I am trying to decide on whether to upgrade the torsion bars, say 22 or 23 or go with coil overs in the front with not sure what rate springs. Any comments on either?

Do a search in the garage. I had a thread about the install on mine. I like them.

-- brett

If you will explain where you are trying to go with this car build, that would help considerably.

Personally, I started out about 14 years with a stock 74 914 and ended up with a 914AXer on a par with any 914AXer in the country.....hitting most of the points in between. It took me 3-4 years to figure out where I was going. Once I reached that point the nilly-willy mods ceased and the wastage of TM&E was contained.
The question posed by this thread tells me that regardless of final product, you're talking "wastage".

Here's a pic of my car from about 10 years back......a street legal AXer that was a TTOD threat (with a good driver.....not me) at local AXs.. Had I quit there my retirement finances would be more secure.

JP

You are absolutely correct, what I am doing with this car at nearly 69 years old is probably a big waste of time and money to most folks, but it sure is fun. I have no intention of becoming a top AXer or anything else relative to driving at this point. I am just having a shit load of fun at Marina and Santa Maria aiports. At the AX last Saturday, my time was 3rd in class, .348 of a second from 1st. With that said, I am looking to find .347 of a second, which will put a bigger smile on my face. So, here is what I have:

Stock torsion bars (I assume)
19mm Tarrett front sway bar, rear stock sway bar off.
Rebuilt calibers, R4-S pads, new rotors, new Bilstien strut inserts and sport shocks.
I have coil overs for the rear with 225 lb springs on the way.
I am running 205 50 15 A6s on 5.5 wheels, but my 7s should be here today.
The engine is a 2270 by McMark and is running very strong.
Rear camber is about 1mm, which is with all the plates removed. Toe-in about 1 mm measured with a string setup
Front toe in about 1.5mm measured the same way. I haven't touched the camber.

I do want to keep this car fairly street driveable, but focused more on AXes, and not spending all my retirement money. Hope that gives you the story of what I am trying to achieve. Just trying to have fun for as long as it puts a grin on my face.

I'll chime in here, as a guy who has had a streetable car that also can do okay
for autocross. I don't worry about buying $5000 shocks or using lasers to set
the car up. IMO unless you are an awesome driver and trailering the car
everywhere, you won't want to do the serious things that would need to be done.

Here's what I have: (mostly basic stuff)
Front:
21mm torsion bar
small (19mm?) sway bar set very loose
koni single-adjustable shocks
camber plates that allow 2deg camber without cutting chassis
Rear:
180lb springs
no sway bar
Bilstein non-adj sport shocks with slots for adjusting perch height
removed all shims giving 2deg neg camber
Wheels/Tires:
Fuchs-center 3-pc 7.5x16", offset ~35mm
Kumho V710 215/40/16

I think I tried for 0 toe on both front and rear.
The car is a -6 so the weight distribution is a little different than yours.
I don't see why you would bother with front coil-overs. Try to get more
camber (but you will wear out the street tires sooner on the inside edge).
Set the ride height a little lower than stock, get the bump steer rack spacers
(cheap), and get scales and set up the corner weights if you can. Make
sure your shift-linkage is as good as it can be.

I would buy some 21mm torsion bars and some front camber plates. Replace all the bushings with something stiffer. For the alignment I would run as much camber possible in the front. You'll probably end up with negative 2-2.5 degrees. On the back I would try for negative 2 degrees camber. Front toe I would set straight ahead, maybe a little toe out depending on how tollerant you are of a twitchy car on the street, and on the rear just a little bit of toe in. I'd leave it at that and have fun.

Every car is different. What may work on one car may not be the same as on another.

I would suggest the amount of effort & expense on suspension mods should be consistent with the amount of money you're willing to spend on tires.
If you don't buy Hoosiers or other top level tires to be competetive then there's no point in front coilovers.
Take care of the inexpensive things, especially time behind the wheel, first.

perfectly said!

Chris, the reason I want to tweak the suspension, is because I am running Hoosiers. You are, however, absolutely correct about the seat time. The thing is, I can't do quality seat time while I am waiting for the next event.

So then, with that said, the price of front coilovers is about the same as a 21mm torsion bar. In your opinion, which way should I go. I thought with the coil overs, I would have more adjustments or is there a way to adjust the torsion bars, other than the obvious adjuster nuts?

the coil overs and torsion bars are both adjustable for height

the torsion bars carry more of their weight on the chassis and less on the wheel, so in that sense the torsion bars are superior in the sprung/unsprung weight perspective

the coil overs allow for quicker spring changes, and more variety of spring rates. This is the manner they are superior


so if you intend to change spring rates for each and every track you go to then the coil overs can be be the way to go. You will still need to realign and recorner balance every event also.

they don't do anything else magical
they don't give you any magical adjustments
they aren't legal in MANY clubs and classes, so read the rules for your class.
they aren't legal in any vintage clubs I know of.


brant

Ah, PCA Zone 7 and it's unique rules.
That "points" system ......at least at GGR & LPR, is odd to say the least.
There are "points" for about every mod and, as such, the class you're in today might well not be after you make some mods.

As pictured my car, IIRC, had stock T-bars, a 19mm anti roll bar (full soft) and 140 lb non progressive rear springs. 7 X 15 wheels with 205 fronts & 225 rears....Victorracer Kumos....hay, it was 10 years ago Std Bilsteins at both ends.
About -2 camber at both ends with 0 toe F & R......it did have a good running home built 2.7L six.

One hole in them weird GGR rules is weight.....unless they've changed. That is where I would spend money. Get the handling set to what makes you comfortable & go for a weight reduction.

When I put 21mm Tbars on it took me a lot of thrashing around to get the suspension balanced....this was a few years later. I ended up with 275 lb rear springs and a 22mm(effective) AR bar. It still had that spring combo when I sold it a couple years ago, weighed 1725 lbs. and had big black beanies on both ends......still lifted the inside front tho. A pic of my trip to GGR at Marina. I had to go there to convince them that GGR was not the center of the AX world.

D'oh, thats in your other thread title isn't it.

Price of components doesn't tell the whole story though.
The torsion bars will install and adjust to baseline quickly.
The coilovers are a bit of a project. They also might compromise your wheel/tire setup and require added spacers since they effectively increase the strut diameter.
The only way to gain camber adjustability is to install camber boxes or offset ball joints or 935 a-arms.
At least with the torsion bars you can get more negative camber by simply opening up the holes in the strut tower until the strut hits the inside of the wheel well.
As Brant said, the coilover setup only improves adjustability of spring rate.

Another thing, major changes on the car between events when you're still gaining experience will put you back to square one as far as how to drive the car.
I've found it better to adjust driving style to suit the car until you know exactly what will make the car quicker/easier to drive.
Then make big changes and get used to them before another round of changes.

IMO, 914s generally suffer from lack of rear grip and stiffening the sh!t out of the front is the only way to balance the handling.
That's why you end up lifting a front tire in hard cornering.
Its better to do everything possible to improve the rear suspension/grip before tackling the front end.

Quote: Racer Chris

"I've found it better to adjust driving style to suit the car until you know exactly what will make the car quicker/easier to drive.
Then make big changes and get used to them before another round of changes".


I agree more cow bell on driving style change. A lot of changes at one time doesnt tell you what individual adjustment or equipment change returned the highest gain. Then again sometimes you get lucky and it all comes together. Two rear wheels on the ground, one up front is usually fast. The other way around is not. Even simple changes such as small toe adjustments make big differences in times. Fast in, fast out.

I have Fox remote resevior coil overs around with ERP 935 front control arms on the race car (500/450 lb springs front/rear), but just stock arms with 22 mm torsion bars and VERY OLD Bilstein non adjustable on the street/ax car - 180 (??) lb rear springs.

If I could put the ERP and coil overs on the street/ax car I would (with lighter springs, mainly because if the light steering feel it gave us.

Having said that, I can get overall FTD or very close to it on most autocrosses we run here. I will probably just go with adjustable Koni's when I get a chance...

If I remember right, it cost ya a buck. (wink)