than $18/hr., so I may as well get the one off of ebay...but I want to know right now.
Found a spice jar that will work, plastic lid but it seems to be standing up.
Bit small (75ml) so I had to redo the maths, no big deal.
Note that I measured this with a high-end 50ml buret, that I did have.
This is the tester with 10% water in it.
With gas before shaking.
Known regular gas E-10 it's on the line that it should be on.
This should be shell super.... but it's showing 5%, they could be lying, but way more likely, since my wife picked this up, she either got shell mid-grade (which would be 5%) or picked it up from a different gas station.
I'm going to start testing the local gas suppliers
I'm going to start testing the local gas suppliers
Related question: The ethanol-free gas up here is only available in 94 octane. How should the higher octane affect my timing setting - should it be more advanced than the standard 27º BTDC?
QUOTE(john_g @ Feb 4 2013, 05:41 PM)
Related question: The ethanol-free gas up here is only available in 94 octane. How should the higher octane affect my timing setting - should it be more advanced than the standard 27º BTDC?
I wouldn't totally trust this because it could change any time they full their tanks but...
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=BC
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Feb 4 2013, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE(john_g @ Feb 4 2013, 05:41 PM)
Related question: The ethanol-free gas up here is only available in 94 octane. How should the higher octane affect my timing setting - should it be more advanced than the standard 27º BTDC?
I wouldn't totally trust this because it could change any time they full their tanks but...
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=BC
Okay, let me rephrase that: IF I get the Chevron high octane (94) gas that is most easily available at my location, will the higher octane affect my correct timing setting - should it be more advanced than the standard 27º BTDC?
I dug this thread up because of this new thread. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=231145
Post #27 I totally remember asking the wife if she got shell mid grade...it was funny at first she lied, then she admitted the premium was expensive so she cheated and got the mid-grade.
Shell here only has 2 grades of fuel, it's the pump that blends the two to get mid-grade.
Post #27 I totally remember asking the wife if she got shell mid grade...it was funny at first she lied, then she admitted the premium was expensive so she cheated and got the mid-grade.
Shell here only has 2 grades of fuel, it's the pump that blends the two to get mid-grade.
I get ethanol free gas at the local airport in my area. They say it is 100 octane. Check small airports in your area.
QUOTE(rgolia @ Feb 26 2014, 10:23 AM)
I get ethanol free gas at the local airport in my area. They say it is 100 octane. Check small airports in your area.
Ethanol free but not lead free. You can get ethanol free gas where I live at the boat marinas but I don't think it's cheap.
QUOTE(Elliot Cannon @ Feb 26 2014, 01:29 PM)
QUOTE(rgolia @ Feb 26 2014, 10:23 AM)
I get ethanol free gas at the local airport in my area. They say it is 100 octane. Check small airports in your area.
Ethanol free but not lead free. You can get ethanol free gas where I live at the boat marinas but I don't think it's cheap.
Yep, if you use leaded gas it will ruin a catalytic converter and it will also wreck O2 sensors.
Bonus. I checked that Puregas locator and see a local station has started selling ethanol free gas.
I will have to start buying gas there for the tractor, lawn mower, chainsaws etc.
I will have to start buying gas there for the tractor, lawn mower, chainsaws etc.
Yes, very old thread. Couldn't find anything much more recent and relevant.
Up until now, I had ethanol free gas options in Ontario. Not anywhere at a road gas pump in Canada anymore. If any still exists, it won't for much longer.
My go to gas was Shell premium 91 V-Power. Sticker on the pump said zero ethanol. Used it with everything from chainsaws to 914s - anything that could sit around without frequent use. Late last year I noticed the sticker disappeared and changed to may contain up to 10% ethanol. At first I didn't think much of it, but it nagged at me...
Why the change? Did some digging and it seems it is now as of 2022, a Canadian regulation that all fuel must contain ethanol. There seems to have been an exemption because of ethanol availability constraints. Fuel companies could avoid putting alcohol in some fuels. It was great marketing for Shell and the classic car crowd - not so anymore, exemptions are over. Someone claimed to have tested V-power and got 1.25% ethanol. Not verified, but better than having 10%.
Since I had an ethanol free fuel until now it wasn't a big deal. Seems all good things come to an end. I know my 74 with Webers won't like ethanol and I wonder if the 73 2.0 FI is the same?
Every winter I put in a can of Porsche Classic Fuel Additive before hibernation in with a full tank of Shell V-Power.
https://www.porsche.com/international/acces...ights/additive/
I used to be adding it to a ethanol free gas - not now. Is this a solution anymore? add it with every fill up? just for storage? does it even do anything while the car sits for 4 months???
All the fuel stabilizers, ethanol fixes, are on that additive shelf of snake oils. Do any of them actually work? or is it a "pretends to work because you can't tell if it works" snake oil? It can't get rid of the ethanol, maybe it helps suspend it better than just the refinery's additives but the ethanol is still there to attack the rubber, the injectors, the carbs, the fuel tank...
Sure, new cars don't care about ethanol and the government doesn't care about our old classics and in fact would be happy to see them all go to the scrap crusher. What are are the options for our old cars? Avgas I know cannot contain alcohol by aviation laws (vapor lock of an aircraft engine is not good) and ethanol is a big problem in marine gasoline too. Something about trying to fill up with dyed avgas or marine gas tells me that I can't just roll up with the 914 and ask for a fill up (road tax cops?). Maybe show up with the pickup truck and a 55 gallon drum and claim it is for off road use?
What are our options as ethanol creeps into everything? buy drums of toluene or xylene?
Up until now, I had ethanol free gas options in Ontario. Not anywhere at a road gas pump in Canada anymore. If any still exists, it won't for much longer.
My go to gas was Shell premium 91 V-Power. Sticker on the pump said zero ethanol. Used it with everything from chainsaws to 914s - anything that could sit around without frequent use. Late last year I noticed the sticker disappeared and changed to may contain up to 10% ethanol. At first I didn't think much of it, but it nagged at me...
Why the change? Did some digging and it seems it is now as of 2022, a Canadian regulation that all fuel must contain ethanol. There seems to have been an exemption because of ethanol availability constraints. Fuel companies could avoid putting alcohol in some fuels. It was great marketing for Shell and the classic car crowd - not so anymore, exemptions are over. Someone claimed to have tested V-power and got 1.25% ethanol. Not verified, but better than having 10%.
Since I had an ethanol free fuel until now it wasn't a big deal. Seems all good things come to an end. I know my 74 with Webers won't like ethanol and I wonder if the 73 2.0 FI is the same?
Every winter I put in a can of Porsche Classic Fuel Additive before hibernation in with a full tank of Shell V-Power.
https://www.porsche.com/international/acces...ights/additive/
I used to be adding it to a ethanol free gas - not now. Is this a solution anymore? add it with every fill up? just for storage? does it even do anything while the car sits for 4 months???
All the fuel stabilizers, ethanol fixes, are on that additive shelf of snake oils. Do any of them actually work? or is it a "pretends to work because you can't tell if it works" snake oil? It can't get rid of the ethanol, maybe it helps suspend it better than just the refinery's additives but the ethanol is still there to attack the rubber, the injectors, the carbs, the fuel tank...
Sure, new cars don't care about ethanol and the government doesn't care about our old classics and in fact would be happy to see them all go to the scrap crusher. What are are the options for our old cars? Avgas I know cannot contain alcohol by aviation laws (vapor lock of an aircraft engine is not good) and ethanol is a big problem in marine gasoline too. Something about trying to fill up with dyed avgas or marine gas tells me that I can't just roll up with the 914 and ask for a fill up (road tax cops?). Maybe show up with the pickup truck and a 55 gallon drum and claim it is for off road use?
What are our options as ethanol creeps into everything? buy drums of toluene or xylene?
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 20 2023, 08:36 PM)
Yes, very old thread. Couldn't find anything much more recent and relevant.
Up until now, I had ethanol free gas options in Ontario. Not anywhere at a road gas pump in Canada anymore. If any still exists, it won't for much longer.
My go to gas was Shell premium 91 V-Power. Sticker on the pump said zero ethanol. Used it with everything from chainsaws to 914s - anything that could sit around without frequent use. Late last year I noticed the sticker disappeared and changed to may contain up to 10% ethanol. At first I didn't think much of it, but it nagged at me...
Why the change? Did some digging and it seems it is now as of 2022, a Canadian regulation that all fuel must contain ethanol. There seems to have been an exemption because of ethanol availability constraints. Fuel companies could avoid putting alcohol in some fuels. It was great marketing for Shell and the classic car crowd - not so anymore, exemptions are over. Someone claimed to have tested V-power and got 1.25% ethanol. Not verified, but better than having 10%.
Since I had an ethanol free fuel until now it wasn't a big deal. Seems all good things come to an end. I know my 74 with Webers won't like ethanol and I wonder if the 73 2.0 FI is the same?
Every winter I put in a can of Porsche Classic Fuel Additive before hibernation in with a full tank of Shell V-Power.
https://www.porsche.com/international/acces...ights/additive/
I used to be adding it to a ethanol free gas - not now. Is this a solution anymore? add it with every fill up? just for storage? does it even do anything while the car sits for 4 months???
All the fuel stabilizers, ethanol fixes, are on that additive shelf of snake oils. Do any of them actually work? or is it a "pretends to work because you can't tell if it works" snake oil? It can't get rid of the ethanol, maybe it helps suspend it better than just the refinery's additives but the ethanol is still there to attack the rubber, the injectors, the carbs, the fuel tank...
Sure, new cars don't care about ethanol and the government doesn't care about our old classics and in fact would be happy to see them all go to the scrap crusher. What are are the options for our old cars? Avgas I know cannot contain alcohol by aviation laws (vapor lock of an aircraft engine is not good) and ethanol is a big problem in marine gasoline too. Something about trying to fill up with dyed avgas or marine gas tells me that I can't just roll up with the 914 and ask for a fill up (road tax cops?). Maybe show up with the pickup truck and a 55 gallon drum and claim it is for off road use?
What are our options as ethanol creeps into everything? buy drums of toluene or xylene?
@vitamin914 How is that '73 doing? Shoot me an email sometime.
I don't have first-hand experience with this, but apparently you can separate the ethanol out at home:
https://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Ethanol-from-Gas
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 20 2023, 11:36 PM)
What are our options as ethanol creeps into everything? buy drums of toluene or xylene?
Hah... those are both carcinogens you really shouldn't fool with. Can be fun though, I mixed some crazy stuff for my go kart when I was a kid. Toluene and nitro methanol with 110 AvGas. Whoohoo!
Anyway, if you haven't used this site to catch up on where it may still be available, https://www.pure-gas.org/ I see all the Shell stations listing 91, have they all stopped selling? Alternatives on that list?
Regarding 55gal drums, what about agricultural suppliers?
That is a tooooon of work just to not have to worry about replacing your fuel lines with modern ones...which you should be doing anyway...
Mark Henry offered earlier in this thread how to check for the % of ethanol, that's the procedure we use to scrutineer ethanol in racing (SCCA has a max allowed limit). That's the same technique as described above to separate it.
But that's a lot of work just to avoid replacing your fuel lines with new ones...
GA, living in CT where "pure gas" is just a fantasy unless you want to buy it in 5 gallon pails...and wicked expensive at that...
Mark Henry offered earlier in this thread how to check for the % of ethanol, that's the procedure we use to scrutineer ethanol in racing (SCCA has a max allowed limit). That's the same technique as described above to separate it.
But that's a lot of work just to avoid replacing your fuel lines with new ones...
GA, living in CT where "pure gas" is just a fantasy unless you want to buy it in 5 gallon pails...and wicked expensive at that...
QUOTE(Not_A_Six @ Feb 21 2023, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 20 2023, 08:36 PM)
Yes, very old thread. Couldn't find anything much more recent and relevant.
Up until now, I had ethanol free gas options in Ontario. Not anywhere at a road gas pump in Canada anymore. If any still exists, it won't for much longer.
My go to gas was Shell premium 91 V-Power. Sticker on the pump said zero ethanol. Used it with everything from chainsaws to 914s - anything that could sit around without frequent use. Late last year I noticed the sticker disappeared and changed to may contain up to 10% ethanol. At first I didn't think much of it, but it nagged at me...
Why the change? Did some digging and it seems it is now as of 2022, a Canadian regulation that all fuel must contain ethanol. There seems to have been an exemption because of ethanol availability constraints. Fuel companies could avoid putting alcohol in some fuels. It was great marketing for Shell and the classic car crowd - not so anymore, exemptions are over. Someone claimed to have tested V-power and got 1.25% ethanol. Not verified, but better than having 10%.
Since I had an ethanol free fuel until now it wasn't a big deal. Seems all good things come to an end. I know my 74 with Webers won't like ethanol and I wonder if the 73 2.0 FI is the same?
Every winter I put in a can of Porsche Classic Fuel Additive before hibernation in with a full tank of Shell V-Power.
https://www.porsche.com/international/acces...ights/additive/
I used to be adding it to a ethanol free gas - not now. Is this a solution anymore? add it with every fill up? just for storage? does it even do anything while the car sits for 4 months???
All the fuel stabilizers, ethanol fixes, are on that additive shelf of snake oils. Do any of them actually work? or is it a "pretends to work because you can't tell if it works" snake oil? It can't get rid of the ethanol, maybe it helps suspend it better than just the refinery's additives but the ethanol is still there to attack the rubber, the injectors, the carbs, the fuel tank...
Sure, new cars don't care about ethanol and the government doesn't care about our old classics and in fact would be happy to see them all go to the scrap crusher. What are are the options for our old cars? Avgas I know cannot contain alcohol by aviation laws (vapor lock of an aircraft engine is not good) and ethanol is a big problem in marine gasoline too. Something about trying to fill up with dyed avgas or marine gas tells me that I can't just roll up with the 914 and ask for a fill up (road tax cops?). Maybe show up with the pickup truck and a 55 gallon drum and claim it is for off road use?
What are our options as ethanol creeps into everything? buy drums of toluene or xylene?
@vitamin914 How is that '73 doing? Shoot me an email sometime.
I don't have first-hand experience with this, but apparently you can separate the ethanol out at home:
https://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Ethanol-from-Gas
It would be a lot of work to remove ethanol from the gas. Would have to take place in 55 gallon drums to be practical. The bigger problem is they use lower octane gas and get an octane boost from the ethanol. I don't know how many points you loose, but if you start with the Shell V-power 91 remove the ethanol you will no longer have 91 but something less.
According to one bio-fuel site..."When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane".
It is going to be a problem for all the classic cars, anything pre alcohol era (80's and earlier?). G. Bush mandated ethanol in gas in August of 2005... I would have though it happened earlier... maybe in California.
Maybe in the USA you have some options still - but like up here in Canada, they are shrinking as time goes on.
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Feb 21 2023, 04:14 PM)
That is a tooooon of work just to not have to worry about replacing your fuel lines with modern ones...which you should be doing anyway...
Mark Henry offered earlier in this thread how to check for the % of ethanol, that's the procedure we use to scrutineer ethanol in racing (SCCA has a max allowed limit). That's the same technique as described above to separate it.
But that's a lot of work just to avoid replacing your fuel lines with new ones...
GA, living in CT where "pure gas" is just a fantasy unless you want to buy it in 5 gallon pails...and wicked expensive at that...
Fuel lines are just the start - that is simple and should be done especially anything 50 years old - got to love stainless steel lines.
What about the steel gas tanks? and the aluminum and zinc parts of the carbs? What do we do with them? What about the 50 year old injectors, can they handle alcohol? They were never designed for it.
No simple answer. The ideal answer is something chemical to add to protect things - if it exists and if it is verified independently as something that works. This has had to come up with PCA members or other classic groups. Unless this is one of those "I can still get ethanol free at Joe's gas station so I'm not worried". That was me with Shell V-Power until now... no the sky may not be falling yet but it is time to start seriously thinking about it.
Yes, pure gas is becoming a fantasy everywhere... just a matter of time... the pure gas website isn't a very accurate resource anymore. Perhaps better than nothing, but I am going to invest in a small graduated cylinder to do my own checking... I don't want to be replacing my tanks and carbs, or wonder if my problems are now caused by the fuel I use.
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 21 2023, 05:04 PM)
It is going to be a problem for all the classic cars, anything pre alcohol era (80's and earlier?). G. Bush mandated ethanol in gas in August of 2005... I would have though it happened earlier... maybe in California.
Ethanol has been in gas since the 70s (earlier in some places). Law in 2005 just mandated what had previously been voluntary and driven by regional economics. Basically a sell out to the farm lobby. In the Midwest (Michigan) - there has been 10% ethanol way back in mid 80s when I had my first teener. Was easier to avoid if your wanted to but it was there none the less.
No big deal.
^^ the ethanol mandate brought along plastic tanks and fuel lines. The adoption year of which would depend on model updates. I know that compliance for some Makes started years before 2005.
Looks like the Blazer changed over to plastic for MY1999.
Looks like the Blazer changed over to plastic for MY1999.
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 21 2023, 05:20 PM)
What about the steel gas tanks? and the aluminum and zinc parts of the carbs? What do we do with them? What about the 50 year old injectors, can they handle alcohol? They were never designed for it.
No simple answer.
No simple answer.
Concur. And I ain't no chemist. But we've been running with ethanol fuel for decades now, and we're still here...
But I will offer that, outside the ethanol going after rubber lines and stuff, the strongest risk from ethanol fuel is not from the ethanol itself, but from its affinity for water. Corrosion/rust due to water getting into the fuel is what makes all that other stuff you describe go ugly...my recommendation is that if your car's gonna sit for a while (many months) then Stabil ain't really gonna fix that: drain ethanol fuel from everything (and/or replace it with spendy VP or Sunoco race gas) as much as you can. - GA
QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Feb 21 2023, 05:59 PM)
^^ the ethanol mandate brought along plastic tanks and fuel lines. The adoption year of which would depend on model updates. I know that compliance for some Makes started years before 2005.
Looks like the Blazer changed over to plastic for MY1999.
Plastic tanks came about for a couple reasons but none of them were ethanol related. Timing was sort of coincidental but not due to Ethanol. As you state, there were many cars in 90s with plastic tanks predating the 2005 Ethanol mandate.
Plastic tanks came about due to:
Impact standards - plastic tanks are more puncture resistant in crash testing.
CAFE / Fuel economy - which is driven by weight and desire for weight reductions often as a weight offset to the added steel in the body structure that was needed to pass impact.
US Govt speaks out of both sides of its mouth demanding ever increasing safety (that adds weight) and ever increasing CAFE targets that want lighter weight vehicles and more efficient engines. Since weight really isn’t going down (at vehicle level) due to mandated safety and desired features (AC, power windows, infotainment, power seats, etc) that leaves moving to smaller and smaller engines as the way to satisfy CAFE, particularly with 2.0L turbos, gasoline direct injection, etc). Ever noticed the disappearance of V8s, and even V6s?
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Feb 21 2023, 06:23 PM)
QUOTE(vitamin914 @ Feb 21 2023, 05:20 PM)
What about the steel gas tanks? and the aluminum and zinc parts of the carbs? What do we do with them? What about the 50 year old injectors, can they handle alcohol? They were never designed for it.
No simple answer.
No simple answer.
Concur. And I ain't no chemist. But we've been running with ethanol fuel for decades now, and we're still here...
But I will offer that, outside the ethanol going after rubber lines and stuff, the strongest risk from ethanol fuel is not from the ethanol itself, but from its affinity for water. Corrosion/rust due to water getting into the fuel is what makes all that other stuff you describe go ugly...my recommendation is that if your car's gonna sit for a while (many months) then Stabil ain't really gonna fix that: drain ethanol fuel from everything (and/or replace it with spendy VP or Sunoco race gas) as much as you can. - GA
Especially with the storage recommendation. And store the tank full - that minimises condensation that will form inside the tank and then will contaminate gasoline too. This is especially true for those in humid regions that get wildly fluctuating temperature and humidity in the spring and fall.
There's a few stations locally that sell E-Free fuel due to marinas and lots of boats. I use it for my Bug, 914 and lawn mower.
Once upon a time I used Avgas if anything was going to sit for a period of time. Stopped doing that. The fuel has a different thickness to it, would sometimes not like gaskets and eat them up. First few times I noticed the blue stuff around sealing surfaces, stopped using Avgas in stuff built for regular fuel.
Once upon a time I used Avgas if anything was going to sit for a period of time. Stopped doing that. The fuel has a different thickness to it, would sometimes not like gaskets and eat them up. First few times I noticed the blue stuff around sealing surfaces, stopped using Avgas in stuff built for regular fuel.
A major downside of 100LL AvGas is that it's "low lead", but only by standards of aviation. Its lead content is pretty brutal when compared to the old leaded road gasses. 100UL will leave all kinda lead deposits inside your engine. I used to use it in my race cars (I'm a pilot and can get it easily) but the internal lead deposits made it not worth the cost savings.
There's a new unleaded aviation gasoline you should watch for, called 94UL, from a company called Swift. It provides all the octane that *most* General Aviation engines need, like your typical Piper Cherokee, Cessna 152/172, Beech Musketeer, Griumman Tiger etc and they're all getting approved for it. 94UL won't have the octane that the bigger and turbocharged engines need but Swift is working on a replacement for that, too.
Watch for 94UL to come to a small airport near you.
There's a new unleaded aviation gasoline you should watch for, called 94UL, from a company called Swift. It provides all the octane that *most* General Aviation engines need, like your typical Piper Cherokee, Cessna 152/172, Beech Musketeer, Griumman Tiger etc and they're all getting approved for it. 94UL won't have the octane that the bigger and turbocharged engines need but Swift is working on a replacement for that, too.
Watch for 94UL to come to a small airport near you.
QUOTE(Root_Werks @ Feb 22 2023, 12:18 PM)
There's a few stations locally that sell E-Free fuel due to marinas and lots of boats. I use it for my Bug, 914 and lawn mower.
Once upon a time I used Avgas if anything was going to sit for a period of time. Stopped doing that. The fuel has a different thickness to it, would sometimes not like gaskets and eat them up. First few times I noticed the blue stuff around sealing surfaces, stopped using Avgas in stuff built for regular fuel.
I have found a place near me, if you can call 80 miles away near me, that sells marine ethanol free gas. Not sure about the 94UL Avgas, but there is a small airport not far away.
If I could get any of these fuels for winter storage that would be a big plus... I would have to learn to cope with stabilizer and the lowest ethanol premium fuel during the driving season.
Anyone ever use Sta-Bil 360 Marine? Makes some big claims... If true It could be an option.
https://www.boatingmag.com/we-test-sta-bil-360-marine/
I have never been a boat owner nor a pilot, so I am unfamiliar with how the fuel delivery for these modes of transport works (especially in Ontario Canada). I can't imagine I can drive up onto the dock or onto the runway apron and say "fill up my 914 please". If the cop wants to dip his finger in my 914 tank to see if it is dyed, go ahead (first find the gas tank location). Unless someone snitches I have never heard of this happening. In my 40 years of diving no one has asked to look in any of my tanks.
The only thing I can see doing is getting a DOT approved 55 gallon drum in the back of the pickup truck filled up with the claim I am using it for a land locked lake boat or off road vehicle.
I don’t know how Canada works, but here in US you just show up with 3 five gallon cans. Pay the price $$$ and walk away. Your average Scmuck isn’t buying Avgas or marine gas to put in a Honda Accord! No need for 55 gallon drums.
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