Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Dry sump systems
914World.com > The 914 Forums > The Paddock
moggy
It's time I moved out of the dark ages and got myself a dry sump system on the rallycar. What's everyone using? Any pictures of installations? especially with the stock cooling. My concern is that I'll have to do some major surgery on the fan shroud (4 cylinder engine) as any dry sump pump will sit so far proud that I'll have to cut a hole in the fan shroud. Really interested to see what everyone has done. beerchug.gif
tomeric914
I was going to go dry sump with the four, but switching to a six killed two birds with one stone. More power AND a dry sump. beerchug.gif

However, since you run rallies with yours, this would likely put you into a different class.
McMark
I bought a TypeI Auto-Stick oil pump with fits in the stock location and has a secondary pump. It would still take some creative plumbing to make it all work and I have no idea how well it would work. But it's something to keep in mind.

IPB Image
Matt Romanowski
I would be concerned with the scavenge on that pump.
moggy
Thanks for the feedback so far guys. I've done a bit of Google time. Looks like CB Performance do the kind of one I need i.e. one that doesn't need a number fo scavenge points drilled into the engine - nice a simple bolt on solution. Anyone else running this?

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetail...ductCode=1745bk

Good price too..

Excellent info on installation of the above can be found here:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.ph...15&t=141653

Most importantly... does anyone know if this pump fits behind the standard 914 fanshroud and if it fits to a Type4 without any mods?

If so.... I'm good to go :-)
bam914
Get a pump from Thorsten Pieper. It is a 2 stage unit made from billet Al. Very nice. It will fit behind the fan, you just to notch the fan shroud for it.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
ChrisFoley
I use the CB 2 rotor pumps.
The front inlet and outlet ports are a bit too restrictive imo, and the fittings/hoses will interfere with stock 914 engine mounting brackets.

The pump gears aren't that long, meaning they don't move a large volume of oil, so I do everything I can to improve the flow wherever I think there's a restriction in each port, chamber and orifice of the pump.
The brackets can be clearanced but it will still be tight.
I'm pretty sure the cooling shroud will fit but it will be nearly impossible to attach/remove hoses at the pump once the engine is fully assembled.
Randal
QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Jun 23 2013, 03:39 PM) *

I use the CB 2 rotor pumps.
The front inlet and outlet ports are a bit too restrictive imo, and the fittings/hoses will interfere with stock 914 engine mounting brackets.

The pump gears aren't that long, meaning they don't move a large volume of oil, so I do everything I can to improve the flow wherever I think there's a restriction in each port, chamber and orifice of the pump.
The brackets can be clearanced but it will still be tight.
I'm pretty sure the cooling shroud will fit but it will be nearly impossible to attach/remove hoses at the pump once the engine is fully assembled.


Do you get additional HP by running a dry sump oiling system? And if the answer is yes, how much on a Type IV?
dlestep
QUOTE(Randal @ Jun 23 2013, 10:25 PM) *

Do you get additional HP by running a dry sump oiling system? And if the answer is yes, how much on a Type IV?


I would estimate 8 to 10 hp at the upper range of the rpm. Which is okay in my book, because oil has two jobs in our engines.
Lubrication and cooling. It would be well worth it, because all of the check marks are on the positive side, even with having to manage 10+ quarts of oil.
moggy
QUOTE(bam914 @ Jun 23 2013, 02:37 PM) *

Get a pump from Thorsten Pieper. It is a 2 stage unit made from billet Al. Very nice. It will fit behind the fan, you just to notch the fan shroud for it.



Very nice. Where do you buy that from and how much is it? Google doesn't give me much on the name.

Also, does it interfere with the engine mount, like Chris says about the CB? I'm guessing it would as the in/out are in the same place.
bam914
It was over $400.00. He is in Germany. You do need to modify the engine mount. Are you on Facebook? I can contact him there.
r_towle
If you go to the 911 cooling shroud, everything fits just fine
moggy
QUOTE(bam914 @ Jun 24 2013, 07:43 AM) *

It was over $400.00. He is in Germany. You do need to modify the engine mount. Are you on Facebook? I can contact him there.


I'm not on Facebook, does he have a telephone number or website/email. I can't seem to find anything on Google. Also, do you have any pictures of the mods you had to do on the engine mounts? the photo's of the fan shroud modifications are really useful - Thanks smile.gif
moggy
I'm going for the Thorsten Pieper pump (Thanks Blake for hooking me up with him). It's got some larger gears than the CB one

Piper - Suction=38mm, Pressure=26mm

CB - Suction=26mm, Pressure=21

for my application I think it's best to go with the bigger oil mover biggrin.gif

Going to be looking at the Oil Tank location and available tank options this weekend. Will keep you all posted.
moggy
Quick question.....

What do I do with the current oil in/out? Currently they are just to the right of the old oil filter take off. Do I simply just block them off like in the below photo?

IPB Image
yeahmag
My build shows most everything you need to know:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=165464&hl=
stugray
Anyone have complete diagrams?

I have read most of the threads from above or from the search, but very few have a diagram that shows where every single connection goes.

What would be really nice is one that shows the difference between just "full flow" and "dry sump".

Stu
yeahmag
Click to view attachment
stugray
That helps but it doesnt show the other half.
That diagram does not include any of the actual engine lubrication system.

(To be honest, all that diagram shows is how to have a nice oil reservoir that does not come in contact with the engine oil in any way ;-) I hope no-one is running it exactly like that....

I assume that the CB pump is the dual (4 gear type), so the 'main' pump body must scavenge oil from the case sump and pump it out through.....:
A - the oil filter housing bracket (requires a block off plate or threading the case)
B - the oil pressure relief housing hole (requires some special adapter fitting- thread = TBD)
C - the oil cooler bracket (requires a block off plate or threading the case).
( all of the above after running through some of the oil galley passages )

Also, after looking at the 914-6 oil system, the above does not seem to be optimal in that:
in the 914-6 version
IPB Image

, the scavenge pump blows directly into the tank.
I would think that foam would be less effective at cooling if it goes through a cooler.

the above diagram does not seem to be optimal in that The extra pump is being used to ONLY circulate through the filter, cooler, and back to the tank.
I thought one of the main reasons to run a dry sump was to use the extra pump "loop" to run uninterrupted (read no air bubbles) back to the engine oiling system.
The diagram does nothing to help there.

After thinking about it for a while it seems the best design is:

Use a 4 gear pump (one set of gears works exactly like the stock pump, no block-off).
Stock-like-pump-gears just scavenge from the engine sump and blows out through an (optional remote or) stock oil filter location into a catch tank.
No pressure relief required since it is open ended into the catch tank

Extra pump gears (external to the stock pump - might require extra clearance) pull in through bottom of catch tank and blow through:
Oil cooler
Additional filter (if desired)
Then back to engine lubrication system at high pressure.

So the diagram above still only addresses a small piece of the puzzle.

I will try to draw up the various options for the system, but will take some time.

It seems that most of the confusion about these systems is the lack of clear plumbing diagrams.

Stu
john rogers
Some things to remember about dry sump systems.
- They are not cheap, the use of braided Earl's -12 lines alone is a large expense. A top of the line cooler is not cheap either.

- The suction pump has to be higher capacity that the pressure pump and when you get above 4K RPM the crankcase will usually become under a vacuum. The valve cover gaskets will need to be held in place or they can get sucked loose so most times a vent is added to each valve cover.

- The oil level in the sump tank has to be figured when hot and level, much like a regular Porsche dry sump in a 911, otherwise the oil will find a way to blow out the sump tank.

- Which brings us to a puke tank, it needs to be large and able to handle blow by if the oil level gets too high.

Good luck
moggy
QUOTE(john rogers @ Jul 7 2013, 05:28 PM) *

Some things to remember about dry sump systems.
- They are not cheap, the use of braided Earl's -12 lines alone is a large expense. A top of the line cooler is not cheap either.

- The suction pump has to be higher capacity that the pressure pump and when you get above 4K RPM the crankcase will usually become under a vacuum. The valve cover gaskets will need to be held in place or they can get sucked loose so most times a vent is added to each valve cover.

- The oil level in the sump tank has to be figured when hot and level, much like a regular Porsche dry sump in a 911, otherwise the oil will find a way to blow out the sump tank.

- Which brings us to a puke tank, it needs to be large and able to handle blow by if the oil level gets too high.

Good luck


Thanks John

I've ordered a pump from Thorsten Pieper (similar design to CB one but bigger and better). I already have a quality front mount cooler and remote filter in the front boot. I can't buy an off the shelf tank (3 gallon) that will fit anywhere suitable, so I'm having someone make me a custom one that will fit in the engine bay just behind my seat.
moggy
QUOTE(moggy @ Jun 28 2013, 10:42 AM) *

Quick question.....

What do I do with the current oil in/out? Currently they are just to the right of the old oil filter take off. Do I simply just block them off like in the below photo?

IPB Image


Unless I missed something, I'm still looking for an answer to this question. Also note that the oil filter take off on my engine is not like the above example engine photo - it has a block off plate on it (not sure if that makes any difference).

Thanks again for everyone's help on this - always learning smile.gif
ChrisFoley
You will need to loop them together, not block them off.
Otherwise the pressure pump will hit a dead end and no oil will go to the bearings.
Another option would be to make a passage in the filter blockoff plate and plug the ports as in the picture.
moggy
QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Jul 8 2013, 01:54 PM) *

You will need to loop them together, not block them off.
Otherwise the pressure pump will hit a dead end and no oil will go to the bearings.
Another option would be to make a passage in the filter blockoff plate and plug the ports as in the picture.


Awesome Chris. That's exactly what I needed to know and confirms what I suspected. I'll try to source a block off plate that has some pass through machined into it. Thanks
moggy
QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Jul 8 2013, 01:54 PM) *

You will need to loop them together, not block them off.
Otherwise the pressure pump will hit a dead end and no oil will go to the bearings.
Another option would be to make a passage in the filter blockoff plate and plug the ports as in the picture.


This should do it I reckon.....

http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=241&xSec=103
ChrisFoley
That looks like just the ticket.
moggy
QUOTE(bam914 @ Jun 24 2013, 07:43 AM) *

It was over $400.00. He is in Germany. You do need to modify the engine mount. Are you on Facebook? I can contact him there.


Hi Blake

Finally got to the stage of fitting this now. Tank is in, pump is in. Now to the stage of making modded engine mounts. Got any photos of what you did here before I start going down a certain route.

Cheers

Moggy
bam914
QUOTE(moggy @ Dec 8 2013, 01:59 PM) *

QUOTE(bam914 @ Jun 24 2013, 07:43 AM) *

It was over $400.00. He is in Germany. You do need to modify the engine mount. Are you on Facebook? I can contact him there.


Hi Blake

Finally got to the stage of fitting this now. Tank is in, pump is in. Now to the stage of making modded engine mounts. Got any photos of what you did here before I start going down a certain route.

Cheers

Moggy


Never got to that point. Sorry
moggy
QUOTE(bam914 @ Dec 9 2013, 07:44 PM) *

Never got to that point. Sorry


No worries beerchug.gif

So, last night I made a start on making some custom mounts to work around the pump.

This is what we're up against.... I've used some pipe tails that I had lying around to give me an idea of what I need to work around, as you can see below the in/out is exactly where the standard engine mounts would normally sit.

IPB Image

I laid the engine bar and mounts in front so you can see exactly the issues

IPB Image

So first thing to do is cut off the mounts from the back plate, so I can mount them below the in/out of the pump. Firstly I had to measure how far the hole is from the backplate to ensure that when it's all welded back on it's the same distance from the engine. Works out a touch over an inch...

IPB Image

and a touch of centre from the top mount hole

IPB Image

Next job is to cut the mounts off the back plate so the back plates look like the below. I tried to do it so that the cutting disk was as close to the backing plate as possible and I didn't eat into the mount too much, reason is because I want to re-use the mount when I weld it on later. Eating too much out of it with the cutting disk when cutting it off the backplate will mean it will sit too far back when welding it back on.

IPB Image

So now the back plates sit comfortably behind the pump. I've also placed the engine bar in the position it needs to sit in relation to the engine when in the car

IPB Image

Next step tonight is to start with tacking the mounts in the new lower location.

Here's some pictures I took while I was at it of the mod to the fan shroud and how much space there is behind it for the pipe tails.

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

Sorry for poor quality shots taken with my phone but photography is not a strong point biggrin.gif
Borderline
It's been a while since I did my engine build, but I remember the Type 4 oil pump being slight larger in diameter than the Type 1. I bought a pump from fat Performance that had an O-ring placed around the body to seal in the case. Are there oil pumps now that are designed for Type 4 engines? If not, how are you handling the size difference in pumps?
yeahmag
I used a single peace of strong angle iron and only captured the bottom two mount holes. It's a single piece and the engine bar is mounted directly to it with some heavy duty, thin isolating material I got from a buddy in the hydraulics business.

It's damn near impossible to see in this picture, but if you look close it's there.

Click to view attachment
moggy
Aaron - I looked at that option but decided against it for a number of reasons:

1 - The engine/gearbox needs to be really held in as strong as possible in the rallycar, all that heavy vibration and big hits really tests all mounting points out to the limit. For this reason I didn't feel comfortable only holding it all in on just the bottom 2 bolt holes

2 - With the vibrations experienced in rallying I wanted to have some kind of rubber seated engine mounts to absorb at least some of the pounding.

3 - I couldn't see how a straight bar was going to allow me to avoid the gear linkage.

For these reasons I went with the standard engine bar and modded mounts.

Last night I managed to find some good solid rubber machinery mounts that are ideal as engine mounts, they're even the same diameter - what are the chances of that eh? biggrin.gif

IPB Image

Using the mounts I cut of the back plates last night, I offered them up and found a problem on the right hand side - it now knocks into the old oil filler blockoff as you can see (the engine I'm using to mock everything up does not have the blockoff plate on, as you can see, but believe me it knocks into it). This means I'm going to need to shave off about 10mm from the right side of the mount to get it to fit.

IPB Image

On the left side, all is well, although I'll still shave off 10mm to match the other side. Whilst at this point I checked measurement away from the backplate again to ensure it's all still at the smidge over 1 inch. Still looking good.

IPB Image

You'll notice in the above to shots that there's gap between the mount and back plate, this was from the amount of metal the cutting disk bit out when I cut the mounts off the back plates earlier in the process. To fill in this gap and to also add strength to the mounts in their lower postions it's necessary to weld in a small additional plate, as you can see below:

IPB Image

IPB Image

And here's where we're up to at the moment. All tacked up roughly. Offered it up to the engine bar. All fits perfectly. Next steps - weld up what I have, clean it up, maybe add another strengthening gusset.

IPB Image

That's all for now folks santa_smiley.gif
pcar916
... as well you'll have to calculate the proper oil capacity. In other words, when does it need more, is it full, overfull? The 4 cylinder guys will chime in here. Six'ers check our oil levels in the tank. What about the fours? I've never considered that.

beerchug.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.