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Full Version: 914RS4 Tube Chassis 996 Suspension Audi 2.7TT Stage 3
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Curbandgutter
Thanks guys, I know what you mean I feel the same way. Just picked up a set of rims and tires so that I can use on the "roller". I didn't want to roll on the Rivieras so I picked up these 996 Hollow Spoke Turbo Twist wheels. They are 18x8.5 F 18x11 R.
Andyrew
Mmmm good choice of wheels smile.gif
Curbandgutter
Well I have half a roller. Tomorrow I hope to bolt up front. Will be rolling by saturday. I'm really digging how the car looks with the extended wheel base. It puts the rear tire closer to the rear bumper and gives it a more cat like stance. I can't wait!!!!
Curbandgutter
I need to update the title of this build! Anyone know how?
Andyrew
Edit your first post, up top there will be the ability to edit the header. (Full Edit)
tygaboy
Rudy - you need some "body" to go with that "wide"!
Looks killer. What are your plans for the flares?
Mueller
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Feb 7 2017, 08:37 PM) *

Rudy - you need some "body" to go with that "wide"!
Looks killer. What are your plans for the flares?



I vote for mudflaps!


Seriously, awesome progress!
AZBanks
QUOTE(Mueller @ Feb 8 2017, 08:36 AM) *

QUOTE(tygaboy @ Feb 7 2017, 08:37 PM) *

Rudy - you need some "body" to go with that "wide"!
Looks killer. What are your plans for the flares?



I vote for mudflaps!


Seriously, awesome progress!

I second the call for mudflaps. It has a really cool dirt track modified look going on. You should keep it as is with some mud flaps. aktion035.gif aktion035.gif aktion035.gif driving.gif
Curbandgutter
Its going to have mudflaps like these.
Curbandgutter
WE GOT A ROLLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tygaboy
Sorry, I don't see the milk crate so no points... lol-2.gif

Seriously - what a COOL look! You have to be totally psyched to have it on wheels.
Congrats on a major milestone!! aktion035.gif aktion035.gif
Andyrew
Looks fantastic!! Congrats!
csdilligaf
Way to go Rudy!!! I knew on Sunday with no rain you would be up there working on it. I am digging' those wheels on it. And the Momo Steering wheel is a nice touch.
jd74914
Sweet!! That's awesome!! Can't wait to see it at ride height with some flares!

Could you take a side profile shot? I'm just curious to see how far the rear wheels really are back. smile.gif
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Feb 12 2017, 04:29 PM) *

Sorry, I don't see the milk crate so no points... lol-2.gif

Seriously - what a COOL look! You have to be totally psyched to have it on wheels.
Congrats on a major milestone!! aktion035.gif aktion035.gif


Totally psyched. Its a really good feeling to see it on the ground.



Curbandgutter
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 12 2017, 05:17 PM) *

Looks fantastic!! Congrats!


Thanks Andrew.
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(csdilligaf @ Feb 13 2017, 06:36 AM) *

Way to go Rudy!!! I knew on Sunday with no rain you would be up there working on it. I am digging' those wheels on it. And the Momo Steering wheel is a nice touch.


Thanks Chip. Damn right I was going to be working on it. Thanks to you, I was able to get the wheels. Yes that Momo was a Christmas present.
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Feb 13 2017, 09:33 AM) *

Sweet!! That's awesome!! Can't wait to see it at ride height with some flares!

Could you take a side profile shot? I'm just curious to see how far the rear wheels really are back. smile.gif


I can't either. Flares are going to wait a little bit since I want to install motor and tranny and I still have to do the twist test. smile.gif

Attached, just for you, is a profile showing the "extended wheelbase"
calilumber
Lets go, start dropping in trans and that Audi is not gonna pull its own engine!
csdilligaf
I just got back from California MotorSports in Lake Havasu Arizona after having them install the Wavetech LSD in the Cayman S 6 speed. I have been working on mating the trans and engine so Rudy and I know what to expect. If I work out those details it will speed along the process for him and he can focus on other parts of the build.
I have a Fidanza aluminum flywheel and an RS4 clutch package. First there is a 1" thick spacer on the crank face of engines that came from an Automatic equipped car, I put steel rod in the holes and tapped it a little while going from hole to hole, popped right off. Warm up the flywheel so the hole grows enough to slip over the crank locating boss. The bolt holes will only line up one way, they are not equally spaced. If you warm the flywheel to about 180/200 degrees on a hot plate it will give you time to align it with a bolt or two before it tightens up. Use the 1mm thick shim from the automatics flex plate in the same location under the bolts to prevent galling and help torque to correct specs.
I will make a drill fixture plate with bushings so that three stud holes can be drilled and tapped along the bottom of the G87.21 trans making it fully bolted to the Audi 2.7T.
It appears that the Cayman S trans has a boss that needs to be drilled out for the crank sensor. The boss is in the same location as the Audi manual transmission and I have seen it done on an Audi swap into a Boxster S in the UK.
We will need to use the transmission spacer from the Audi automatic trans that is 7/16" thick. The RS4 clutch disk fits on the Cayman S spline and the pilot shaft fits into the pilot bearing perfectly.
Now we just need to figure out the Vehicle Speed Sensor. Maybe something mounted on the CV joint. It is a magnet pulse type. Rudy has one from his parts Audi and I purchased the sensor and the pulse ring new. The pulse ring is smaller than a CV joint so we may have to try and replicate the pulse some how. Any electrical engineer types out there that know how to figure it out? Here is the basics of it.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/228211.phtml
Maybe we can adapt the 996 abs sensor and reluctor ring to duplicate the pulse?
Andyrew
Regarding your clutch. A standard B5 RS4 clutch isnt the hot ticket now adays. Apparently the B7 clutch pressure plate is that much better. This might require a custom flywheel, check into the S4 forums to find out what they are doing. If I swapped out my clutch again ( I have a stage 3 S4 clutch) I might go this route.


Regarding your VSS You could simply count the pulses on the stock VSS pickup, fab up that many 1/8-1/4" steel teeth and weld them onto your CV flange, then fab a mount for the VSS.
csdilligaf
It may not be the hottest ticket but I think it will hold the power for now and was cheap. Now Rudy may want to look into that because I know he will be looking for more power than me. I will be at 375/400 with 550cc injectors and Ko4 turbos on E85. And may still have to go with something like the stage 3 like you have now. I just really like the ease of a build that is bolt together with no custom and expensive parts.
I have done the flange modification you mentioned for the VSS but it was on an LS swap and the sensor had the magnet in it and was an easy set up to do. It looks to me like the Audi VSS has the magnetic pick up in the reluctor wheel and if flips from North to South? I suppose I could use magnets in the flange this time and just flip them according to push and pull magnetic field?
jd74914
QUOTE(csdilligaf @ Feb 22 2017, 10:52 AM) *

Now we just need to figure out the Vehicle Speed Sensor. Maybe something mounted on the CV joint. It is a magnet pulse type. Rudy has one from his parts Audi and I purchased the sensor and the pulse ring new. The pulse ring is smaller than a CV joint so we may have to try and replicate the pulse some how. Any electrical engineer types out there that know how to figure it out? Here is the basics of it.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/228211.phtml
Maybe we can adapt the 996 abs sensor and reluctor ring to duplicate the pulse?


I'm very surprised it's a magnetic ring. It looks like the magnets close a reed switch so to produce a square wave, so you could likely switch to a hall effect gear tooth sensor and use an 8 toothed wheel added to the outside of your CV boot, etc. rather than add magnets to something.
Andyrew
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Feb 22 2017, 08:45 AM) *

QUOTE(csdilligaf @ Feb 22 2017, 10:52 AM) *

Now we just need to figure out the Vehicle Speed Sensor. Maybe something mounted on the CV joint. It is a magnet pulse type. Rudy has one from his parts Audi and I purchased the sensor and the pulse ring new. The pulse ring is smaller than a CV joint so we may have to try and replicate the pulse some how. Any electrical engineer types out there that know how to figure it out? Here is the basics of it.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/228211.phtml
Maybe we can adapt the 996 abs sensor and reluctor ring to duplicate the pulse?


I'm very surprised it's a magnetic ring. It looks like the magnets close a reed switch so to produce a square wave, so you could likely switch to a hall effect gear tooth sensor and use an 8 toothed wheel added to the outside of your CV boot, etc. rather than add magnets to something.


I was thinking the same thing smile.gif

You could test it on a abs sensor before fabing it up to see if the voltages on the hall sensor read correctly in the ecu.
eeyore
Coming from ignorance here...

Why would there be a separate vehicle speed sensor when there are ABS sensor and reluctor rings on all four corners of a 996?

Maybe, as stated earlier, the wave form is different.

(I plan on doing a VW/Audi swap, too. Someday....)
eeyore
Rudy or Chip -- What is the hub face to hub face dimension across the rear suspension?
jd74914
QUOTE(Mark Garriott @ Feb 22 2017, 12:18 PM) *

Coming from ignorance here...

Why would there be a separate vehicle speed sensor when there are ABS sensor and reluctor rings on all four corners of a 996?

Maybe, as stated earlier, the wave form is different.

(I plan on doing a VW/Audi swap, too. Someday....)


It's a good question. In a perfect world they really shouldn't; vehicle speed should come from some combination of wheel speed sensors when so-equipped. Not sure of the VW/Audi/Porsche reason, but some cars have them because of the way the controls are divorced between ABS, traction control, dash, and engine. A communication bus will link all of the computers, but there can be a bit of latency or sharing problems in between legacy hardware pieces. Just speculation, but ABS controller isolation might be the primary reason. Or perhaps legacy engine management code, etc.
eeyore
Ah, yes. I remember hearing the early 986/996 had a 3 way ABS system that was virtually standalone.
csdilligaf
Rudy has his to a point he could check that. He says its like 5" wider than the stock 914 but maybe he can verify. I'm out east of you in Alpine if you ever want to stop by and check out my build so far let me know.
I suspect we will have to figure the pulse/wave thing. I see on my axles that the ABS ring has like 80-100 teeth so with modification maybe something can work out there.
eeyore
Hi Chip,

I visited you a couple of times five or so years ago, to see your 993-based car.

I am glad to see you are still tinkering on 914s. I have since moved to Idaho. But I brought my 914 with me. Gotta change my profile...
Andyrew
QUOTE(Mark Garriott @ Feb 22 2017, 09:18 AM) *

Coming from ignorance here...

Why would there be a separate vehicle speed sensor when there are ABS sensor and reluctor rings on all four corners of a 996?

Maybe, as stated earlier, the wave form is different.

(I plan on doing a VW/Audi swap, too. Someday....)



Audi typically builds in some redundancy. Many sensors only drive the gauge cluster.

For example Audi uses two coolant temp sensors, one for the fan control unit an one for the ECU.
csdilligaf
Andrew, When we get to that stage can we count on some help in the gauge cluster dept? We both are going to use the Audi one like you did. Looks close to the 914 and would nice to keep it. Did you have any warning lights that go off in the cluster or are they programed out by your tune? Like ABS, Check engine, air bag and the sort? I don't know what to expect really.
Andyrew
ABS triggers a chime in the back of the cluster that I disconnected manually. Air bag light is on, but the check engine light doesnt come on as all the sensors not used have been coded out.

I'll be putting some resistors for the air bag light or simply remove the bulb. I plan on using the ABS stuff from the Audi so that light will stay in.
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(Mark Garriott @ Feb 22 2017, 09:19 AM) *

Rudy or Chip -- What is the hub face to hub face dimension across the rear suspension?

Take a look at post 61 top of page 4. It has an Acad drawing with the dimension that you are looking for I believe it's 5.21' or 5' 2-1/2"

Rudy
eeyore
QUOTE(Curbandgutter @ Feb 22 2017, 01:59 PM) *

QUOTE(Mark Garriott @ Feb 22 2017, 09:19 AM) *

Rudy or Chip -- What is the hub face to hub face dimension across the rear suspension?

Take a look at post 61 top of page 4. It has an Acad drawing with the dimension that you are looking for I believe it's 5.21' or 5' 2-1/2"

Rudy


Hot diggity! Thanks
Mike Bellis
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 22 2017, 01:47 PM) *

ABS triggers a chime in the back of the cluster that I disconnected manually. Air bag light is on, but the check engine light doesnt come on as all the sensors not used have been coded out.

I'll be putting some resistors for the air bag light or simply remove the bulb. I plan on using the ABS stuff from the Audi so that light will stay in.

I used a black paint pen and covered the back of the display where the lamp shines through. So my ABS light is on but I can't see it. I also cut the chime but left it repairable.
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 22 2017, 12:47 PM) *

ABS triggers a chime in the back of the cluster that I disconnected manually. Air bag light is on, but the check engine light doesnt come on as all the sensors not used have been coded out.

I'll be putting some resistors for the air bag light or simply remove the bulb. I plan on using the ABS stuff from the Audi so that light will stay in.


I wonder how hard it would be to use the 996 ABS system in my car. I have the entire system. Huuuuuuum. We need to talk.
jd74914
QUOTE(Curbandgutter @ Feb 24 2017, 08:55 PM) *

I wonder how hard it would be to use the 996 ABS system in my car. I have the entire system. Huuuuuuum. We need to talk.


Easy peasy. The 951 guys use 996/Boxster ABS systems all of the time. The older Bosch ABS 5.3 systems (with 2 rows of pins) are standalone so you can run them pretty easily. All you really need besides the ABS valve/control block is the 4 wheel speeds and a power supply. By all reports they work pretty well for 3-channel ABS.

I'm planning on it actually... smile.gif
Cracker
Rudy - ABS is for wussies...REAL men lockem up at great speed; REAL drivers do it occasionally too. You do not need braking nannies... poke.gif

T

QUOTE(Curbandgutter @ Feb 24 2017, 08:55 PM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 22 2017, 12:47 PM) *

ABS triggers a chime in the back of the cluster that I disconnected manually. Air bag light is on, but the check engine light doesnt come on as all the sensors not used have been coded out.

I'll be putting some resistors for the air bag light or simply remove the bulb. I plan on using the ABS stuff from the Audi so that light will stay in.


I wonder how hard it would be to use the 996 ABS system in my car. I have the entire system. Huuuuuuum. We need to talk.

jd74914
P/N 99635575503 is the unit most people use IIRC. I've actually got one on order. laugh.gif The hard part is finding the unpinned mating connector.
Andyrew
QUOTE(Curbandgutter @ Feb 24 2017, 05:55 PM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 22 2017, 12:47 PM) *

ABS triggers a chime in the back of the cluster that I disconnected manually. Air bag light is on, but the check engine light doesnt come on as all the sensors not used have been coded out.

I'll be putting some resistors for the air bag light or simply remove the bulb. I plan on using the ABS stuff from the Audi so that light will stay in.


I wonder how hard it would be to use the 996 ABS system in my car. I have the entire system. Huuuuuuum. We need to talk.



The audi ABS system is incorperated into the stability control system
It uses the steering wheel angle, the abs wheel speed as well as 2ea yaw sensors.
What it does is it has a pump that constantly primes the ABS box and when it senses a situation that it needs to apply brakes to a wheel it will, on top of that it is connected to the ecu so it can shut off throttle or reduce it as needed. Its a fully self contained system that only requires those parts and runs off a separate ecu. Since you have a full spare car I would suggest ripping out the wiring harness in tact and stripping all the non essentials off. Thats what I am doing.. I started with the dash and engine harness and. I have the body harness stripped mostly down.

Good luck! This was a primary part of my build. I designed my build to incorperate this as I feel the 914 could benefit from both abs and stability control at this performance level.
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(Cracker @ Feb 24 2017, 06:01 PM) *

Rudy - ABS is for wussies...REAL men lockem up at great speed; REAL drivers do it occasionally too. You do not need braking nannies... poke.gif

T

QUOTE(Curbandgutter @ Feb 24 2017, 08:55 PM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 22 2017, 12:47 PM) *

ABS triggers a chime in the back of the cluster that I disconnected manually. Air bag light is on, but the check engine light doesnt come on as all the sensors not used have been coded out.

I'll be putting some resistors for the air bag light or simply remove the bulb. I plan on using the ABS stuff from the Audi so that light will stay in.


I wonder how hard it would be to use the 996 ABS system in my car. I have the entire system. Huuuuuuum. We need to talk.




stirthepot.gif stirthepot.gif av-943.gif av-943.gif av-943.gif Dang T.......lotta T in that post.
Curbandgutter
Jim I think I may just give the 996 ABS a look. Is this the system that I should be looking at? It is a 2 pin connector.
Andyrew
That 2 pin connector is the ABS pump for the stability control system. Basically it primes the ABS box to allow for the system to hit any of the brakes at any time. Its similar to the Audi pump in design.

The first pic is the ABS box. That takes a multi pin connector, similar to the Audi. (See below)
IPB Image


Your going to have a 10x easier time if you use the Audi stuff as your donor chassis is already wired for it.
jd74914
Interesting-I haven't seen one like the second one before (note that I have almost no 996 knowledge). People call it the pre-pump? Not sure exactly what it does except that it's for PSM.

The one the 951 guys use is out of early Boxsters (and maybe 996s since it does have a 996 P/N) and looks like this:

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Cracker
...and? confused24.gif shades.gif

T

QUOTE(Curbandgutter @ Feb 27 2017, 01:18 PM) *

stirthepot.gif stirthepot.gif av-943.gif av-943.gif av-943.gif Dang T.......lotta T in that post.

jd74914
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 27 2017, 02:14 PM) *

That 2 pin connector is the ABS pump for the stability control system. Basically it primes the ABS box to allow for the system to hit any of the brakes at any time. Its similar to the Audi pump in design.

The first pic is the ABS box. That takes a multi pin connector, similar to the Audi. (See below)

Your going to have a 10x easier time if you use the Audi stuff as your donor chassis is already wired for it.


Andrew beat me!

The thing I worry about using an Audi unit vs. Boxster is that the two must have different vehicle dynamics "models" built into them. They both seem to use essentially the same hardware, but I'm sure Bosch has each programmed for the specific vehicle. I'm not sure about Audi weight distribution, but the fact that it is AWD means that there is definitely a different front axle response model which likely has some corrections for reduced lateral grip while applying power. It might work great though-the engineer in me is a little conservative. laugh.gif
Andyrew
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Feb 27 2017, 11:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 27 2017, 02:14 PM) *

That 2 pin connector is the ABS pump for the stability control system. Basically it primes the ABS box to allow for the system to hit any of the brakes at any time. Its similar to the Audi pump in design.

The first pic is the ABS box. That takes a multi pin connector, similar to the Audi. (See below)

Your going to have a 10x easier time if you use the Audi stuff as your donor chassis is already wired for it.


Andrew beat me!

The thing I worry about using an Audi unit vs. Boxster is that the two must have different vehicle dynamics "models" built into them. They both seem to use essentially the same hardware, but I'm sure Bosch has each programmed for the specific vehicle. I'm not sure about Audi weight distribution, but the fact that it is AWD means that there is definitely a different front axle response model which likely has some corrections for reduced lateral grip while applying power. It might work great though-the engineer in me is a little conservative. laugh.gif



The way I see it, if race guys strip out the vehicle to weigh 1k lbs less than factory the ABS should perform the same. Stability control should perform the same.

I see the system responding to grip loss. Yes there are yaw sensors involved as well as steering angle but that will only tell the system where the car is trying to go and adjust throttle and brake in such a way to counter it.

The biggest thing that I wanted to make sure was correct for my vehicle was that I used the same size ABS teeth count for the rear as was OE for the system, so that if the system tries to read wheel speed and correct it wouldnt be dissimilar to anticipated wheel speed.

Same goes for the front of the vehicle. I run smaller overall tires in the front than the rear by a considerable margin. I would want the teeth count of the front ABS to match that ratio appropriately as the Audi runs the same size front to back.

So long as that is good, I imagine the system should be able to compensate for the weight/power balance differences.


Regarding AWD vs RWD and its limits for throttle imputs at the edge. An AWD based car has more mechanical grip on power ramp and therefore I would imagine that the base of the system would have a tendancy to oversteer on onset and then the system would bring it down when it noticed the rear wheel speed being significantly higher than the front.
Curbandgutter
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Feb 27 2017, 11:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Feb 27 2017, 02:14 PM) *

That 2 pin connector is the ABS pump for the stability control system. Basically it primes the ABS box to allow for the system to hit any of the brakes at any time. Its similar to the Audi pump in design.

The first pic is the ABS box. That takes a multi pin connector, similar to the Audi. (See below)

Your going to have a 10x easier time if you use the Audi stuff as your donor chassis is already wired for it.


Andrew beat me!

The thing I worry about using an Audi unit vs. Boxster is that the two must have different vehicle dynamics "models" built into them. They both seem to use essentially the same hardware, but I'm sure Bosch has each programmed for the specific vehicle. I'm not sure about Audi weight distribution, but the fact that it is AWD means that there is definitely a different front axle response model which likely has some corrections for reduced lateral grip while applying power. It might work great though-the engineer in me is a little conservative. laugh.gif


Jim, yes I was thinking about that as well. I'm not sure if they have a vehicle dynamic model built into the ecu or it's purely a comparison between wheel speeds?

Andrew, I have both systems so I'm not sure which way to go yet.
Andyrew
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jux2hzn05strpsf/...1AWCaVbX_a?dl=0

Some required reading on Audi ESP smile.gif


Also, some wiring info for you all if you wanted to know.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ot2v0w9h84a1ydl/...aaSqeQ5Fma?dl=0
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