I'm getting ready to rebuild my 2.0 and am considering going to either 2056, or maybe even up to 2270. What are the downsides or problems associated with going 2270, if any?

More work, worse rod ratio than a 2056.
Higher chance of ring wear.

It really depends what you are looking for, but a 2056 is a nice motor, refreshed compression and new head work, it will feel a lot more powerful than what you have now.

Rich

Rod ratio is no worse if the engine is designed correctly at 2270cc. Adding stroke= adding rod length to maintain the proper rod ratio.

If you don't ave 2K+ for heads then stay 2056, because a 2270 with less than adequate head work won't make any real power. Bigger isn't better and smarter beats bigger every time.

Jake,
Isn't heat an issue with the 2270, as well? And ... I'd need a modified camshaft with the 2270 also, yes? What about an external oil cooler, wouldn't that be a good idea if I were to go 2270?
At this point, I'm leaning toward 2056.

Why would there be a higher chance of ring wear? Is heat an issue here?

Another issue, in addition to the questions I have about reliability, longevity, heat, the possible need for an oil cooler, modifying the camshaft, etc. is about EFI. I'm currently running EFI. If I go with a 2056, I believe I can stick with the EFI, but I'll have to go with carbs if I increase to 2270, correct?

From my experience and having stuffed one engine already, if you go 2270 the standard FI won't get enough fuel through. Carbs would be the answer. I would go 2056 if I were you. It seems a nice size engine for these cars

FWIW -- I went through this decision process last year and decided on 2056. There were lots of reasons for this, but the main reason was that a 2270 requires some case clearancing, which I didn't feel comfortable doing as a first-time engine builder.

Also, I'm no expert but I think the consensus is that you're right -- you're going to need a new induction system for the 2270. So, add at least $2k for that if you go that route.

Djet can handle more displacement, just not more stroke.
Up to 2.4 liter as far as I know.

BUT
I would suggest if heat is another one of your concerns, stick with the 2056.

Bigger displacement of much more than that may require external oil cooling and if you stroke it, it will require a new induction system.

Carbs run maybe 1k all in.
EFI could be 2k all in, and I have not seen a decent bolt on application for these motors, so you will be doing custom tuning, and custom wiring etc.


Rich

Thanks, Rich. I must be a little slow, can you clarify something for me? You're saying that the D-jet can handle it, but will need custom tuning, wiring, etc. to the tune of an additional 2K, right?

And the 2056, doesn't require major modifications to the EFI?

If I may chime in... I replaced my defunct 2.0 with a 2056 which now uses Ljet. It's a nice combination, and has plenty more cajones than the previous engine. I can stay out of trouble with it....


Although I been dreaming bout a Suby lately.

Djet can go up to 2.4 liter with the 71mm stroke (stock) crank.
That is 103mm pistons.
It cannot deal with a longer stroke.

for the 2270, that is a stroker motor with 96mm pistons and a 78mm crank (stock is 71mm)
That motor (the one you are asking about) requires a custom EFI system with new wiring etc...in the 2k range and there is no off the shelf system available, so you need to know what you are doing, or hire someone who does.

2056 is your best bet.

both the 2270 and the 2.4 liter stock stroke require external oil coolers.
Both motors are tuned and require more maintenance than a 2056 will ever require.

One thing to think about.
McMark (an admin here) has a shop names Original Customs and he will build a 2056 for you that is reliable.

rich

rich

Just to clarify, what EFI system are you currently running?

I'm running the stock EFI system.

Thanks, Rich, I get it now.

And yeah, I've had a good impression of McMark already; I installed his modified Speedo unit in the back of my tranny to stop an annoying leak.

Its been over a decade since we had any thermal control issues.

Pretty much the 2270 is the only engine combination that we work with now, we won't even build a single 2056 this entire year since the schedule already stretches into 2014 I know this..

Again, if you don't have the required coin for proper heads, then stick with the 2056, because you'll just be spinning your wheels.

Smarter beats larger every single time.

Thanks, Jake. So, you don't use an external oil cooler in your 2270's?

Totally dependent upon application and climate

Rich, just a curiosity, why can't the Djet system deal with a longer stroke?

If the capacity of the engine is the same why would it matter whether it was because of a larger diameter or a longer stroke, the FI is most concerned with the flow of air into the engine? I would expect the flow rate of air into the cylinder to be essentially the same at a given RPM if everything else was identical.

You can see from the graph that the change in volume (flow) into cylinders follows the same basic path. (the 103 mm x 71 yields a larger displacement than 96 mm x 78.4 but even if it's changed to 101 mm it still follows approximately the same curve) You can see how the rod length affects the curve by essentially flattening it as length increases.

Again I have no idea, but this surprised me.

Andy

Click to view attachment

Given those two factors, I should be good w/o one, since I live in western Canada and this is strictly for street use. Again, thanks for the advice.

Dunno, but btdt with both, one can be tuned, one can't
It's measuring manifold pressure, not air flow on diet.
I tune them on the road with a/f gauge, and seat time, up and down the roads while tuning.
A lot less precise than all the data collecting, but it work as well as it always has, and the motors run great.

Not looking for the ultimate hp , just a decent motor that does not require 2k worth if fuel injection, or a homemade mega squirt setup....

I have heard that ljet can do more, and air flow is used on the 944 and 911 with less of the issues that manifold pressure introduces to the whole scene.

I heard loads of myths when it came to what diet could do, and I , like you, could not understand why it would not go bigger.
So, I did it, more than once.
It's fun to try for me, and I am now breaking in my motor on carbs before I tune the djet for it...

I have built two other ones and tuned them, I learned a lot about wht works on these...and my motor I tried a different cam to see if I can get around another djet issue with overlap and flutter in the manifold...
Honest I don't think this motor will be able to run djet, but I am going to try anyways...

Rich

Adding all that displacement when keeping the stock intake characteristics is just one huge compromise no matter how you are fueling it. I found long ago that the stock intake system is done at 2.1 liters.

Yes, anything will work, but whats efficient is another story.

I recall some testing that showed the intake runners and throttle body would support up to 2.4 liters.
It was quite a while ago when I looked really hard at this, but one of our resident science guys did some calculations and the intake system will support the airflow.
Maybe someone could work on those numbers again that can remember thermdynamics..


The djet may be the issue that you experienced, but I believe the physical intake system can handle the airflow.

I remember you tried and found the system to be to weak for your goals and what you want to build.

For me, the goal was different. how big for how little money was the objective...I believe I have achieved it, now I am curious to see what I can trick Djet into doing...
I have read to many stories about Megasquirt and how it does not seem to work right...or its finicky, or some other reason it cannot be tuned...
I figured, why not take the Djet system to the next level.
Heck, its the preffered method for alchohol based drag cars...so maniold pressure can and does deal with large aggresive camshafts, and lots of overlap....but it may just be a matter of some technology to smooth out the curve properly.

I have found a few manifold pressure sensors, but not like the one we use, something more modern.
Just a napkin idea that another buddy and I came up with on how to replace the MPS with a more modern setup, and have the ability to tune it for a larger motor...

I know your motors put out the maximum...
a 2.4 pushing 150hp, without getting to hot, is a fun car.
Not looking to break the bank, do external cooling, nor get near 200hp.
Looking for a fun car that can be streetable, fun at an autox, and a bit unique.

Heck, if I did not like tinkering, I would sell the car.


Rich

Of course you were.

Not everyone needs to follow you jake, we all have different goal and your way is not the only way.
Fun to have you back, but don't start bullying as soon as you show up.

Rich

To the OP, a 2056 or 2275 each have their virtues and possibilities, mostly depending on what fuel system and head/cam combo you plan on running. I went with a 2056 only because it was my first type 4 and it 'seemed' more straight forward. Maybe in the future if time and money allows, I will look into a 2275.

That said, I will share what I did on my 2056. I added counterbalance weights to the stock 71 mm crank. Used H-beam rods (5.375 length if I recall correctly) and the rotating portion of the bottom end was spun balanced as an assembly, with the pressure plate installed. Reciprocating parts were matched for weight and the rods end to end balanced. All galley plugs were pulled, galleys cleaned then tapped for tapered plugs.

The heads is where most of my work was done, I used 2.0 heads and went with bigger valves, 44 mm intake and 38 mm exhaust (stock 2.0 is 42 and 36mm). I enlarged the intake ports to just shy of 37 mm and smoothed them from the back of the intake valve, through the isolator block and through the intake manifold. The cam I chose was a Web #270 with .473" lift and I think .288" duration, on a 108° lobe center. Used swivel adjusters, 44 mm webers and 8.4:1 compression among other mods. I hope to go with ITB EFI in this engine in the future too.

So whatever engine size you decide, I think a well thought out and efficient motor is more important than displacement alone. And if you are going with stock injection, I would say stick with a 2056cc or even stock 1971cc. Then just focus on the heads (valves), cam and compression for the 'mod' portion.

Good Luck on the project!

I don't agree with increasing engine displacement by 20% and expecting the stock intake to feed the engine optimally, so I am a bully?

Classic.

Oh well, I've been called worse, and they were probably right.

Outta here, I'll try again in about a year.

Rich
As you know from my experience -- MS isn't plug and play, but it's the most cost effective way to squeeze out all the power from our engines IMO, simply because it can adapt to various configurations and be tuned....especially if you control fuel and spark.

Now of course I am no expert, but once it was running (with help from you, Chris, and Mark), it was running better than my tired old D Jet ever did.

/hijack over

Hmmm. Interesting as ever here.

I believe the OP is talking about Volume and Jake is trying to address VE.

The OP spreadsheet does not address VE which has a lot to do with the hard map VE table on the D-jet board. It is one thing to due a volumetric analysis as opposed to an integral analysis which would measure all the aspects of the given induction system.

I think Rich (T) is saying is that it will run...maybe just not very efficiently...I might add....respectfully. Can't address why the stroked motor won't work very well with D-jet but you can do some integral math to figure it out once you really understand how D-jet works. My calculus is a bit rusty.

Sounds like Jake has already done some quantitative research on the VE of the type IV and knows what is optimal.

With respect to MS.... I have been reading some threads recently and without doing my own research on MS....sounds like some are having trouble understanding how this is accomplished...(including myself) and spending a lot of time tuning it later without a core understanding of how to map the VE curve and then fine tuning it.

Like Rich said there is no out of the box solution.

My two bits...however I am planning my own build so I always can learn from others.

1. dave hunt had nightmares trying to get even a modified djet system w/a bigger tb and megasquirt to function in a 2270.

2. no one has mentioned the need for a better exhaust system than heat exchangers to get your moneys worth out of a 2270. whichever path you choose on that bring $$.

3. you can build a 2056 for FAR less money. still buy the right premium heads for your application.

4. people seem to treat jake rudely if not like a tool. then a valuable asset has had enough and plays elsewhere. unfortunately.