Hey, Im new to forums, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

I have been looking to start a project car since relocating to the bay area forced me to abandon my previous one. i really want to work on some kind of 914 autox/road car/rod project but I am not sure of a few things and wondered if you guys could help me clear this up a bit.

I love the looks of the 914, especially ones with the sheridan fiberglass. I love the lines,
Size, style, simplicity of the cars. I am also very interested in air cooled engines because i appreciate simple, basic mechanicals and i like the simplicity of carbs and im still pretty green with engine work and complex car mechanics. And something about putting a big american v8 in a car like this irks me a little. Seems a little ham fisted.

Is it feasible to get around 250-300 torque/hp from a built aircooled 914 engine with something like dual webers and internal mods? Is that overly excessive for a 914 street/mild track car? I dont really want to spend over 2 to 3 grand modifying the engine. I have read that 1.7L 914 engines accept upgrades better but i feel like the displacement would need to be increased to get that much power. Mechanically i believe i am capable of bolting an engine together (i rebuilt my previous nissan KA engine a couple times) but details like internal engine upgrade specifications and the power gains they yield are foreign to me.

My idea is to do some kind of tuned car with 911 suspension and running gear/ built carbed aircooled, seriously lightened interior and maybe a fiberglass widebody if i get that extreme.

Please give me some feedback!
Thanks!

No ...

With that budget, you'll be better off to get an Amurican V8 and stuff it in there.


Any aircooled T4 engine that makes that much power/torque will cost you much, much, much more. Even with a turbo or compressor.
And it won't last long.

The only "off the shelf" aircooled Porsche engine that comes close to those numbers is a 3.6L /6 and that one will cost you $10k+ to install in a 914.

I guess that isnt surprising given the little i know about built engines. Any idea what kind of performance is attainable with a few grand into an aircooled engine? (I would think bigger cylinders/cam/lifters/crank/lightened flywheel/webers/headers etc.) ... and any driveability ideas as well because i have very limited experience with what kind of effect these kinds of horsepower have on a car the size of a 914. I do know that 250 hp/tq was more than enough in most cases for my previous car, a datsun 510 coupe. I never got my ka swap done so i dont know personally.

Also any ideas on the best way to go about test driving a 914 would be helpful lol i just bought the 510 project blind i had never driven one

for your budget, you will be tight to build a stock motor let alone a race motor.

150-180 HP can be done, and has been many times, but its not done for 2-3k.

How much are you willing to spend on the car?
You may find a car that has already been built for your goals and you can take it from there...most cars can easily remove 2-3k from your wallet with ease.

You do need to drive one because 250HP is almost to much for the chassis...the car weighs 2000 lbs wet.
150 HP will beat most cars if there is a good driver behind the wheel.
Depends on what you are doing...autox or racing...and class etc.

Otherwise you can put in a subaru motor, a chevy, or a large 6 cylinder porsche motor and scare yourself silly.

Carefull of what you decide if racing is the primary goal.
Racing bodies, the class you want to race in, what is local enough for you to attend....all of that will come into play for your choice of motor...

If you end up building a great car but have no official class to race in, you may be sorry.

Rich

mwood,
Everything you listed above cylinders/pistons, cam, lifters, flywheel, crank and so forth you are already over 3k IMHO. That's not even talking assembly parts. Heads rebuilt will cost you 500 on the cheap and that's not even high performers.

I think that you would be surprised to find that 120hp in these little cars move them quite well. I'd say get ahold of a driver and do a moderate build on an already drive able car. Then while your getting to know the car build a hotter engine and take your time.

Thomas

You could add a 500 shot of Nitrus. That will give you the HP you are looking for...


For about 15 seconds...

I'm doing an Audi/VW 1.8t swap. 300+hp. All the work done by myself. I am $4000+ into it and it's not done. I bought a complete VW Passat for $1k to start. By far the cheapest way to start a conversion is with a donor car.

Any water cooled (V8, Audi, Subaru) will run ~$5000+ for everything if you do all the work yourself. 300hp/300tq is a blast in a 914! But... A lot of upgrading of various parts is required. Maybe not all at once but you will find each broken part at the most inopportune time

There are a ton of resources on this site. There is a Buick V8 conversion kit in the classifieds. That would give you close to 300hp/tq if done right. The Buick motor is all aluminum too.

It is way cheaper to buy a finished conversion car than it is to build one. It is a labor of love...

If you want to build a 914 T4 to that HP level you will be $15,000 plus into it...

I’ll give you the other side of the coin. With a worn 95 horse 2.0 I can still do 10 to 20 over any posted speed limit I come across. If I was honest, the best way for me to get more out of my 2 litre is a couple of DE days.

What minor mods on the cheap could I do to the 1.7l to get more HP?

What minor mods on the cheap could I do to the 2.0l to get more HP?
thanks,
J

One nice thing about the 914 - you can wind up through several gears in the twisties or stop light to stop light, have a ball doing it and listening to it, but not draw much attention.

I also have a fast car, but it doesn't handle like my 914. Big fast engines in the back also change handling, but it depends what you are looking for.

Concur that $2k-$3k pays for parts for a basic rebuild and maybe some nice things like 96mm pistons/cylinders, but it won't be the shot in the arm you are looking for.

Invest is a good header/exhaust system. Most bang for the buck!

You could spend $2K just on a good exhaust...

And for the dollars probably not gain much from it I suspect.

So, adding some displacement thru larger jugs/pistons....what are my none machining options for the 1.7l and what do I gain from it if I keep it fuel injected?

for 3K, you could build a 1911cc engine and use the stock FI. So long as you did everything right, got a few good deals, and your heads are not toast.

You would end up with a fastish revving engine with a nice torque curve and ~110 HP.

By keeping FI, you don't have to deal with carbs. Carbs, when running well, are great. They allow you to use higher compression, and more power. When running wrong they will drive you to drink.

Any engine you build will require machine work. Any engine. Not just T4. Bearings need to be fitted. rotating mass balanced. parts cleaned and polished. Heads rebuilt.

For big power kinds cheap, go buy a wrecked V8. An LT or LS motor in a 914 is scary.

Just remember, big power needs big rubber and big brakes and chassis reenforcement and and and and.... you get the idea.

Zach

I'm not looking for big power. I have a 76FI 2.0l in my restored 72 right now but plan to restore the 76 chassis with my son at which point I hope to rebuild the 72 1.7l engine to put back in the 72 and put the 76 engine back in the 76 but I'd like to make minor low cost improvements on the 1.7l if that is even possible to bump the HP/torque up ever so slightly to match the stock HP/Torque of the 2.0l 76?

Stock 72 1.7 is already pretty close to a stock 76 2.0 provided you are still running the 76 exhaust and emissions crap. 96mm pistions and a good cam in the 1.7 should beat a stock 76 2L.

The only way to get 250ft lbs of torque is to go with a 3.6, as Andy rightfully suggested. The engine will be 10K, the transmission additional and installation additional. But do it and you'll have a killer car. And it will be all Porsche and air cooled. But remember that 300hp in a 914 will require you to change most of the suspension and brakes as the stock set up will just not handle the additional power safely.

Lots of guys put Subi's in 914's and those motors can be modified to put out just about whatever you want, but bring money. I personally like the Subi conversions as they don't mess up the handling as other conversions that put additional weight up high.

Or you can build a hot 4 and have a very fast car, but again you need a reasonable budget. 4's can be build to put out over 200hp and close to that in torque, but not cheaply.

If your interested in putting together a great running 4 then talk to McMark on this site. If you want to put it together yourself he'd probably help you to source the parts and make sure you ended up with something that matches your objective.

And if you want to race.....well that is an entirely new subject.

with the 96mm pistons and a modified cam will I still keep the same stroke as the 1.7 stock? Will the 1.7l case require boring at the cylinder sleeves to fit the 96mm?
thanks,
J

About 10hp on a stock engine.
The same exhaust is essential to a larger displacement engine or it won't make the desired power either.
Any oversize type four running through the stock HE system is leaving a lot of hp on the table.

stock stroke will give you 1911cc. NO case mods required.

Sure, piece of cake........but bring your time, big money ,& effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB0fTcTHkg4...ayer_detailpage

hey i just want to thank everyone so much for responding so quickly and in so much detail!

I really appreciate the information you guys have given me, Im taking it into account.

maybe ~ 150 hp/tq is more what im looking for. especially as a gateway into the world of racing/914s.
a couple more questions then Ill get out of yalls hair

I have looked into the subi swap but I would like to go pretty low with the car and i read that you need to convert whatever engine you use to a dry sump for clearance.
sounds like a pain...

where is the best place to get 911 suspension parts for conversion on 914s. sounds incredibly expensive. also which models should I take from in the 911 range?
I would want to do struts/brakes/hubs/whatever in between you need to get those items together. thats best case scenario financially.

also, if someone who has too much time on his/her hands could give me a quick sample build of a 1.7/2L with about 125-150 hp/tq like what I would generally need to do to the motor that would be great.

thanks!

I don't know who told you you'd need to dry sump a Subaru, but from now on be suspicious of any advice they give because they don't know what they're talking about. My car's about as low as any, and I don't have any more clearance problems than a T4 would have. Build link in my sig.

I'm not suggesting a Subaru conversion though, that's way more in cost and work than you want. You'll get the advice you need here, but these aren't T1 engines, and there isn't a large aftermarket with cheap parts. For engine-related specifics also try the Type 4rum at Shoptalkforums.com. For car information this is the place.

You can get a lot of answers in the "classics" section, posts that did a good job of addressing various topics.

Also just for fun...bored in class

You got lucky! There are three good places to get parts in the bay area:

- EASY in Emeryville
- Parts Heaven in Hayward
- High Performance House (HPH) in Redwood City

All three are places where Porsche's go to die.

Both Parts Heaven and HPH have a *HUGE* inventory of used parts while EASY is a smaller establishment but generally has more reasonable prices.

I second the recommendation for HPH. Rich Bontempi's the guy there...I bought 5-lug rear hubs from him (converted 4-lugs, but with extra metal welded in at the stud seats) and 911 front struts/hubs/discs with M calipers. You can use 914/6 rear rotors with the stock 914 calipers, but uou neet to lathe down their OD a couple of mm for clearance.

I don't think the V-8 approach is ham-fisted at all, especially if you go with an aluminum LS1, but I'll admit it's not the ideal setup for racing/auto-x. Total weight is equivalent to a "big 6" conversion...about 150 lb. increase, most of it within the wheelbase. Keep the power/torque reasonable, say 250/250 to the wheels and the 901 will be fine, and it's an easy job to lengthen the shift rod 1.25". Contrary to rumor, more weight up high will not ruin the handling; heavy crank, harmonic damper, rods, etc. are pretty low in the engine, composite manifold up high is pretty light, etc. F-Body wet sump gives good clearance...easy. Mine's fuel injected with "modern" (vintage 2000) fuel injection, so driveability is wonderful, and it gets 25 mpg on the highway with taller HB gears in 5th. Probably quieter at cruise than stock Type 4...hot tip is to merge exhaust to eliminate drone of true dual. Mine has a transverse muffler with two inlets and two outlets. It's soooo much fun sneaking up on unsuspecting Corvettes, M3s, etc.!!

A Type 4 with this kind of output would be highly unlikely, cost tens of thousands of dollars and have a life expectancy of a snowman in Phoenix. You can keep feeding crack to the hamster, but at some point...kabloooey! The V-8 is nicely understressed.

Still have the MR2 I sold you? Or maybe you're a different mwood?

--Doug

Oh Lord! That image is likely to haunt me for a while...


.

Thanks! Ill write those down.

Sounds like I need to consult an expert. Or someone who has experience building the 4 engines. Lots of good info here for sure though, keep it coming if you want. Im going to check out the aforementioned 4rum spot right now.

Anybody have suggestions on bay area people/shops who will be able to guide me through the process of figuring out what engine/mods i want?
or where to go for in-person info anyway.
Regardless, im starting with a stock 914 as soon as i get the financial aspect of this deal figured out. Just to drive around and maintain a stock car i expect will provide a wealth of information.

Again, thanks!

People are pretty rad on this forum i love it. Much less flamin than ive seen elsewhere.

Different mwood

I guess ham fisted was a poorly chosen phrase. I just like the idea of air cooled engines i guess but who knows. Nothins off the table at this point.

for a small budget, expect about 100hp
actually its hard to even rebuild a motor for 3k

for 10K you can get a 4cylinder up to 200hp or so

Your location sez Los Altos so it might be a hike to get up to "mcMark" in Sonoma, but it is WELL worth the journey! He is one of 'the men' in the Bay Area that knows his stuff and can guide you on your journey. Be clear about your goals and budget and timing and work with him....his 'original customs' banner advert is on the site.

and don't be fooled - there's flames here! LOL

cheers - and welcome!

<OT - can we please get a smiley with a glass of cabernet to toast with?>

td

I totally get that you want to stay air-cooled. LS1 conversion is not for everyone! I have to say, there was some guilt involved in pulling the perfectly good 2.0-liter to make room for several extra cylinders. But I sold it to a really good guy on the board here, and he's loving it.

BTW if you live in Los Altos we should get together and chat about motors.

I'm on Lundy Lane across the bridge from "Tom's." 650 823-1168.

If you're looking for around 150 HP you can get a Subaru EJ22 (142hp 155ft/lbs) out of any 90-94 Legacy or 95-01? Impreza. I paid about $350 for mine and another $120 for a FWD tranny out of a Legacy. As of today I'm in to my ENTIRE project at about $700. IanM owns coldwater914.com and custom fabs a handful of very useful, time/headache saving parts to make the conversion go a little more smoothly. I'll be going to him for an engine/tranny mount the second I get my tax returns. There are 1000 and 1/2 threads on here about Subaru H4/H6 builds as well as many other various 4-6-8 cylinder builds. Use the information everyone else already has here.

I'm also a former 240sx guy.

A motor swap is your only budget option for power.

With 2-3k budget you'll get another 10-20hp out of a 1.7. (Swap in a 2.0 and put a header and exhaust on it)

With a 2-3k budget you could throw a mass of engines from pick and pull or similar. Subaru is one of the common ones, but your options range from the following
130hp subaru, rotary's, turbo'ed engine, a slew of VW/Audi engines (such as the 1.8turbo or v6), old chevy carbed v8's and v6's, and even aluminum buick v8's. Basically anything under the sun. In fact I know of a 914 that has a SR20DET in it.

If your engine runs good I would throw an exhaust on it till you like the sound and drive it. If its to slow, spend 2 months reading this forum on "conversions" and determine whats best for you and your skills. Then start collecting parts. Dont remove your old engine till you have everything for your swap, have it all wired and running, and your new radiator setup installed and lines plumbed. Then you will only be down for a month or so figuring out your new setup.