It's been 3+ years of nickel-and-dimeing in my garage while trying to be a (good) husband and dad. Car's on the rotisserie but hopefully will be on the ground in the spring. Motor's running on the floor beside it. Here are the general specs:
-'74 with typical rust but not sagging
-full Renegade setup; big clutch and axels, radiator, starter
-'66 283, .03 over
-fairly aggressive cam, 305 heads @ 55cc, 1.84 x 1.5
-2 bbl Holley on a Weiland 1-plane
-shorty headers and exhaust by me
-stock 901 trans
-300HP, 300 ft-lbs on Dyno 2000
-16 lb cap and 180 degree t-stat.

Latest adventure is timing and starting. It needs advance to start. When it's running and I back it down to low 30's degrees, it's hard to start and backfires. Sounds and responds great, though, and the Renegade setup keeps it between 175-190. My builder's got me checking for vacuum leaks and verifying (crudly) TDC. Anyone out there with similar experiences or general Chevy experience? This is my first water-cooled project. Here's a few pics, but I've got plenty more of rust repair, test fitting, radiator install, etc. If anyone needs some, I can post or take more.
Thanks
Ed

another pic

Well, I am not an expert, I have been there and done that. Your exhaust doesnt look like it is going to fit in the car the way you think it will. Your engine setup sounds very similar to mine. Same heads, 283 bored .30 over, same headers, same cooloing setup, same clutch same trans, but I went with a Performer manifold and Performer carb and a Rod Simpson cam. It's very responsive. What distributor are you running? I went with a Billet HEI from the GM Performance line. Parts from any dealer. Its also vacuum advance. You should disconnect the vacuum hose when you set the timing and then connect it back up after it is set. Mine starts right up everytime. As for my exhaust system, I took it over to Mesa Muffler to have them build mine for me. Outstanding job. Single Camaro type muffler with dual in and dual out. Sounds very nice. Not too loud. I am old and like to hear my music when I drive.

I built the exhaust with the motor installed. I straightened out the shift rod, but it was hitting the engine adapter, so I welded in a 45 degree section to clear it and add some length. Then I found out that I would hit the HD tall oil filter, so I'll have to go with the shorter version. Actually, I need to double check this or I may have a suprise when I put it back in.
I'm using an Accel pointless distributor; specs are 24 deg mechanical advance in by 3000 rpm, 10 degrees of vacuum advance at 10 in Hg. Any idea what the recommended full advance should be for this street setup?
Thanks
Ed

another pic

and another

Oh yeah, when I disconnect the vacuum advance, it stalls. Something isn't right. Any pics of your exhaust setup?
Ed

When I disconnect the vacume advance it stalls for me... Think of it this way... with more throttle, will there be less or more vacume? I think its normal. Might not be.. lol

Elocke, what mufflers you using? Im trying to decide which one's to use... I think I'll just get a pair of turbo mufflers...


I went with a remote oil filter.. And I'll be putting an oil cooler on it as well. I figure with the 901 trani, crusing at 3200 rpm's, the radiator will keep the engine cool, but the oil is going to fry.

Andrew

Ed, Check this thread for pictures of how my exhaust was done. I am pretty happy with it all the way around.

Exhaust thread

ED
Nice job on the exhaust I'm guessing you made those out of mandel bent u bends. Can't tell what size the pipe is but looks like 2.5"

Bob

Verified the cam and distributor timing correct? Pull the valve cover check #1 TDC, both valves closed and 0 on your timing mark? Is your timing mark set correctly for the balancer you're using?

Valves adjusted OK? Not too tight? Correct coil for that Accel distributor? Needs 0.4 ohms or less on primary and no dropping resistor (I don't think this would cause a timing issue of course). Is that cam too aggressive - poor idle? Low vacuum at idle? Should run fine at 0 deg. no vacuum or mechanical advance.

Sounds like a timing issue.

Verify that your dizzy is installed correctly too!!

Sounds like you are to retarded, thus when you pull off the vac adv at idle, you stall. The most vacuum is at lower rpms....

I would go over all the timing marks, crank, cam, dizzy and check them against TDC of #1 piston (this can be done by removing valve cover and making damn sure both valves are not being depressed by the rocker arms at all.

I am not sure, but you may be able to verify that you are really at TDC with a dial indicator inserted through the spark plug hole.

Rich

You can find TDC using a piston stop. You can weld a bolt on to an old spark plug and thread that into #1. Turn the engine by hand and mark the balancer (a reference mark to the timing cover) at the place where you hit the stop. Now turn it the other way and mark it again. Remove the stop and TDC is right between the two marks. I have one in my toolbox somewhere I can take a picture of it if you want.

I agree that your timing is too retarded. If you over advance the SBC, the starter will turn over the enging very slowly. This is common in SBCs. That also explains the low vacuum stall.
You will love the car when its running. I have abput 15000 miles on mine. I just had Brad Mayeur rebuild my tranny with the tall gears and it was worth it. The gears are great for the V8, wish I would have done it sooner.
Just finished up the five bolt conversion this weekend too.
Grand total: $7650 including everything. Im done for now...
Mark

Recently light has been shead on the fact that the timing mark on the renegade harmonic ballencer is incorrect. To time your car put marks on the flywheel at the correct locations. this issue has been presented to renegate and they said they would put a note in their instructions regarding this issue.

To time your car I (and they) suggest making marks on the flywheel. Make it so you can see the mark through the gap on the top of the transmission. Cut a hole in your trunk floor so you can see the timing mark when the engine/tranny are installed. I'll do this when I replace my tranny again.

Guys, thanks for the feedback and complement! The mufflers are cheap Thrush turbos from Advance Auto and seem kind of loud. The exhaust is 2.5"; U, 45, and flange from JC Whitney. They were cheap too. Skline, nice exhaust. In hindsight, if I had routed the pipes under the axels I could have done your option or dual mufflers per side like Mike Z's. We'll see how it sounds when it's on the road.
I knew I'd have to confirm TDC so I made a TDC checker like 914GT suggested (thanks). See pic. It worked like a charm. It's 5 degrees off, so my TDC marks on the balancer and flywheel are really showing 5 degrees advanced. I was kinda hoping it would be more off. I'm assuming the builder set the cam timing to 0 and properly adjusted the valves. I'm not familiar with the Chevy valve adjustment, but I can just spin the pushrods with my fingers. The rockers will move but are not "loose" or floppy. I'll have to read up on this.
My coil and distributor are both Accel and are compatable. Vacuum at around 900 rpm is 14 inHg and pretty steady. Cam specs are: 291 dur, .447 lift, 114 lobe separation, 110 intake center, 118 exhaust center. This yields an overlap of 63, which, according to David Visard's book on engines, has reasonable street manners.
My builder wanted me to check TDC and check for vacuum leaks, so I'll run it this weekend and test with a can of starter fluid. The carb adapter I'm using is a cheap one, but I have a nice phenolic one from Summit that I may try for the heck of it. I'll post my progress.
Thanks
Ed

Here's a pic of the Dyno2000 graph of the motor. It's got the same HP at 2000 rpm as my '70 1.7, but 200+ ft-lbs!

pressed the wrong button

That 283 looks like it will scream! Great job on the conversion. I want to hear driving impressions when you get it on the road.

Looks like some serious progress, Ed. Just get some better
tires than on your 1.7

Hey is that bore size right for a 283 with .30 over...it shows 3.905 ?

Doug C

It seems like with a 283 or 302 SBC you don't really need to change out the 901. I have been asking around, but from what I have heard, the 283 or 302 live pretty comforatably at 4k rpm's for cruising the highways.

Yo- Elocke (Hehe)...

who made your cam and where'd you get it from? Also, what spring/lifter set up are you using?

Doug C

Ed, great to see your progress.

Here's a picture that was sent to me showing the approximate location of the hole to view the flywheel timing mark from the trunk. I'm sure you can get by with a smaller hole. This gives you a good idea of where to start.

Best wishes,

Wayne, great to hear from you! Finger's all better now? Don't tell me you're already on your second conversion! I'd like to hear about it. Thanks for the pic..it's the only one I've seen of such an access hole. You confirmed my thoughts that the hole needs to be partially in the trunk floor and partially in the bulkhead.
Mark; you're right about the tires...they're balloons. I may try to strech the fenders for 205's. Flares are not an option for now.
The stock 283 bore is 3.875. I think my block is clearanced from the factory for the 327 3.25" crank, which implies that I've got enough meat to go to a 4" bore if I want. Not all 283's have this feature.
Not sure who manufactures the cam or lifters (hydraulic)...my builder spec'd them, but I'm curious myself. Here's a pic of the cam card. Springs are LT1's; a must, according to the builder, for the rev's and cam. Standard 1.5 ratio rockers.
I am a little concerned about the rev's at highway speeds, but I've heard more positive's than negatives about it so I'll wait and see. Hopefully it's just a noise issue. My 1.7 runs around 3400 rpm @ 80, on 195/70's. I'd like to go to 16" rims eventually to keep a maintain a bigger diameter and reduce the balloon look.
Ed

Pic of an Excel spreadsheet of stock gear ratios with 195/70 x 15, which make my speedo pretty accurate.

Anyone know how my cam compares to Rod Simson's?
Ed

I'd be interested in knowing that as well. Seems our cam is very close to Eds.

Ad Duration In 291
Ad Duration Ex 291
DUR. @ .050” In 218
DUR. @ .050” Ex 218
Cam Lift In 0.303
Cam Lift Ex 0.303
Valve Lift In 0.455
Valve Lift Ex 0.455
Lobe Centers In 105
Lobe Centers Ex 115

After looking at few used and abused small block chevy engines - I am thinking it might be better to start with a remanufactured 283 long block:

http://www.rebuilt-auto-engines.com/cgi-bi...-18104104205.7f

I am fine with the stock horsepower - I would be happy rumbling along quietly, but with enough reserve to quickly blow a door or two off when necessary.

ON TO THE TEDIOUS V8 NEWBIE QUESTIONS:

Do the higher highway RPM requirements of this 283/901 tranny combo mean that I should stay away from hydraulic lifters?

What intake/carb pairing would you suggest. (I will probably have a fairly restrictive exhaust, as well.)

Why not use an electric water pump? Is it cost, reliability, performance? Seems to me that it would be healthy for an engine to run a water pump a minute or so after shutdown to avoid steam pockets.

In a nutshell, what is unique about the Renegade cooling system? What is the radiator configuration?

Thanks,

>Do the higher highway RPM requirements of this 283/901 tranny combo mean that I should stay away from hydraulic lifters?

No, hydraulics are fine. Go with heavier valve springs with higher lift cams to reduce valve float. I doubt if you'll be running anywhere near the rpms where you'll lose power.

>What intake/carb pairing would you suggest. (I will probably have a fairly restrictive exhaust, as well.)

You'll probably better off using a small cfm 4 barrel carb especially with a 283 and stock heads, or even a two barrel. Edelbrock Performer intake should be OK. Try to choose a combination so you don't need to modify your engine lid with air cleaner on.

>Why not use an electric water pump? Is it cost, reliability, performance? Seems to me that it would be healthy for an engine to run a water pump a minute or so after shutdown to avoid steam pockets.

The electric pump I'm using is great in my opinion. I have no problems, if anything it works too well. I don't run it after shutdown. No steam pockets form, system is under pressure with mix of antifreeze. Cost is competitive if not lower than belt pumps. Reliability - well, the motors and seals are rated at thousands of hours. Replacement motors and seal kits are available if an emergency repair is a concern.

>In a nutshell, what is unique about the Renegade cooling system? What is the radiator configuration?

Nice system but pricey. My DH radiator system runs cool here in the desert., and it gets real hot here in Tucson in the summertime.

Thanks for the advice.

Do ya think there would be room for this:

This is a pretty cool topic, sorry Paul for yaking so much about the 283, but heck, seems to be the engine of conversation at the moment.

So, I have been poking around a little myself and after looking at the above dyno chart. Seems you could build a nice 283 to rev pretty safely to 7k rpm's with a small 4bl to some 330tq and maybe 320hp. Dang, that seems like it would actually work really well with the 901 gears. Heck, I don't spin more than 6k on a shift with my 2.2T six anyway.

I think my only real concern would be wieght. But with aluminum heads/intake that takes away much of the "High" wieght.

Hmm, hmm. I think I am just thinking about this too much.

There are like 5 283 for sale in the local paper all complete runners for under $200. I don't think the muscle car guys like them?

No way, look closely at more pics of 914-8 cars. They look like they are using low rise manifolds, no stacks and normal hieght air cleaners.

Dan, I have a 283 sitting in my garage right now that will be going into my 914, so yeah I love this topic. But you mentioned aluminum heads for it and I don't think anyone makes them to fit the smaller valve configuration, least I haven't found any info. Seems like everyone with a 283 either ports the stock heads or use 305 heads with 55cc chambers. Of course you could save a little weight with F/G deck lids, if just a little.

Zylinder, I'd love to use those stacks but they are expensive, right? I'd like to see them come up through the engine lid and have them covered with a lexan bubble that's open at the back end, kind of like the carb protection on old Ferrari GTOs (or whatever). I think that would be cool!

Doug C

327 then?

Dan there is a Chalon car and V-8 kit ,sitting on a trailer.
Has been there for 10 years .The body is junk but the chalon kit is barely installed. Not to far from your house.

Sorry I couldnt resist Root seems close to doing one of these V-8 conversions

Can't be the white one then. Hmm, e-mail me.

Then I guess this one might be a tight fit, too.

http://www.piercemanifolds.com

Might just be yah!

I would really love to run a radical intake manifold... then fuel injection using the webbers...

But In all honesty. How much do you think those things cost???

5k??

lol

emmm No.

Zylinder,

Chris Julian has webers for his V8 but will use a std carb so he doesn't have to tune them. Plus, he want's to be able to close his lid.

Are you building a conversion? The Renegade rad is built by Ron Davis radiators but Renegade probably spec'd it and then add the shrouding and parts. It's a great turn key system if you don't have time or resources to assemble your own AND have ~$1000.

Got more pics of your car? Those lights are interesting.
Felix

Thanks for the info on the radiator. I wasn't pondering a conversion until I wandered in here.

Sorry no other pix just yet - the lights are merely some Photoshop trickery.
The lights are off a VW SP2 - a Brazillian car of the same era.

As of tonight, I think I've got the timing issue under control. I was retaaaded, as many of you suspected! Thank You! I decided to just disconnect the vacuum advance and try it. It started rough at first, so I advanced it until it would idle, but it was still plenty retarded, so I just set the initial at idle to 12 to get 32 total at >3000 rpm, which is what my builder targeted for the street. Badabing! I confirmed a ported source with a vacuum guage and connected the vacuum advance; it seems to runs and start good so I guess I'll leave it and see how it drives, if I can ever get the @#&$% body ready!
In the pic below, the big port on the left is full manifold vacuum for PCV and the like, while the un-capped one on the right is ported and is where I ran the vac advance. I haven't checked the one with the red cap yet.
Ed

While I'm waiting for the builder to bless the engine so I can move it aside, I decided to try to quiet the exhaust a little. I bought baffled tips, which helped, then found some short mufflers that appear to be glass pack type. They're 6", but I think I could have fit the 8" version. I only had 11" to play with, and the smallest was 3" dia, so I has to fit adapters. I should be done in a few days so we'll see.
I also finally rebuilt the front M calipers and refurbished the front 914-6 struts, including new Bilsteins, rotors, and bearings. It'll have new ball joints and polysomething bushings with a 21mm bar. Anti-sway bar will have to wait for now.
Rears are 914-6 rebuilt. Still have to buy the rotors. Any advise on where to get 914-6 rotors? I only can find them at Pelican. 225lb coilovers with threaded collars and new bushings for the rear.
Question: Since my brake setup is basically that of a 914-6, does that mean I can't use a T and need a 914-6 proportioning valve? Master cyl is 19mm, which I assume the 914-6 had. Not sure if the part #'s are different between -4 and -6...I'll have to do some homework.
Ed

Suspension and brake pics.

Nice! clean and shiney!
Felix

QUOTE (elocke @ Jan 5 2005, 07:58 PM)

While I'm waiting for the builder to bless the engine so I can move it aside, I decided to try to quiet the exhaust a little. I bought baffled tips, which helped, then found some short mufflers that appear to be glass pack type. They're 6", but I think I could have fit the 8" version. I only had 11" to play with, and the smallest was 3" dia, so I has to fit adapters.

Who makes that muffler?

I bought them from CMW raceparts. Here's a link to the page. I think they're made by Schoenfeld.
http://cmwraceparts.com/Headers/headers74.html

Have you run the engine with the glass packs installed? Did it make a difference? I wouldn't mind quieting my 327 just a wee bit more...

Eric

I don't have both sides done yet...hopefully over the weekend. I held one as best I could against the baffled tips and it made a little difference, but it was very leaky.