Today at the track, with my new Hoosier A6's, I was lifting the inside front tire. I had installed 180 lb springs, took off the rear sway bar and tightened up the front 19mm Tarrett just a little. Everyone at the track told me that I needed beefier springs in the back. Well, I have 220 lbs springs, shall I try them? Shall I leave the sway bar off? Should I soften or tighten the front sway bar? Oh, I am running 205/15 on 5.5 rims. I am looking at 7" rims to get the patch better. Any other recommendations?

If the car feels balanced I wouldn't really worry about it as its quite common. What size torsion bars are you running? I'm running 22 mm torsion bars with a 19mm swaybar on full stiff and 250 pound springs in the rear. My car is just a touch tail happy but doesn't lift the inside front as much as it used to with the 180 pounders.

I'm running 240 lb springs in back and no sway bar. The Smart Racing front sway bar is the lightest one (of three) offered and is set soft for Autox. When running the track I tighten up the front adjuster to the middle setting on the Smart Racing setup.

A lot of what you depends upon the overall weight of the car.

Randal, I see in your avatar that your front ends lifts as well or is that an old photo? To me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that lifting that leading front tire is not the fastest way around the track. I think I will leave the 180 lb springs on for now and re-install the rear sway bar and see what happens. Maybe I will soften the front 19mm sway bar a little as well.

Ignore when people tell you a tire is coming off the ground and go by how the car feels.

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If you look closely at that avatar, you see that the rear wheel is off the ground as well.

To be honest I'm not sure whether that was before the change to 240 springs or not.

I also agree with the post Chris made as if the car feels good, go with it. In my case I was surprised when Trekkor took that picture showing the car up on two wheels as the car felt perfect.

If you reinstall the rear sway bar it might help to keep the wheels down, but now you have two issues (really three) to worry about in the rear, i.e., shocks, springs and sway bar.

So, I guess what I am hearing you pro's say is to not worry about trying to get the wheel down if the car feels good. Well, now that I am a fully experienced 4 AX driver, how the hell do I know? I think it handles better than before, but I still feel like I am doing a lot of drifting around the cones. That can't be the fastest route, can it?

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

The rear, I guess, since right now there is only one wheel on the ground in the front.

So was the car loose in front, i.e., understeering?

Or loose in the back, i.e., oversteering?

If the back end is loose you need to stiffen up the front. If the car plows you need to stiffen the rear. I'd toss the rear swaybar unless you have a limited slip differential.



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It seemed pretty balanced to me. I felt like I was in control of the car, not the car of me. It just didn't seem like I was driving smooth, but maybe that's me. With more seat time, I guess I will figure it out.

Its an addiction. There is no substitute for seat time.

+1

Have you attended any autox schools, as they're the best place to learn the basics and get lots of seat time.

Of all the students I've instructed about 5% were out of the box good drivers. And even those people were missing one or two of the critical basics.

If you're not feeling smooth it's likely you're driving the corner you're in as opposed to the next corner. Think about it...if you're looking at the next corner you'll naturally end up taking the corner you're in more smoothly. If you driving the corner you're in, then the exit on just about every corner will end up being a surprise.

In autox we don't like surprises!

I sold the 914 I'd been modifying for 12-14 years when I retired.
It was fairly successful at AX & fun to drive. I had an MR2 turbo as a DD & figured that it might be fun to run in C Stock. Did new shocks & got me some R spec Kumhos. The Toyoda did all the things it was supposed to do.....my driving was crummy, as was the norm, BUT , it was not fun. The car was heavy, under powered, & flaccid.

No gettin' around it, I was spoiled & too old to learn to like slow. The old 914 was good enough to make me look good too.

So, take your time, learn your trade, and enjoy. When the joy stopped, so did I.

Yeah, I miss it.

Think about the wheel lifting this way - If you lift the front tire, did the front end get loose? If not, then you had enough grip with only 1 tire on the ground.

I think that when I AX I'm trying too hard to go fast. You may go faster by working on better entry/exit lines, rather than 'going faster'. That's where I am. Trekkor's last AX school at Infineon had a tight 180 corner and I just couldn't get around it without massive understeer. I tried to force oversteer, I tried to just plow through, but at the end of the day I realized that I simply needed to go slower. I never did get to put that in practice, so next time out I'll be working on that.

What you learned is that certain corners have to be given up. Look at it this way: if on a tight corner the car starts to understeer, then just start a stopwatch and stop it when the understeer stops and the car starts going the direction of the course. Whatever time is on that watch is LOST! You will never make it up.

Know when to give up a corner.

I luv 180s. Most guys give up on em'.

There is a way to deal with em' and make up time on the 95 % "give it up" crowd.


Watch the guys that know and you'll get the idea. I learnt a few things over the years......just not enuff .....but 180s are one. The driving part is simple even tho they are all different.....with practice......one pass was enough. The corner itself is not that much quicker, but faster.....and the exit is also . While most are grinding off their front tires, I'm gone..

The car set up part fit with my AX standard method, so it was easy also.

OK Coach, tell us 95%ers how.

If the car feels as good as you say then don't do anything but drive it. I have several pictures of my race cars lifting wheels. It's no big deal and it makes for great pictures. LOL

OK, First you need a car that oversteers. By that I mean that if you come into any corner too hot (not on the brakes), does the back end step out?. That is oversteer and that's what I want. Not the hot ticket at track, but we ain't there.

Then late apex ( not at 12 o'clock but at about 10-10:30) the cone. Come in hot & deep on a wide line.....maybe 1-1/2 or 2 car lenghts, get your braking done in a straight line and turn in hard, aiming for the backside of the come......you don't want any plow here ......all is not lost if you're too hot (to a point) cause the back end coming around is gonna help keep things semi-tidy. If you do that right you're already OTG but when you pass the cone's backside hard OTG....the back end comes loose but hang with it & unwind the wheel....learning to live with opposite lock is part of the drill. Do this right and it's fun & fast. You are already at a much higher speed than one that is toodling around the cone and the motor should on song......maybe as much as 10mph faster. .....thus the not quicker but faster bit. What you do with all that extra speed is up to you.....

Sure, it takes some practice to develop the required judgement but what else youz' guys getting 8-12 runs at LPR got to do?.....besides use up your good tires. In hot, thrash around & exit hot.....the trashing around bit is what you want to eliminate. Practice, practice........

Once you got the drill down (and you'll know it when you feel it) one pass ought to do it for that corner.

Here's a vid of doing a whole bunch wrong. The cone at the end is not 180 deg but 110 or 120 deg, but can see what I mean about oversteer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgdDLsj8Vaw

Got it right on the next run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSZZ6LuN7fI

Nice DNF in the first one.

Where do I keep an eye out for AX schools?

Or, for those with less power that can't get their rear end to step out using the gas pedal, you can also get your braking done *while* you're turning in (trail-braking).

If done correctly, it will have the same effect as described above ...

+1 Yup.

Various ways: As above, i.e, trail braking, Ebraking, powering the rear end out, oversteer built in or reachable through steering input, power or combination of both or downshifting and rapid release of the clutch.

I've use the clutch trick on tight right or left handers at the Marina. Did it at Brad's suggestion and the car rotated so fast I had to laugh. It was simply insane how fast the car turned. Not sure it's good on the transmission, but it sure snapped the end around quick. BTW it only works when you are on a straight in third and end up with a right or left that is tight, but short.

Great explaination JP. You can do it in 222 next time I come up there!

Well, I reckon.......my wrists are all swolt up right now but I'm hoping for a recovery.
Then again, it ain't like ridding a bicycle. My last AX was down in Medford with you.

Thanks for the driving tips guys. I cannot wait to get back on the track. I've got 7 inch wheels and rear coil over springs coming. I ordered 225 lb springs and will leave the rear sway bar off for now.

Already a bunch of good comments here...

If the car feels balanced right now, don't change it. So what if it's lifting a wheel? It's a rear wheel drive, rear weight biased car. Adding the rear bar might help keep the front wheel down, but will make wheel spin a much bigger issue. A mid engined car will always tend to unweight the inside front tire. The stiffer the roll bar in front, the more you are coupling the movement of the outboard (loaded) suspension with the inboard (unloaded) suspension. More coupling, more movement. When the outboard side compresses, so will the inboard, further unloading the inboard wheel.

If you start lifting a REAR wheel, then you need to change something.

Heck, I've seen championship winning cars that could clear a beer car with the inside front tire (usually in stock class though)...

-Josh

AX driving "tricks" to make a car do something are best avoided, IMO.
Bandaids are for there for repairing cuts.

Let's look at trail braking to make the back end step out, for instance. Personally, I dialed out the step-out with the brake bias valve......I want control. Trail braking causes the front tires to do 2 things......slow the car and turn in. Remember the "traction circle"? I prefer using the all the grip for turn rather than to slow the car. When you get off the brake after turn in, the front un-weights the front tires.....grip changes again. Trail braking to me is an emergency situation cause I've screwed up and am too hot. Sure, all the driving schools teach trail braking but as JYS (a straight line breaker) says "How many F1 races has he won?"

The same can be said (and I do) about those that preach the clutch tricks.

Setting up a car to consistently behave as you want it is tough enough without muddying the waters with so called tricks. 914s are happiest when stuck to the pavement......or both end sliding the same amount (a true drift). With the latter, the dreaded snap spin is within a hairsbreadth......ayup, a spin. You can't drift a pusher.

OK, I am ready for Tuesday's corner balance. Here is what I have done so far in preparation:

Hoosier A6s on 7x15 Revolutions with 1/4" spacers (Wheels are very heavy but will have to do for now.

Front:
Bilstein struts
New polybronze bushings
All the neg camber I can get with moving the strut inboard (LF -1.1 deg RF -.6, measured with car level with a digital level.)
19mm anti-sway bar at softest position for now
22mm torsion bars

Rear:
Bilstein shocks with Ground Control coil overs 225 lb springs
All the neg camber I can get by removing all shims.
LR -1.8 degs RR -2.2 degs

I guess when my man gets his equipment on the car, I will know more about what I have.

I didn't bother measuring the toe as it will be aligned.

Any suggestions on toe measurements and than book measurements?

You need more front negative camber. Front grip is gonna your challenge, as I read your set-up.
I ran 0 toe at both ends AND as close as possible to 0 thrust angle. Don't overlook that aspect. The car will be "darty" on the road,

Are you allowed to slot the strut towers to get more negative camber up front?
What's your ride height? Lowering the car a quarter inch will give you more negative camber.
Did you make your measurements with your weight in the drivers seat?

I would start with the a/s bar adjusted to the middle.

I would set toe at zero front and rear.
Toe in at the front is fine to compensate for stock tie-rods but doesn't benefit handling.
Toe out at the front improves turn in at the expense of high speed stability.
Toe in at the rear reduces oversteer, especially with a higher powered engine.
Toe out at the rear will make the car spin easily.

You can go until the camber plate hits the inside of the strut tower as long as you've already removed the shock cover tube.
After that it takes aftermarket camber plates from Elephant, etc.
or you can make your own the way I did, but you have to replace the rubber bushings with "Camber Balls" or a homemade spherical bearing setup.

The way I made my first modified camber plates from stock pieces:
Use a hole saw to cut out the center section around the bushing support flange.
Then use the same hole saw to carefully cut out a crescent piece to the inside of the hole you just created. It may require temporarily tackwelding a plate over the big hole to provide a 1/4" center hole for the holesaw.
Tack weld the center section back in place in the inner position.
Make a new crescent shaped filler piece to finish the assembly and weld everything up solid. You could use the original cutout crescent but the holesaw removes a lot of metal and the gaps are awfully big to fill.
Its a timeconsuming procedure so not feasible for a custom product IMO, but is a good DIY project for someone with the right tools.

The above sure seems like a hell of a lot of work to get 3/4 of a degree.

What I did in preparation for tomorrow's corner balancing is I lowered the front about 1/4" and matched up the two sides. Of course this is without me in the seat. I then matched the rear to the front for approximately equal right heights. I leveled the car in the garage and measured the toe again. Here is what I got this time:

LR Old -1.8, new -2.8
LF Old -1.1, new -1.9
RR Old -2.2, new -2.6
RF Old -.6, new -1.1

We will see what they get tomorrow with accurate measuring devices.

Except for the right front that looks pretty good.
The excess rear camber can be adjusted with shims.

So, I should shoot for -2.0 degs in the rear?

-2.5 is probably better.

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-2.5 is probably better.
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Well, the car handled great this Saturday. It feels a little different than it did before, but I think the changes are to the better. The inside front wheel did not lift like it did before. The car seemed to handle with just a touch of over-steer, I think about the way it was before. I only got in about 7 runs as I blew a alternator belt during the first run. Had to go into town to get another. Dam, I left my package of spare parts in the garage. Anyway, my first time was 48.750 and my last was 46.109. That's a 2.641 second improvement. I think if I had had a few more runs, I could have gotten into the 45s. I was starting to get a good feel of the car.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I really appreciate the time you took. I am sure the folks that were following this thread learned a lot too.

Edit:

I am looking into having some lighter wheels built, so these Revolutions may soon be available. I will post price and all in the classifieds when ready.

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