Can anyone give me a good account of what would happen if I removed the rear sway bar in an AutoX setting? I'm currently running stock F&R sways, stock torsion bars, bilsteins all around and I believe 180# springs.

I know the best way to find out is to try it, but I get out to so few AutoXs, I don't want to waste one of my outings with a setting that ruins the day. Looking for your experiences with and without

Thanks!

You didn't tell us why you would want to remove it. If I had to guess you probably have quite a bit of oversteer with your current setup. I would remove it. Not many guys run them anyway. If the car still oversteers then I would look at going up in torsion bar and front swaybar size.

Woody, thanks for the quick response. That was exactly the reason that I wanted to remove it, I have read that it reduces oversteer. I purchased the car set up the way it is, so I don't know what it would be like without it.

Have you tried running with and without to notice a difference?

is it possible to un-couple the rear bar by simply removing one of the links?

me thinks this would be a quick an easy way to test.

yes

a piece of duct tape to keep the link from dangling and 20 seconds is all it takes to make a test run.

I don't run a rear bar. I run a 19mm front which is getting swapped for a 22mm. I run 21mm torsion bars and 250# rear springs. I've never had a need for a rear bar.

Steve,
A major factor in determining if a rear sway bar is suitable in a 914 used for autocross is ncreased ET caused by traction loss on corner exit.
In other words, if you can't accelerate out of a corner because the inside rear wheel spins easily, you should not be using a rear anti-sway bar.
You may even want to change to a stiffer front bar.
On a race track a rear bar makes a little more sense. The car is actually better balanced with both front and rear bars at higher speeds.
That is until you have enough power to overcome rear traction coming out of a corner,and spin a rear tire.
Losing traction has two negative effects: loss of acceleration and excess oversteer.
Loose is fast - as long as you can control it.

I never ran one.
As Chris says lifting the inside rear is a problem with one....I have driven 914s with the rear bar and can verify that.

When I popped for an LSD, which many folks believe makes a rear bar workable, I went for a torque biasing type .....that will also spin the inside rear if that tire comes off the ground totaly.......which would seem counter productive , eh?
The problem is that the clutch type LSDs suck at AX......unless you like lotso understeer.
The simple solution with a TB diff is to have stiff enough springs in back to keep the inside rear planted.....even when you add a hundred + HP or so to your ride.

There are a set of un-intended consequences of setting up any car for AX nilly-willy and the 914 is no exception. You wanna go fast, you gotta learn the rules. A gud plan is to save your self some money and not try it in a knowledge vaccume.

Guys, thank you very much for all the information. This is some great stuff. I think I'll just give it a go at the next AutoX without it and see what happens. I definitely have been a bit tail happy and with so many people saying that they run without it in an AutoX setting, I'll give it a shot.

When I first got my car it had a rear bar installed. I remember Rich Bontempi saying to disconnect it at my first autox which I did. Later took it off.

And JP's advice about a TB differential for autox is priceless.

Well.....not quite pricless if'n ya buy one, eh?

I'm a CSOB but once in a while I stepped out of that mold.

Hi guys - I'm in the same situation and so will not hijack this thred - BUT - If I have a rear anti sway bar, what am I likely to see / feel? how will I know that the rear bar is slowing down my skills when I'm on the course?

thx

td

Two things: the car may spin too easily; acceleration out of corners may result in wheel spin even with a low power engine.

I run a rear swaybar and I have no problems with oversteer. But.... I have Elephant Bushings throughout, 200# springs, Koni adjustable shocks, stock torsion bars with a big adjustable front swaybar. I also have a torque biasing differential. My neighbor who is a former shifter kart world champ says my 914 may be the best handling car with a license plate he has ever driven. My car tends to understeer with this set up so since removing the rear bar, or softening the rear = relatively stiffening the front, in theory, it would make the understeering worse.

This wasn't magic. I got expert advice from Ron Kain and Brad Roberts. I got it aligned and corner-balanced. I have a lot of seat time. Only problem is I'm getting old and slow...

Don't even talk about being old and slow, you're not even close yet.

Haven't run a rear bar since starting to drive competition events; however, a huge problem was always understeering. Corrected it by dialing in a softer front end, i.e., Smart Racing set up on softest position, also using the smallest bar, adding a TBD and increasing the spring rates. On a 180 degree turn the car will stick as long as I don't try to overcome elementary rules of physics.

Some of the best autox's I've run were with the SCCA folks up in Reno at Stead. You run with those guys Rob?

Yup Randal... I run with them. Even the women are faster than me here! Very humbling. But on the bright side, they like LOVE my car...
In fact that reminds me. My SCCA renewal is sitting on my desk.

I bought my car from a buddy of mine's good friend who lived down by Carson City. My buddy, Pat Costin and I went to a PCA dinner in Reno and he introduced me to THE FRIEND who later in the conversation mentioned he had a 914 (mostly race car) for sale. That was all it took.

Costin's the guy who own(ed) the old but immaculate Mitchell 911. I see it over at Reno Rennsport a lot.

Not this weekend, but the next there is a two day AX at Stead. Drag 222 over the hill. I have a spare bedroom... We can show 'em what 914's can do!

Reno Rennsport, is that Matt Lowrance's outfit?

As to Reno next weekend, I'm leaving today for Medford for the Spring Enduro this weekend. We'll see how much gas money I have left, but sure is tempting. Love Stead.

That orange car is fabulous. Pat came down to Santa Rosa for one of their events and I had a ride with him. At the end of the straight he was doing, well guess I shouldn't say, but not much shy of a ton.

Matt and his partner, Brian Lowder. I've not met Matt but I count Brian as a friend and he is one of Ms. Yopu's clients.

Right after the Stead event, my 914 will go to the body shop for flare paint...

Matt built the original 4 in my car and also the 2.7 engine we put in the Beast. He knows what he's doing and can build you whatever you want. He is also an expert at setting up suspensions, primarily track cars, but autox as well. He put together a 911 for a guy (Jim Hayes) up in Reno, with one of his hot engines, and it simply got in front of everyone.

Get some pictures of your car on here with those flares done Rob.

Will do Randal. I plan on autocrossing it next weekend and then off to the body shop for paint then a Reno Fernley Track Day with SCCA (PDX) in early May... One of these events I will have a Reno news-chick on board with a crew filming for a local station's morning show...

Oooh, photobombing opportunity! Just tell me when!

You missed it last time. She came to my work and filmed. We were on TV just a few weeks back...

I don't watch TV, but I'll borrow WOody's video camera for the next shoot.

I don't really watch TV either... Though I do watch movies on DVD and such. You should have seen the 'moment' when she introduced herself and realized I didn't have a clue who she was... Kind of funny. Now we're Facebook friends...

She has her own camera man - Ray. He was with her when she came and flew with us...

I know this thread is mainly autox-focused, but FWIW I found my car to be nearly undrivable on the track without a rear bar. That said, it is very stiff and has custom-valved shocks, full welded cage, pretty high-powered -6, an LSD, and Hoosier R6's. I'm using a large SRP front bar and a stock rear.

One point being that other car setup details, specific application/venue and personal driving style are all important factors.

Normally disconnecting the rear bar for autocross would seem counterintuitive to me, assuming the car has been set up properly. If the bars aren't matched to the rest of the suspension, though, it could be a problem for sure. It's common to disconnect the rear sway on a stiffly sprung car (like 250 lb/inch rear sprungs). Disconnecting the rear sway is easy to do as suggested, to test it out and see how you like it.

Scott

I run a rear bar. My car is set up to have it. I do OK out there. I'll try it without the rear bar for a few runs this weekend and let ya know what happens. popping the link off is easy enough. Just make sure ya bring large enough a tool to pop it back on. If the bushings are any good ya ain't doing it with your hands alone.

A rear bar is really only a problem if:

- You have enough HP to spin the wheels coming out of a corner
- You don't have a limited slip of sorts


The problem is that a rear bar will tend to lift the inside wheel off the ground in tight corners.
Without a limited slip, you will get lots of tire spin and little in terms of propelling you forward.

Disconnecting the rear bar can help by allowing more body roll which helps keeping the inside wheel on the ground.

Again, the more HP you have to more apparent the problem becomes.


Here are two pictures of my car illustrating the effect. This was with the rear bar connected. As you can see, there was plenty of smoke left in my tires just waiting to be released.

Looks cool, but fast it is not ...

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

31mm front bar here with 200# rear springs and rear bar always connected.
Stock front torsion bars.

Never adjusted.

Perfect balance.


KT

Yea, I have the TBD

We don't have a rear SB on either car. Long ago we had one on Papa Smurf, but then took it off and got faster. Tried to put it on Huey and it made it harder to drive. Put it BACK on Papa when I got LSD, took it off after one session on the track.

So...no rear swaybar on either the autocross with stock 3.2 engine, 225/16 A6's (no LSD or TBD), or the full track race car with 350 hp 3.2 engine with 12"x16" rear wheels & LSD.