Wow Andrew......good stuff!! Decisions decisions. If I go with the Audi steering wheel, then it will have the turning angle unit built in, the g meter is under the seat, wow seems like it may be something to really look into. It seems that the vehicle dynamics is not built in but rather it's a real time sensor system that is continually monitoring an that will aid in the anti lock braking but will also will also brake a single wheel to help the car in over steer and under steer conditions. I'll have to really think this through.

Man you guys and your wiz bang technology. I am anti-tech. I want minimal things that don't break down or have to spend a month to sort out. But that's just me, I'm still trying to conquer posting from my Iphone.

I work for Bosch and developed ESP for 12 years. I would strongly recommend that you not try to adapt ESP to your vehicle. Even if you were able to get a fault free system (which you won't) the control will be uncomfortable at best and likely dangerous. If you want to discuss in more detail, PM me your phone number and we can chat.

Otherwise, awesome project!

So does that mean you can help us develop slip angles and modify the bosh HEX codes?

It is a bit more complicated than you are thinking.

How about this, if you come anywhere close to describing how to accurately determine the speed of the body (in order to calculate wheel slip) while driving uphill with the wheels spinning, I will give you some offline hints on how to get ABS to work on your project.

Edit: The vehicle is AWD with open differentials.

Have fun,
Scott

Wow thank you got your input Amenson. Looks like I may be back to 996 3 channel abs at most. Or just screw it and go without abs. That was my original direction anyway. Thanks again.

Well, this is a theoretical problem right?
ABS sensors on the wheel determine individual wheel speed. Open differentials on an AWD vehicle will have a mechanical torque based slip on the front to rear ratio, Left to right differentials will be open allowing for the wheel with the least amount of grip to spin, So if the right rear has the least amount of grip it will spin, however if the center differential has a 40/60 F/R split it will still send 40% of the power to the front allowing the vehicle to accelerate forward.

To determine body speed the wheel with the lowest wheel speed would be the most accurate in relation to road speed. Calculate the rotations of the wheel to the overall tire diameter can determine overall body speed.

Or did I misinterpret the question?

Adding absolutely nothing helpful to this current set of posts, I have to say:

I am in awe of you guys who "get" all this new-fangled technologlogicalnessism.

Makes what I'm trying to do feel like working with Tinker Toys. OK, maybe an Erector Set.

Really, it's impressive what you're up to. Keep up the great work!

All wheels are spinning so none correctly give vehicle speed. The one spinning slowest may be most accurate, but you don't know if it's correct enough. From my understanding in ABS terms it likely is, ESC its unlikely.

Thinking about it really quickly it would seem that you have to back it out from the measured acceleration, some simplified tire/vehicle dynamics models, and engine outputs. Perhaps it really a iterative shooting procedure since it must happen real-time? Need to give this some more thought on my end...definitely not a trivial calculation. ESC is crazy complicated.

Sorry for the hijack Rudy.

This is not a theoretical problem. In a slip based controller accurate knowledge of the body speed is critical and a good portion of the ECU capacity is used figuring it out. Andrew did well by getting to the slowest wheel as the best indicator of body speed and jd74914 identified the issue that best probably is not good enough for ESP.

Add this to the complexity of all of the other sensors and factors that obscure the reality of what the vehicle is doing or what the driver is requesting and hopefully you will come to the conclusion that it is not a system that can be swapped between vehicles. Years of effort go into adapting the system to each production vehicle.

Once it is adapted, things like programmable drift angles are fun engineering exercises!

Cheers,
Scott

Scott - I'll muddy up Rudy's thread (at least) one more time...I had taken a hard look at Bosch's Motorsports ABS M4 system/kit in the past. Most people whine about the cost - anything at the pointy end of development comes at a high price. What are you thoughts regarding programming/calibrating such a system to a 914 on slicks? The appealing upside to me was the adjustable slip that can be selected based upon a number of conditions and driver preferences. Until someone else surfaces with video of locking up the front brakes on a 914 at 165 mph (not something to be proud of, just experience) - I believe I am the only one with direct experience. I see the value of such a system near the limit - just not for a hot rod, doing hot rod things.

Tony

Tony
I really appreciate your consistency and dedication you have to referring to your 914 as a "hot rod"....whatever makes your insurance company happy I guess.

As for the Motorsport ABS system. I have no direct experience with it but have friends that do and happened to be stuck on an airplane with one the other week and briefly discussed some issues they found at Daytona with the NSX GT3 project they were applying the system to. From my understanding the system has basic vehicle parameters that are setup and then the base calibrations are automatically set. There are several settings that can be selected from a dial switch that are fixed and should work for most drivers. There are one or two settings that can be calibrated, probably at a huge cost. The tables might be open...I can ask if you get serious.

Contrary popular belief, very few drivers if any, can consistently out brake a car with modern ABS. People will probably make fun of you until you blow by them in the braking zone. Go for it!

Scott

Scott - I was referring to Rudy's car...LOL! You are correct, however, I mainly just to stick that out there to poke at Bob Saville (who happens to have a legitimate 914 race car!).

I only have a hot rod.

Thank you for your insight regarding the M4...I cannot offer an argument against it and it would make driving at the limit a whole lot easier - to mention the added confidence it would provide! The faster one drives, using technology to ease the drivers workload becomes more and more critical. No different than the go-fast gizmo's on my prototype buggy...

T

So after this round of A....BS talk it looks like the Audi ESP is out of the picture. I'll still take a hard look at the ABS of off a boxster.

Hey. I didn't start this stuff...I helped put a stop to it!

T

Well motor is out of the Audi. It was amazing how these things are packaged. True nightmare to work on in the Audi but won't be a problem in the 914. Heck I'll be able to walk into the engine compartment. Great motor, but the way it is shoved into the Audi, it sucks big time. You forget how short these Audi V6's are. It measures about 18 inches long. So it's about 6" shorter than an LS1 or Coyote. Makes sense since its 2 cylinders short.

I see... So in my build, short is bad but in yours, it's good.

Glad to hear it's coming together for you, Rudy!

^^^ Well I separated the Audi motor from the triptronic and weighed it with , alternator, power steering pump, air conditioner, Ac drier, full of oil, headers, turbo , electric harness and torque converter. It weighed......a little shy of 440 lbs. I wonder how much a wet and fully dressed LS motor weights. I need to compare apples to apples though. Therefore the LS motor must have flywheel, clutch, exhaust headers, all peripherals, electronics, fuel injection, and intake system. Has anyone weighed this or have good information on this??

So today's project was to get a drill fixture made so Rudy can have more bolts to hold the engine and trans together. I took the adapter plate and put it on my CMM to measure hole locations. Made the drill fixture with two locating pins in the alignment holes and four long drill bushings for the lower four holes that line up on the engine along with two hold down bolt holes. The Cayman S 6 speed has solid bosses at the correct location but Porsche does not drill them since the Cayman motor does not need them. Its nice that they are there though. Now we can use all of the bolt holes in the engine. I think it will be best to drill and tap the trans and then use short studs as needed. One of the holes is bolt that holds the starter in place and sliding it on a stud will help.

440 is spot on for the 2.7

By comparison the 1.8 is 282 with all the accessories. Mine doesnt have the power steering pump, ac compressor, some emissions bits, and a bunch of bracketry so knock off 30lbs and my engine is right around 250.

One of the big reasons I went this route vs the V6 motor. (Granted my cast aluminum intercooler is about 30lbs, my turbo is about 10, and my engine cradle is another 10...)

An aluminum LS1 is about 430

The flywheel, clutch, PP and adapter plate for the LS to G86/87 variants is substantial, heavy (and pretty). I didn't weigh it but would guess that it alone weighs about 55 lbs. Chris could weight his since his is still accessible. My engine only has an alternator and dry sump pump and weighs 425 lbs. A baseline comparison for power goals to engine weight - 586 hp and 553 torque - at the crank. Idles smooth, and can drive at idle with no throttle input. Very docile.

T

Click to view attachment

Thanks T. that LS7 is legendary. The little V6 can't compete with that monster. Chris if you get a chance can you weigh your LS3 fully dressed. Please include headers and clutch with adapter plate if possible. I've checked other sites and they say that GM's official fully dressed weight is 497 lbs but it doesn't include clutch and adapter kit or headers. Therefore, if I read T right then, I suspect that a fully dressed LS motor will weigh around 497 + 50(clutch and adapter) + 20 (headers).= 567 lbs. Does that sound about right?

I went down South to Chip's house and he tapped in four additional studs to the Cayman transmission. You can see them in the first picture (Chip's motor and trans). He machined up a trick jig and was able to set it up and tap the trans in about five minutes. For those of you that may want to do this, these studs are not mandatory but we like our belts and suspenders around here.

Great to see these numbers posted, too bad the 1.8 or the V6 models available with aluminum blocks. I think the Type IV is right at 300 pounds complete?

So my wife meets Rudy when he was here and when he leaves she asks "did you guys work on the Paudi" as in Pow-Dee. She thinks she's pretty funny

That should be your license plate

Nice fixture, great to see you using the tapping block!

OK this weekend I mated the Cayman Trans with the Audi motor. I started removing all of the excess piping and tubing that are unnecessary . It really started to clean that rats nest of tubing up quite a bit. I'll post pictures when done. Hoping to place motor in this weekend and then make the motor mounts. Chip will then start mocking up for the custom headers. I'd like to have the motor completely bolted up this month since I will not be able to work on the work for the first two weeks of April.

My remaining schedule should look like this:

April: Complete the new floor pan and button up all of the access holes.
May: Complete radiators with AC system.
June: Complete brakes, and fuel system.
July: Complete electrical system and start the car.
August: Complete body with steel gt flares
September: Complete custom body work
October: Paint
November: Interior.

We will see how it pans out but this is the schedule until reality hits hard.

That is one ugly @ss motor with all those hoses, wires and such, should look decent cleaned up!

I'll post a before and after picture. I'm removing the activated charcoal, the pcv and the secondary air pump. Ill build a puke tank for the PCV. Andrew whats been your experience on this?

SAI is emissions only and can be removed no issues.

Removing the charcoal/pcv isnt an issue you just have to have a place for the air to go, Puke tank works well, I have mine puking to atmosphere and it makes quite a mess. 034 motorsports makes a 1" billet adapter to the charcoal tank so you can route your puke system from there.


Another thing you have (2.7 vs 1.8) that I dont, is under the intake manifold you have a small bosch water pump with hoses that pumps water through the turbos / engine after engine shut off. Its common to remove that system as the hoses crack or the pumps leak.
Now my water pump ECU does something similar to that, but Im not sure if you want to retain that feature. Its something the ECU controls if the oil temp gets to a certain point.



I would start discussing all this with your tuner now. What do they need, What can you remove. Thats what I did, and they guided me to where I was.

Ask them about fueling, injectors, pressure regulator, Map sensor, MAF sensor, Boost control. Those are all things that need a serious discussion before parts bought.

Rudy, hábla me cuando empiezas el Aire Condicionado. Tengo la herramienta prensado de manguera barrera. Kent

Damn Kent that was actually pretty good Spanish. I was busting up imagining you saying that, with that crazy side grin. Thank you, I will take you up on that.

And now for the non Spanish speakers, he said,

"Rudy I like to wear leopard leotards and high heels as I drive my 914" verbatim I swear

Andrew thanks for your response. I'm interested in how your electric pump also doubles as a secondary pump for when the engine shuts off. I'm actually still thinking of using the Audi belt driven pump for primary and the Bosch pump as it was meant to be in its original state.

My electric pump has its own controller that when the key is off and the engine is hot will run the pump and fans for a couple minutes. I can program the temp at which the system trys to stay at from 140-205deg.

What can I say. It's not my first language. I meant to say Black not Leopard.

Rudy can you give me the phone#of the fellow in menefee that you mentioned who knows fuel injection systems and has a shop thanks Bernie

Bernie, he is no longer in California. He move to Lake Havasu. His name is Ben Strader and he owns a company called EFI university. https://www.efi101.com/ Take his classes and learn how to fix it yourself. He is an incredible instructor and explains everything in a very logical and progressive manner. It may be immensely fun for you.

Well I we were able to place the motor to check for clearance and glad to say that it was a success. I'll have to adjust one tube to clear an oil filter but everything else fit great. Next step is to order some Z06 motor mounts and tie the motor in place.

I know I'm not the first to say this, but:

THAT... is a lot of wires!

Here's to success as you get to hookin' up all that!

And Triple Super Bonus Points for being the only 914 (I've ever seen) where the motor/trans goes in from the top!

Whats crazier is that that white taped up lump I am going to say is the rest of the engine harness wiring

The biggest issue facing conversion owners is the wiring goes the wrong way, requiring us to extend the factory wiring or cut and rewire most of the engine components.


It not THAT big of a deal because most of the engine bay stuff gets resistors on it and is not used. My local tuner is building wire tuck wire harnesses for the 1.8's, I might pick one up and rewire my engine bay because I have a big loop of wires that are just unnecessary.

I can machine and fabricate any thing but when it comes to wiring about all I know is red wire + black wire -. When I look at the bundle of harness I am intimidated for sure. Rudy seems to have a grasp on it and I ran across an Audi mechanic that loves the 2.7 and will help out as needed. Keeping fingers crossed.

Probably one of the most critical areas of emphasis in race cars are the electronics. Nothing matters much about a build if it is plagued by electrical gremlins (which can lead to: failures, fires, blah, blah, blah). The difference between the quality of electrical components and emphasis on such is often under-valued...or misunderstood. In a complex car like Rudy's...I believe nothing should get more attention than the electrical system, nothing. Good luck Rudy...

Tony

Tony I agree 100% the devil is going to be in the wiring with all of the sensors and actuators. Also need to make sure that there are no boost leaks. I plan on taking all the time necessary to get the wiring done right. Will lay out the entire system on a huge table and check every wire and connection. I have a close friend who is an electrical engineer and has written multiple university textbooks. Guy can make his own chips.....as in designing the circuit and actually building the chip in his garage. I think with him and the knowledgeable folks in this board I'm going to be all right.

Andrew yes that big lump is the wiring harness. I wrapped it in cellophane. I'll sure be needing your's and Mike Bellis' input when I get into it.

By the way, I'm checking out for a while on vacation.

TTYL

Black wire is not ground in german cars Solid brown is.

Hell, I hardly ever get passed the red/black on the battery but that does explain why most everything I try to wire smokes.

Edit:
Now I am curious since I have never had a 914 that did not start as a gutted shell with out any wiring at all is the battery ground brown as well?

Well look what came in the mail today!

Whooo, Snailbrackets

Wow Rudy! That's a lot of work.
Have to agree about wiring issues. I witnessed Dave
(914dave) dealing with his harness and the 3.2. So many roadblocks with power not
going where it's supposed to.
All sorted though.

Rudy, looking fantastic. Nice progress. Carry on...
Cheers, Dion

Those look like Chinese headers. Please tell me there not


You have a number of solid options, most go OEM but here is a list in no order..

1. OEM
2. Ported OEM
3. AWE $3k headers.
4. $1750 Wagner headers
5. $900 Custom built like Silly Rabbit Motorsports, Built from thick stock material.

Those OBX/XS/$150special headers crack. They simply cant stand the heat that the turbos produce, especially with the boost turned up.

AWE
https://www.3zero3motorsports.com/store/a-w...haust-manifolds

Wagner
http://www.andysautosport.com/products/wag..._150001009.html

My money would go with silly rabbit motorsports I've got a link to their flow charts as well below.
http://sillyrabbitmotorsport.com/b5-s4-exh...haust-manifolds
http://www.myaudis4.com/srm-exhaust-manifold-flow-test/



Unrelated Note on my setup I am running an APR Iconel manifold for a 1.8T, if there is one thing in my engine build that will never break, its that manifold.